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Hey everyone,
First post on TL. I personally play Terran (Gold level), but after watching hundreds of VODs and playing many games (in one case I almost beat my buddy who is a platinum Zerg), I have to admit that TvZ is my easiest matchup (TvT hardest).
I have played Zerg a lot because I'm intrigued. I didn't do as well for the most part. Here are my theories (a newbie's perspective) on why Zerg players might have a hard time. There is a tl;dr at the bottom for those not interested in my explanations.
1. One building per unit.
This is by far the most challenging aspect of playing Zerg.
Zerg has 9 total offensive units (not counting the Queen). Each unit requires it's own structure: Zerglings need Spawning Pool, Banelings need Banelings Nest, etc. While I agree with Greater Spire and Ultralisk Cavern, I don't agree with Hydra Den, Roach Warren, and Banelings Nest. If they could be combined (call it Queen of Blades Slave Warren or something), it would make it more on par with other races. Also, if your Greater Spire is destroyed, you can't make any air units. But (as a Terran), if your Fusion Core is destroyed, you can continue churning out units that aren't Battlecruisers (not as crippled).
Protoss and Terran have 12 total offensive units. For Terrans, there are just 3 production buildings. With tech labs on those, you can churn out anything except Ghosts and Battlecruisers (which require their own tech).
I don't know much about Protoss, but I guess they have some specific tech structures such as Dark Shrine, Templar Archives, and Fleet Beacon which seems on par with how much a Terran needs to build.
I'm not suggesting just design all races the same way, I'm just explaining that if 2 races can switch up their offense quickly, Zerg should be able to as well.
2. Hatcheries don't spawn enough larva/Queen does not autoinject.
Think about it - SCVs can autorepair (right click repair icon) and Carriers can autoreplenish interceptors. I realize this design might be because they want Zerg players to do something at their base (a la Mules and Chrono Boost), but I feel like at lower levels of play (bronze/silver/gold), mules and chrono are almost optional (especially midgame and beyond). Inject larva is not. Even at higher levels, you can see T players drop 8 mules after micro'ing a large battle. They can catch up instantly, but a Zerg Queen can only inject once per hatch (and wait).
3. Mass heal units on field
There are theories out there that Infestors should have an AOE heal. I agree completely. Terrans have SCVs and MedVacs, Protoss shields regenerate fast for ALL units away from battle. With the exception of burrowed Roaches, Zergs have nothing to mass heal up quickly. Transfusion per unit is a joke.
4. Complicated Tech.
When I first played Zerg (it was a fun 3v3), I wanted to go "fast" Brood Lords. Didn't happen.
Just compare the tech for a Brood Lord:
Spawning Pool, Lair, Spire, Infestation Pit, Hive, Greater Spire, Corruptor -> Brood Lord
versus tech for a Battlecruiser:
Barracks, Factory, Starport, Fusion Core -> Battlecruiser
versus tech for a Carrier:
Gate, Cyber Core, Stargate, Fleet Beacon -> Carrier
I realize it might work out perfectly in terms of damage/minerals/gas/time required to get to that level of tech. But holy fucking nuclear engineer, is it complicated or what.
tl; dr:
Zerg is weak for these reasons:
1. Possibly combine hydra den, roach warren, and banelings nest and call the Queen of Blades Slave Warren
2. Hatcheries should spit more than 1 larva per time unit or house more than 3 larva
3. Have a way to mass heal Zerg units (other than burrowed roaches) as fast as protoss shields regeneration or medvac/scv repair.
4. Teching up for Zerg requires a PhD (Brood Lord vs. Battlecruiser).
+ Show Spoiler +5. Allow Zerg to build hybrids (a la campaign).
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is this a troll?
User was warned for this post
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On August 05 2010 03:09 michaelthe wrote:
is this a troll?
No, he put too much effort into it.
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I agree that zerg has longer to tech then other races but that's bout all I agree with in this post (platinum player if anyone cares)
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naw i think its a troll
User was warned for this post
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This has to be a troll.....
While we are at it though... lets make spawning pool morph in to a greater spawning pool (only requires a spawning pool to morph) that lets you build every unit for the same price as zerglings and each cocoon is 2 units and .5 supply
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On August 05 2010 03:12 t3tsubo wrote:
naw i think its a troll
Or someone who doesn't play sc1 or sc2 alot.
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I'm sorry, but you wouldn't know balance.
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I love the Forum mindset;
Someone has a difference of opinion, they must be a troll...
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just in case it's not a troll:
"
When I first played Zerg (it was a fun 3v3), I wanted to go "fast" Brood Lords. Didn't happen.
Just compare the tech for a Brood Lord:
Spawning Pool, Lair, Spire, Infestation Pit, Hive, Greater Spire, Corruptor -> Brood Lord
versus tech for a Battlecruiser:
Barracks, Factory, Starport, Fusion Core -> Battlecruiser
versus tech for a Carrier:
Gate, Cyber Core, Stargate, Fleet Beacon -> Carrier
"
Zerg only need one building. The Terran/Protoss would be building multiple barracks/factories/gates/stargates etc.
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Why so negative? I think he has some what of a point. As a Zerg player this has never bothered me, but now I'm reading about it seems a bit odd indeed. However I don't think Z is imbalanced, and therefore so no need for a change.
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On August 05 2010 03:15 xenocide.psv wrote:
I love the Forum mindset;
Someone has a difference of opinion, they must be a troll...
See #5 in the spoiler tag...
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On August 05 2010 03:15 xenocide.psv wrote:
I love the Forum mindset;
Someone has a difference of opinion, they must be a troll...
