On November 10 2011 09:04 Ahaha wrote: claiming savior "single-handedly" "almost" "killed e-sport" is pathetic. He did it for himself. E-sport falling or not is up to E-sport. It's like claiming any scammer "single-handedly almost killed the internet" or any stealer "single-handedly killed humanity".
People are stupid as always.
Where did I said that he killed e-sports as a whole? Read again. I said he almost killed BW scene.
And FYI, BW was dying, it's just that he accelerated the process.
On November 10 2011 04:14 JiPrime wrote: 마빡이새키덜 여기서도 설치냐 ㅅㅂ /rage I've said this before and I'll say it again. You are talking about wishing to let a scoundrel -who single-handedly almost killed the successful BW E-sports scene with his insatiable desire for luxury items- to ruin another healthy growing SC2 E-sports scene. This is the person the cemented the stupid idea that video games are nothing but harmful to the Korean society, especially among the older people who were starting to accept it as it is: a healthy competition with honor and pride. Remember this? I shed many tears when I saw this. P.S. And Ivan Basso didn't cause THIS much harm to the sports he played in, even with his level of faggotry.
I won't argue Savior et. al. tarnished the image. But do say he "almost single-handedly killed the successful BW E-sports scene" is ridiculous. It was already on the decline, already being downsized. Bad world economy, a commercially successful sequel (I know it hasn't been a runaway success in Korea), and the fact that it's getting old.
And I am squarely on the side of BW. Just being a realist, not an emotional zealot who thinks the scene would be thriving without the scandal.
The fact that he was the one the most popular bonjwa of all time made the damage worst to the point it can't be recovered. And you can't deny that he accelerated the process of the scene dying. I'm not blaming on Maregi for the lackluster success of SC2 in Korea, btw.
I agree with your main idea. If he came back, he would always be the one looking for redemption, and he wouldn't find it, because he's bad compared to modern pros. He would never be very famous again, and he would serve as an example. But I think they should spare themselves future credibility and make a rule book about transgressions and punishments. The scene is young so not everything is together, but my opinion is that it should mirror sports leagues. Because the level of competition is the same and the spirit is the same. Three chances. First, two year ban. Then, eight year (essentially life) ban from competition. Then lifetime.
On November 10 2011 04:14 JiPrime wrote: 마빡이새키덜 여기서도 설치냐 ㅅㅂ /rage I've said this before and I'll say it again. You are talking about wishing to let a scoundrel -who single-handedly almost killed the successful BW E-sports scene with his insatiable desire for luxury items- to ruin another healthy growing SC2 E-sports scene. This is the person the cemented the stupid idea that video games are nothing but harmful to the Korean society, especially among the older people who were starting to accept it as it is: a healthy competition with honor and pride. Remember this? I shed many tears when I saw this. P.S. And Ivan Basso didn't cause THIS much harm to the sports he played in, even with his level of faggotry.
I won't argue Savior et. al. tarnished the image. But do say he "almost single-handedly killed the successful BW E-sports scene" is ridiculous. It was already on the decline, already being downsized. Bad world economy, a commercially successful sequel (I know it hasn't been a runaway success in Korea), and the fact that it's getting old.
And I am squarely on the side of BW. Just being a realist, not an emotional zealot who thinks the scene would be thriving without the scandal.
The fact that he was the one the most popular bonjwa of all time made the damage worst to the point it can't be recovered. And you can't deny that he accelerated the process of the scene dying. I'm not blaming on Maregi for the lackluster success of SC2 in Korea, btw.
I agree with your main idea. If he came back, he would always be the one looking for redemption, and he wouldn't find it, because he's bad compared to modern pros. He would never be very famous again, and he would serve as an example. But I think they should spare themselves future credibility and make a rule book about transgressions and punishments. The scene is young so not everything is together, but my opinion is that it should mirror sports leagues. Because the level of competition is the same and the spirit is the same. Three chances. First, two year ban. Then, eight year (essentially life) ban from competition. Then lifetime.
Which sport gives a player three chances for match fixing?
On November 10 2011 10:59 Talent.L wrote: holyshit, that Afreeca highlight video...i gotta say... i have never seen him pull any of those moves in proleague -_- i feel trolled.
The difference in competition between proleague and fish or wherever he's playing those games is a little different.
