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tvp, still a sad joke. - Page 3

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mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
January 24 2011 05:58 GMT
#41
i like how this thread turned all serious and made me look like an ass
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
January 24 2011 06:01 GMT
#42
Well, I think this is a fairly justified rage blog luckyfool i'll help ya out with some rage

For people not high up on the ladder, or that just watch random games/replays, you have not seen the ridiculous bullshit on ladder in tvp. Literally any build you do in TvP, protoss has either a unit advantage, or economic advantage, where if you do not defend their bullshit, you lose the game, but if you do, they are still very much in the game with their expansion now up lol.

And like lucky raged bout, if you try aggression, they lol-field their ramp, and stop it and are ahead. Anytime protoss goes collosus, you absolutely have to always have 4-20 vikings, depending on their collosus numbers.

If you mis judge viking/marine/marauder ratio to his collosus/gateway/zealot/stalker numbers, you lose the game from not being able to stop collosus. Also, drops are a joke. Vs mediocre protoss, you will be able to tug them left and right with drops yes...but versus the higher up protoss, they simply will turtle and expand again. You invested into drops -> they do zero and protoss is still ahead now with collosus building up or switch to templar.

If you do not scout the timing on their templar you automatically lose the game from having no pre-emptive ghosts, which you must also perfectly EMP onto templar or you also lose ur entire bio army to the collosous + templars.s

Oh, and like luckyfool said, you can be a 30 apm noob and if you know the 4gate build order you can still win tournaments vs superior players - you can even win TLopens and lots of beta tournaments when everyone are noobies at the game *cough*

Also, a lot of the forum warriors have not seen the pure turtle templar/carrier style that some P sometimes do on ladder, with mass cannons. It sounds like a "lol that will never work" theorycraft, but there's a bunch of top protoss players that literally do that shit - cannon until they have khadayrin an then go carriers.

TvZ is even easier than TvP now imo. I'm not *whining* i'm just providing some anecdotal evidence to support luckyfool's rage - it's pretty justified. And also frustrating when you see certain players 4gate their way to sponsorships...

lol.

And on top of all this, scouting is insanely difficult to do in SC2. Lots of games can be coinflippy =/ ofc Zergs have more of a right to rage than we do as Terrans tho lol.

imo lucky, for tvp now, you have to literally build 3-5 bunkers at your natural to be safe - if you're doing some FE that is. Just play extremely safe on ladder, and build more bunkers than you need at your natural so shitty players don't just rush in and bust you.

And even then, yeah, the actual good protosses have an economic advantage and army advantage because you have to build the bunkers...but that's just the way the game is right now lol.



User was temp banned for this post.
Sup
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 06:08:45
January 24 2011 06:06 GMT
#43
On January 24 2011 14:55 Ver wrote:
The broodwar tvp complaint I'm sure is just low level protoss being super easy lol. There's obviously no imbalance issues there.

A lot of people mention the horrendous gsl pvt winrate. This is almost solely due to T 1 base builds, which to a certain degree is a dice roll but it's still one that favors Terran. Terran on 2 and 3 bases still has a fighting chance due to harassment, which is very powerful and takes a lot of skill for both sides.

But once you start adding up the bases and getting later in the tech tree, T winrate drops to 0. Literally. Protoss acquires too much anti-harassment potential, namely warpin temps w/ amulet, blink stalkers phoenix, or air units in general, and simply being able to warpin a bunch of stuff at once (thankfully most are too stupid to use phoenix or get blink so harass still works for longer than it should). Terran must win via harass because they have zero chance in actual battles. The only way they can stop protoss from just a moving into them with a big ball of stuff is planetarys, not just at expansions, but at strategic locations that can't be avoided.

As sc2 1 base games are unimaginably boring and I refuse to play them, I have searched long and hard and found 4 games where T wins in lategame fights vP, out of many games searching and many games played.

Ogstop vs some ladder kor on metal. 70 minute game top transitions into mass tanks after splitting the map. Protoss never gets carriers or any air unit and just a moves ground armies into tank lines over and over (still almost wins lol). Proof a monkey can play protoss.

There probably were a few games where T snipes colossus with vikings pre-battle while P is afk, but you can't be basing your strategic plans on praying the Protoss is an idiot and just doesn't protect his colossus. That's simply victory in a worst case scenario

Painuser vs Nony/Nazgul (lt/kulas 3 games total I think) from 3rd mlg.

At last, I had found a savior. A man who could take it to protoss lategame and shove their broken units in their faces. Granted in every game the protoss made horrendous horrendous blunders while Painuser kinda sat and waited for them to screw up but still, it was a terran lategame victory.

Then a friend played painuser 3 times on ladder and raped him in lategame every time with varying combinations. Painuser lost multiple maxed armies, never winning a battle or even coming close. Once carriers were on the field, continuing to play was just a formality. Painuser even emp'ed his entire army once, pre-carrier too, but it didn't matter lol. Hope shattered.

