tvp, still a sad joke. - Page 3

On January 24 2011 14:55 Ver wrote:
The broodwar tvp complaint I'm sure is just low level protoss being super easy lol. There's obviously no imbalance issues there.

A lot of people mention the horrendous gsl pvt winrate. This is almost solely due to T 1 base builds, which to a certain degree is a dice roll but it's still one that favors Terran. Terran on 2 and 3 bases still has a fighting chance due to harassment, which is very powerful and takes a lot of skill for both sides.

But once you start adding up the bases and getting later in the tech tree, T winrate drops to 0. Literally. Protoss acquires too much anti-harassment potential, namely warpin temps w/ amulet, blink stalkers phoenix, or air units in general, and simply being able to warpin a bunch of stuff at once (thankfully most are too stupid to use phoenix or get blink so harass still works for longer than it should). Terran must win via harass because they have zero chance in actual battles. The only way they can stop protoss from just a moving into them with a big ball of stuff is planetarys, not just at expansions, but at strategic locations that can't be avoided.

As sc2 1 base games are unimaginably boring and I refuse to play them, I have searched long and hard and found 4 games where T wins in lategame fights vP, out of many games searching and many games played.

Ogstop vs some ladder kor on metal. 70 minute game top transitions into mass tanks after splitting the map. Protoss never gets carriers or any air unit and just a moves ground armies into tank lines over and over (still almost wins lol). Proof a monkey can play protoss.

There probably were a few games where T snipes colossus with vikings pre-battle while P is afk, but you can't be basing your strategic plans on praying the Protoss is an idiot and just doesn't protect his colossus. That's simply victory in a worst case scenario

Painuser vs Nony/Nazgul (lt/kulas 3 games total I think) from 3rd mlg.

At last, I had found a savior. A man who could take it to protoss lategame and shove their broken units in their faces. Granted in every game the protoss made horrendous horrendous blunders while Painuser kinda sat and waited for them to screw up but still, it was a terran lategame victory.

Then a friend played painuser 3 times on ladder and raped him in lategame every time with varying combinations. Painuser lost multiple maxed armies, never winning a battle or even coming close. Once carriers were on the field, continuing to play was just a formality. Painuser even emp'ed his entire army once, pre-carrier too, but it didn't matter lol. Hope shattered.

My own experience mirrors this as well. All tvp's that are not won defending allins are won by harass. 0 lategame victories or games where I try to with minimal harass and just by fighting big battles, including many games where I lose half a dozen 200/200 fights by ridiculous margins. Every conceivable unit combination has been tried: doesn't matter if P has any idea whats coming or, survives long enough to make carriers. Literally, 0/20ish.

Terran does a great job at delaying the inevitable via their strong buildings that prevent P from always exploiting T losing a battle, but it doesn't really matter whether you have the chance to lose 1 200/200 battle or 5. In one particularly memorable game, we split metal and fought repeated maxed fights. In the end, I was mined out completely, while he had 13k/4k total! Now that is cost efficient.

Jinro's games vs MC and in the machima clanwars look fancy but mech is heavily positionally dependent, and again, relies the Protoss player being a monkey. If Protoss treats v Mech like v Bio and stays cautious and expands slowly, yes they have trouble. But if they just expand over and over and protect from hellion harassment (much easier to block than bio cause it can only kill zeals and workers), mech can't do a thing to prevent it and will eventually wither and die to anything from air units, infinite supply of ground armies, or P harass. Jinro/Axslav is a good example of this. Mech is something that will work okay for awhile if Protoss reacts badly, but it is doomed in the long run.

TvP still has a semblance of balance, for who knows what side, because of Terran early game dumb builds. But it is the stupidest balance possible:

T has a variety of solid allins early game that if the Protoss rolls the dice wrong.

Midgame is interesting with harass potential but that ends very quickly. T has to balance their harass on a razors edge to keep the P pinned with threats while not taking many casualties, as otherwise they can just die to P 1a'ing into their nat. Also if Terran can gain a nice economic lead, they can trade armies repeatedly and just attrition the Protoss to death (until templars get on the field or P gets too many bases to matter, namely more than 3).

Lategame is protoss autowin.

It may or may not be "imbalanced" but it is unarguably stupid and incredibly poorly designed. Both T early game and P lategame need to be completely redesigned yet I highly doubt Blizzard will focus on anything more than superficial changes.

On January 24 2011 15:08 Zim23 wrote:
Wait wait, so if a Protoss player plays perfectly then he's really really hard to beat? Wow, so crazy.

On January 24 2011 15:08 Zim23 wrote:
Wait wait, so if a Protoss player plays perfectly then he's really really hard to beat? Wow, so crazy.

On January 24 2011 15:12 blade55555 wrote:
Honestly look at zvp its more of a joke IMO. Forcefield has got to be the most retarded spell ever created so lame when they forcefield your whole army away while sniping bases -_-