On November 10 2011 04:14 JiPrime wrote: 마빡이새키덜 여기서도 설치냐 ㅅㅂ /rage I've said this before and I'll say it again. You are talking about wishing to let a scoundrel -who single-handedly almost killed the successful BW E-sports scene with his insatiable desire for luxury items- to ruin another healthy growing SC2 E-sports scene. This is the person the cemented the stupid idea that video games are nothing but harmful to the Korean society, especially among the older people who were starting to accept it as it is: a healthy competition with honor and pride. Remember this? I shed many tears when I saw this. P.S. And Ivan Basso didn't cause THIS much harm to the sports he played in, even with his level of faggotry.
I won't argue Savior et. al. tarnished the image. But do say he "almost single-handedly killed the successful BW E-sports scene" is ridiculous. It was already on the decline, already being downsized. Bad world economy, a commercially successful sequel (I know it hasn't been a runaway success in Korea), and the fact that it's getting old.
And I am squarely on the side of BW. Just being a realist, not an emotional zealot who thinks the scene would be thriving without the scandal.
The fact that he was the one the most popular bonjwa of all time made the damage worst to the point it can't be recovered. And you can't deny that he accelerated the process of the scene dying. I'm not blaming on Maregi for the lackluster success of SC2 in Korea, btw.
I agree with your main idea. If he came back, he would always be the one looking for redemption, and he wouldn't find it, because he's bad compared to modern pros. He would never be very famous again, and he would serve as an example. But I think they should spare themselves future credibility and make a rule book about transgressions and punishments. The scene is young so not everything is together, but my opinion is that it should mirror sports leagues. Because the level of competition is the same and the spirit is the same. Three chances. First, two year ban. Then, eight year (essentially life) ban from competition. Then lifetime.
Which sport gives a player three chances for match fixing?
On November 10 2011 10:59 Talent.L wrote: holyshit, that Afreeca highlight video...i gotta say... i have never seen him pull any of those moves in proleague -_- i feel trolled.
The difference in competition between proleague and fish or wherever he's playing those games is a little different.
I didn't say for match fixing. I meant a system with penalties for rules transgressions in general. And because there is no precedent for this, they'd have to make up their own rules. In what sport is there a lifetime ban for the first rules offense of any type?
On November 10 2011 04:14 JiPrime wrote: 마빡이새키덜 여기서도 설치냐 ㅅㅂ /rage I've said this before and I'll say it again. You are talking about wishing to let a scoundrel -who single-handedly almost killed the successful BW E-sports scene with his insatiable desire for luxury items- to ruin another healthy growing SC2 E-sports scene. This is the person the cemented the stupid idea that video games are nothing but harmful to the Korean society, especially among the older people who were starting to accept it as it is: a healthy competition with honor and pride. Remember this? I shed many tears when I saw this. P.S. And Ivan Basso didn't cause THIS much harm to the sports he played in, even with his level of faggotry.
I won't argue Savior et. al. tarnished the image. But do say he "almost single-handedly killed the successful BW E-sports scene" is ridiculous. It was already on the decline, already being downsized. Bad world economy, a commercially successful sequel (I know it hasn't been a runaway success in Korea), and the fact that it's getting old.
And I am squarely on the side of BW. Just being a realist, not an emotional zealot who thinks the scene would be thriving without the scandal.
The fact that he was the one the most popular bonjwa of all time made the damage worst to the point it can't be recovered. And you can't deny that he accelerated the process of the scene dying. I'm not blaming on Maregi for the lackluster success of SC2 in Korea, btw.
I agree with your main idea. If he came back, he would always be the one looking for redemption, and he wouldn't find it, because he's bad compared to modern pros. He would never be very famous again, and he would serve as an example. But I think they should spare themselves future credibility and make a rule book about transgressions and punishments. The scene is young so not everything is together, but my opinion is that it should mirror sports leagues. Because the level of competition is the same and the spirit is the same. Three chances. First, two year ban. Then, eight year (essentially life) ban from competition. Then lifetime.
Which sport gives a player three chances for match fixing?
On November 10 2011 10:59 Talent.L wrote: holyshit, that Afreeca highlight video...i gotta say... i have never seen him pull any of those moves in proleague -_- i feel trolled.
In what sport is there a lifetime ban for the first rules offense of any type?
BW and SC2. And that's how it should be and always will be, because it is VERY VERY easy to cheat and very difficult to stop (illegal betting and match-fixing) in this kind of business.