My own experience mirrors this as well. All tvp's that are not won defending allins are won by harass. 0 lategame victories or games where I try to with minimal harass and just by fighting big battles, including many games where I lose half a dozen 200/200 fights by ridiculous margins. Every conceivable unit combination has been tried: doesn't matter if P has any idea whats coming or, survives long enough to make carriers. Literally, 0/20ish.

Terran does a great job at delaying the inevitable via their strong buildings that prevent P from always exploiting T losing a battle, but it doesn't really matter whether you have the chance to lose 1 200/200 battle or 5. In one particularly memorable game, we split metal and fought repeated maxed fights. In the end, I was mined out completely, while he had 13k/4k total! Now that is cost efficient.

Jinro's games vs MC and in the machima clanwars look fancy but mech is heavily positionally dependent, and again, relies the Protoss player being a monkey. If Protoss treats v Mech like v Bio and stays cautious and expands slowly, yes they have trouble. But if they just expand over and over and protect from hellion harassment (much easier to block than bio cause it can only kill zeals and workers), mech can't do a thing to prevent it and will eventually wither and die to anything from air units, infinite supply of ground armies, or P harass. Jinro/Axslav is a good example of this. Mech is something that will work okay for awhile if Protoss reacts badly, but it is doomed in the long run.

TvP still has a semblance of balance, for who knows what side, because of Terran early game dumb builds. But it is the stupidest balance possible:

T has a variety of solid allins early game that if the Protoss rolls the dice wrong.

Midgame is interesting with harass potential but that ends very quickly. T has to balance their harass on a razors edge to keep the P pinned with threats while not taking many casualties, as otherwise they can just die to P 1a'ing into their nat. Also if Terran can gain a nice economic lead, they can trade armies repeatedly and just attrition the Protoss to death (until templars get on the field or P gets too many bases to matter, namely more than 3).

Lategame is protoss autowin.

It may or may not be "imbalanced" but it is unarguably stupid and incredibly poorly designed. Both T early game and P lategame need to be completely redesigned yet I highly doubt Blizzard will focus on anything more than superficial changes.



It's good that you mention carriers too, because lots of forum warriors think carriers are bad, when they're probably the strongest unit in the game.

tbh, the best protoss players on ladder are the ones that know how to do all of their abusive strats - 4 gate, 3warpgate void, mass phoenix into mass collosus, dts, khadayrin turtle into carriers. The best protoss know how to do those + turtle hardcore.
Sup
Zim23
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1681 Posts
January 24 2011 06:08 GMT
#44
Wait wait, so if a Protoss player plays perfectly then he's really really hard to beat? Wow, so crazy.
Do an arranged marriage if she's not completely minging, and don't worry about dancing, get a go-kart, cheers.
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 06:12:13
January 24 2011 06:09 GMT
#45
On January 24 2011 15:08 Zim23 wrote:
Wait wait, so if a Protoss player plays perfectly then he's really really hard to beat? Wow, so crazy.


No, what luckyfool is correctly pointing out is that if the Protoss player players perfectly, and the Terran player also plays perfectly - the protoss wins.

That's the point. No matter what you do as T, protoss gets an advantage for nothing. You defend their all-in -> they get an expo. You defend their 3warpgate void -> they have map control + can still kill you + ur expo is late.

They 4 gate -> you defend, then you are IN THE GAME on EVEN terms LOFL. You don't defend, THEY WIN.

It's a joke match-up.
Sup
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
January 24 2011 06:11 GMT
#46
On January 24 2011 15:08 Zim23 wrote:
Wait wait, so if a Protoss player plays perfectly then he's really really hard to beat? Wow, so crazy.


why is that crazy.

terrans literally are flying around with dropships "hoping" for an opening somewhere. or doing a 1base "hoping" it's going to work. if you don't find that opening you're done, you can't fight head to head mid/late at all, ever. you aren't rewarded at all for a more macro defensive game management style.

honestly I'm probably playing the wrong race in sc2.
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 06:13:41
January 24 2011 06:12 GMT
#47
Honestly look at zvp its more of a joke IMO. Forcefield has got to be the most retarded spell ever created so lame when they forcefield your whole army away while sniping bases. I think its forcefield that makes protoss so strong and very hard to beat if it wasn't such a strong spell don't think tvp/zvp would be as big of a problem as it is now but I completely can understand the rage thats what I have been doing past 2 weeks :D
When I think of something else, something will go here
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
January 24 2011 06:13 GMT
#48
On January 24 2011 15:12 blade55555 wrote:
Honestly look at zvp its more of a joke IMO. Forcefield has got to be the most retarded spell ever created so lame when they forcefield your whole army away while sniping bases -_-


It's a tier1 stasis field. @ blizzard
Sup
Grebliv
Profile Joined May 2006
Iceland800 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-24 06:21:57
January 24 2011 06:21 GMT
#49
Blizzard did a good job turning a beautiful matchup from bw into a coin flip lottery.

That blizz quote from sometime early in beta where they basically said they didn't want tanks to be the backbone of terran drains my soul... what do we get instead, yes marauders. Fun times.
ESV Mapmaking!
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