On November 10 2011 04:14 JiPrime wrote: 마빡이새키덜 여기서도 설치냐 ㅅㅂ /rage I've said this before and I'll say it again. You are talking about wishing to let a scoundrel -who single-handedly almost killed the successful BW E-sports scene with his insatiable desire for luxury items- to ruin another healthy growing SC2 E-sports scene. This is the person the cemented the stupid idea that video games are nothing but harmful to the Korean society, especially among the older people who were starting to accept it as it is: a healthy competition with honor and pride. Remember this? I shed many tears when I saw this. P.S. And Ivan Basso didn't cause THIS much harm to the sports he played in, even with his level of faggotry.
I won't argue Savior et. al. tarnished the image. But do say he "almost single-handedly killed the successful BW E-sports scene" is ridiculous. It was already on the decline, already being downsized. Bad world economy, a commercially successful sequel (I know it hasn't been a runaway success in Korea), and the fact that it's getting old.
And I am squarely on the side of BW. Just being a realist, not an emotional zealot who thinks the scene would be thriving without the scandal.
The fact that he was the one the most popular bonjwa of all time made the damage worst to the point it can't be recovered. And you can't deny that he accelerated the process of the scene dying. I'm not blaming on Maregi for the lackluster success of SC2 in Korea, btw.
I agree with your main idea. If he came back, he would always be the one looking for redemption, and he wouldn't find it, because he's bad compared to modern pros. He would never be very famous again, and he would serve as an example. But I think they should spare themselves future credibility and make a rule book about transgressions and punishments. The scene is young so not everything is together, but my opinion is that it should mirror sports leagues. Because the level of competition is the same and the spirit is the same. Three chances. First, two year ban. Then, eight year (essentially life) ban from competition. Then lifetime.
Which sport gives a player three chances for match fixing?
On November 10 2011 10:59 Talent.L wrote: holyshit, that Afreeca highlight video...i gotta say... i have never seen him pull any of those moves in proleague -_- i feel trolled.
In what sport is there a lifetime ban for the first rules offense of any type?
BW and SC2. And that's how it should be and always will be, because it is VERY VERY easy to cheat and very difficult to stop (illegal betting and match-fixing) in this kind of business.
I think it's equally easy to cheat and equally hard to catch as in any other sport. And match fixing isn't even as bad as hacking. Hacking directly reduces the amount of money another player gets. Match fixing affects the amount a group of bookies gets (some of which may be players, but those who play to win and do win still get the most winnings).
Bottom line, since I have my stance and you all have yours and neither of them are going to change KeSPA's or GOM's policy regarding match fixing (which I assume isn't all that intensely codified, but if it is and someone has a source I'd accept that I'm wrong on that point), I think there's no problem for any of the past players to stream or compete in any event that will let them in. After all, if they repeat-offend 1) They'll just lose games and 2) THEN no one would ever trust them ever again.
On November 09 2011 22:29 Rojam wrote: To be fair, there are pro sc2 players, who were cheating in bw and got caught. I won't drop any names, but they've gotten a second chance as well.
what? name me some, i'm interested
I'm pretty sure he means people who map-hacked or abused something. You should know these foreign players who did so.
nah sorry.. i don't read foreign news :<
but if they are caught, why are they allowed to play again?
Holy shitzu batman, those muta splits O.O I don't even care if he was involved in match-fixing, get this man in a booth!
Seriously, what happened to second chances? NFL quarterbacks get away with come crazy stuff and still play (ALA Vick and i think Brady? whoever was sexting and got caught, idk :/ ), albeit not something on the scale of match-fixing. I never followed pro-BW, but all the highlights i've seen of this guy are just amazing, i would love to see him in SC2 or BW once again. Kid's got skillz
On a somewhat related note, I never realized all the innovative little stuff u could do in BW as opposed to SC2. I'm still gonna play mainly SC2, but I think Browder and his crew REALLY need to sit down and take extensive notes on videos like this before they start designing expansions...
On November 09 2011 22:29 Rojam wrote: To be fair, there are pro sc2 players, who were cheating in bw and got caught. I won't drop any names, but they've gotten a second chance as well.
what? name me some, i'm interested
I'm pretty sure he means people who map-hacked or abused something. You should know these foreign players who did so.
nah sorry.. i don't read foreign news :<
but if they are caught, why are they allowed to play again?
Hard to say. All the players i can think of who did something like this are (or were) in a pretty respectable/big team(still in SC2). So i guess they have been forgiven. But IMO what they did isn't nowhere near as bad as what Savior and co did.
On November 10 2011 04:14 JiPrime wrote: 마빡이새키덜 여기서도 설치냐 ㅅㅂ /rage I've said this before and I'll say it again. You are talking about wishing to let a scoundrel -who single-handedly almost killed the successful BW E-sports scene with his insatiable desire for luxury items- to ruin another healthy growing SC2 E-sports scene. This is the person the cemented the stupid idea that video games are nothing but harmful to the Korean society, especially among the older people who were starting to accept it as it is: a healthy competition with honor and pride. Remember this? I shed many tears when I saw this. P.S. And Ivan Basso didn't cause THIS much harm to the sports he played in, even with his level of faggotry.
I won't argue Savior et. al. tarnished the image. But do say he "almost single-handedly killed the successful BW E-sports scene" is ridiculous. It was already on the decline, already being downsized. Bad world economy, a commercially successful sequel (I know it hasn't been a runaway success in Korea), and the fact that it's getting old.
And I am squarely on the side of BW. Just being a realist, not an emotional zealot who thinks the scene would be thriving without the scandal.
The fact that he was the one the most popular bonjwa of all time made the damage worst to the point it can't be recovered. And you can't deny that he accelerated the process of the scene dying. I'm not blaming on Maregi for the lackluster success of SC2 in Korea, btw.
I agree with your main idea. If he came back, he would always be the one looking for redemption, and he wouldn't find it, because he's bad compared to modern pros. He would never be very famous again, and he would serve as an example. But I think they should spare themselves future credibility and make a rule book about transgressions and punishments. The scene is young so not everything is together, but my opinion is that it should mirror sports leagues. Because the level of competition is the same and the spirit is the same. Three chances. First, two year ban. Then, eight year (essentially life) ban from competition. Then lifetime.
Which sport gives a player three chances for match fixing?
On November 10 2011 10:59 Talent.L wrote: holyshit, that Afreeca highlight video...i gotta say... i have never seen him pull any of those moves in proleague -_- i feel trolled.
The difference in competition between proleague and fish or wherever he's playing those games is a little different.
I didn't say for match fixing. I meant a system with penalties for rules transgressions in general. And because there is no precedent for this, they'd have to make up their own rules. In what sport is there a lifetime ban for the first rules offense of any type?
On November 10 2011 04:14 JiPrime wrote: 마빡이새키덜 여기서도 설치냐 ㅅㅂ /rage I've said this before and I'll say it again. You are talking about wishing to let a scoundrel -who single-handedly almost killed the successful BW E-sports scene with his insatiable desire for luxury items- to ruin another healthy growing SC2 E-sports scene. This is the person the cemented the stupid idea that video games are nothing but harmful to the Korean society, especially among the older people who were starting to accept it as it is: a healthy competition with honor and pride. Remember this? I shed many tears when I saw this. P.S. And Ivan Basso didn't cause THIS much harm to the sports he played in, even with his level of faggotry.
I won't argue Savior et. al. tarnished the image. But do say he "almost single-handedly killed the successful BW E-sports scene" is ridiculous. It was already on the decline, already being downsized. Bad world economy, a commercially successful sequel (I know it hasn't been a runaway success in Korea), and the fact that it's getting old.
And I am squarely on the side of BW. Just being a realist, not an emotional zealot who thinks the scene would be thriving without the scandal.
The fact that he was the one the most popular bonjwa of all time made the damage worst to the point it can't be recovered. And you can't deny that he accelerated the process of the scene dying. I'm not blaming on Maregi for the lackluster success of SC2 in Korea, btw.
I agree with your main idea. If he came back, he would always be the one looking for redemption, and he wouldn't find it, because he's bad compared to modern pros. He would never be very famous again, and he would serve as an example. But I think they should spare themselves future credibility and make a rule book about transgressions and punishments. The scene is young so not everything is together, but my opinion is that it should mirror sports leagues. Because the level of competition is the same and the spirit is the same. Three chances. First, two year ban. Then, eight year (essentially life) ban from competition. Then lifetime.
Which sport gives a player three chances for match fixing?
On November 10 2011 10:59 Talent.L wrote: holyshit, that Afreeca highlight video...i gotta say... i have never seen him pull any of those moves in proleague -_- i feel trolled.
The difference in competition between proleague and fish or wherever he's playing those games is a little different.
I didn't say for match fixing. I meant a system with penalties for rules transgressions in general. And because there is no precedent for this, they'd have to make up their own rules. In what sport is there a lifetime ban for the first rules offense of any type?
1) Touche, you set a decent precedent. 2) The scale of these things is huge (2,000,000 for the German one?) and hence they are major criminal activities as well.
On November 10 2011 14:24 Forester wrote: Holy shitzu batman, those muta splits O.O I don't even care if he was involved in match-fixing, get this man in a booth!
Seriously, what happened to second chances? NFL quarterbacks get away with come crazy stuff and still play (ALA Vick and i think Brady? whoever was sexting and got caught, idk :/ ), albeit not something on the scale of match-fixing. I never followed pro-BW, but all the highlights i've seen of this guy are just amazing, i would love to see him in SC2 or BW once again. Kid's got skillz
On a somewhat related note, I never realized all the innovative little stuff u could do in BW as opposed to SC2. I'm still gonna play mainly SC2, but I think Browder and his crew REALLY need to sit down and take extensive notes on videos like this before they start designing expansions...
match fixing is really serious, its usually criminal and has serious consequences on the integrity of players, not to mention unsportsmanlike. AND he was a facilitator of it, getting other people involved
as someone who's followed bw esports scene in korea from quite early on, and being the most passionate savior fan ever, i say this:
savior is a scumbag as a human, because why? he's never apologised. he played the main role, he was the reason why the match-fixing started. what rotinegg says sums up exactly how i feel about savior's actions
On November 10 2011 07:31 HFL wrote: Compared to the other match fixers, Savior didn't really have a big part in it. Yes he was a broker, which in Korea some people think it's even worse than actual match fixing. The punishments that were given to Savior were not nearly as severe as the others like Hwasin's and Justin's. The whole scandal entirely brought down BW, not just Savior, he didn't play as big of a part as some people may think. Although the actions he did were still bad and probably unforgivable for most people, I think he should be given a chance to relieve his image.
justin played just as big of a role; the only two progamers that were punished were infact savior and justin. savior never apologized, unlike the others who did, and instead went into hiding. then he started streaming BW to make money, and that's what makes him a scumbag, while the others we can say 'it was a lapse of judgement.'
edit: this is a sensitive issue in the BW scene, so please dont throw around arbitrary statements as if they were facts. hwasin was never punished. I had to double check just to make sure: wiki
How does streaming make him a douchebag? If you're gonna be angry at anyone it should be the viewers who give him money.
i'm pretty upset that people would give him money for streaming, but to each his own, that's not a criminal act.
Esports didn't exist in korea 15 years ago. The entire scene was pioneered from nothing by people who were truly passionate about the game. It was a little niche, a safe haven for those who legitimately loved the game, and wanted to compete/watch others compete. Savior's act of douchebaggery (ie match fixing) was the first big scandal in the scene, and it did massive damage to the still-developing BW scene. The scandal tarnished the image that the scene projects, especially to the older population in Korea, who had never been keen on if the idea of their kids getting heavily involved in video games. To the predecessors who helped and watched the scene develop, Savior is an ungrateful prick who milked the cow and tipped it over when he had gotten what he wanted. To run away without a single apology, and then come back and try to make money by streaming BW is like taking a dump on that cow. I dunno at least that's how I feel.
Of course we all make mistakes in life, small and big, but how you handle it after you make that mistake is what shows your true character. What Savior is doing can hardly be called 'owning up'. Truly disappointed as an ex-fan of his.
if at the very least, he had crawled out to apologise, if he had admitted his wrong-doings to his coach, teammates, fellow players and fans, the hate on TL wouldn't be to this extent. why do you think players like hwasin and upmagic get less hate than savior? they apologised. they realised their wrong-doings and admitted it. savior didn't. he didn't take up responsibility, and that is what makes me mad at him as a person.
and i still can't believe people actually feel that he deserves a second chance. do you think even if kespa allows it, the fans and staff (especially OGN commentators, they were incredibly upset about it, watch it here
will allow it? i would never ever want to see his face appear back on a field of profession that he personally tarnished. the innocence and image that the bw scene had, the key factor that attracted so many youngsters and adults alike, was shattered. it is being re-established, yes, and it's going fine, but if this blasphemer was to be back and go like "sup guys, nothing happened", there will be hell. there is a fine line to draw when giving second chances. it's not about money, but it's about trust and image and other intangible factors.
as a player though, that is totally another story.
EPT![[image loading]](http://cfile27.uf.tistory.com/image/155A57284BF00CD0E8D952)