Starcraft balance is not a matter of opinion.
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This thread seems to be bits and pieces taken from multiple other threads I have read in the last few days.
Races have their specific strengths and weaknesses, in Zerg's case it more than makes up for having to build a building for each unit by being able to produce 20 of something whenever it wants (provided you have been spawning larva).
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wow all I can say is there's a reason you're gold lmao
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Not everyone is platinum or diamond division guys....respect other people's opinions. And yes, lockjaw's post is an opinion. At least his post was well thought out and he put effort into it, I can't say that much for other threads.
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HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
If Blizzard comes with the auto injecte larva for queen...... as a zerg player..... i'm quiting zerg to play toss....
That is what (in my opinion) makes a good zerg player... managing larva, being able spawn a whole army in 1 min...
Don't know where your going with this thread!!!!????
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I'm a zerg player as well but this seems like waaay to much to "balance" zerg better.
Though I think broodlords take a long time to get as far as teching goes, but they're incredibly strong, and if they were much easier to get, mid to late game would become even more ridiculous.
I don't think hydra nest, roach warren, and baneling nest should be combined either. Zerg tech switching is as fast as making 1 building. Combining them would stagnate scouting zerg players because they would obviously always get this structure. Choosing between a spire and hydra den early lair makes a bit difference in how the game goes, and I'd imagine it would do the same for roach/baneling "den". Scouting a roach warren is important.
Inject is strong enough. Queens in general make zerg a bit more loopy, as you need to keep up with multiple injections and creep tumors, but if you make it to 200 food you can still keep injecting to make more larvae for reinforcements behind your army, giving you an incredibly high "unit count" as far as creation and reinforcing is concerned. Imagine going from 200/200 to 150/200 after a fight, then the zerg is back up to max in 30 seconds (sans broodlords in lieu of corrupters).
Infestors mass healing doesn't sound right either. Infesting zergling with health? We already have queens if we _must_ have healing out there. I would say that an ultra with a transfusing queen or two is really deadly if you have the patience for it.
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lololol @ the first few posts. but to the OP only unlock what units you will use. dont spam buildings for the hell of it and queen larva inject separates the good players from the gold players =P
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I just think he has a difference in opinion on the race, being that people newer to the game of Starcraft might find things a bit imbalanced. It is true that the inject larvae may take a bit to get used to (not using it fast enough), but once you get the rhythm down, it is really versatile.
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I stopped reading and laughed my ass off when he suggested for queens to auto-inject larva.
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Can we just not use the word troll ever, ever again.
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That is what makes zerg interesting... It's simple...
If you wanna do a 3 races-need building you can always go play warcraft 3.
The point of starcraft 2 is to not have three same race.
=win
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On August 05 2010 03:16 Snowfield wrote:
Starcraft balance is not a matter of opinion.
Well you must be a developer then, with such an authoritative mindset. There will always be varying opinions on balance, but from what I see, finding replays of Top Notch Zerg players winning is increasingly difficult, and there are no less than twice as many Terran and something like 50% more Toss players. Denying that Zerg is a little underpowered at the moment is essentially ignorance. Although he might not have the magic solution, the fact that it takes significantly longer for Zerg players to get to Tier3 is in fact a balance issue.
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On August 05 2010 03:16 Snowfield wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:15 xenocide.psv wrote:
I love the Forum mindset;
Someone has a difference of opinion, they must be a troll... Starcraft balance is not a matter of opinion.
It isn't?
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On August 05 2010 03:23 xenocide.psv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:16 Snowfield wrote:
Starcraft balance is not a matter of opinion. Well you must be a developer then, with such an authoritative mindset. There will always be varying opinions on balance, but from what I see, finding replays of Top Notch Zerg players winning is increasingly difficult, and there are no less than twice as many Terran and something like 50% more Toss players. Denying that Zerg is a little underpowered at the moment is essentially ignorance. Although he might not have the magic solution, the fact that it takes significantly longer for Zerg players to get to Tier3 is in fact a balance issue.
And the fact that Z can tech switch instantly due to larva isn't?
Get over it. It's part of the race.
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On August 05 2010 03:20 KillerPlague wrote:
lololol @ the first few posts. but to the OP only unlock what units you will use. dont spam buildings for the hell of it and queen larva inject separates the good players from the gold players =P
lol hey i inject larva/spread creep over the whole map/etc etc and im in gold. although i'm not too sure why. I went 4-1 in placement matches and im like 11-3 right now in my division, ranked 15th or something
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I'd like to see spire creation time go down slightly, personally. As much as I love the Hydra Den, air just seems more plausible vs most stuff I lose to.
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On August 05 2010 03:22 sammler wrote:
Can we just not use the word troll ever, ever again.
If people like the OP would stop posting sure.
User was warned for this post
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On August 05 2010 03:28 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:22 sammler wrote:
Can we just not use the word troll ever, ever again. If people like the OP would stop posting sure.
If you think OP was a troll, then you clearly don't know what a troll is.
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On August 05 2010 03:25 oxxo wrote:
And the fact that Z can tech switch instantly due to larva isn't?
Get over it. It's part of the race.
So apparently being "part of the race" trumps balance as well? What exactly does decide balance for you people? If the developers suggested half of the ideas on forums I guarantee half the community would jump on it like dogs in heat, but when it's just some regular user it's blasphemy! I think we should just agree to disagree since all the Terran players will point out 1 tiny detail that on paper counters them and continue to beat Z 75% of the time in-game.
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1. Zerg only has 1 production building so once they have their tech they can easily mass produce the unit. Terran and Protoss need seperate production facilities to build different units. A zerg transitioning from ground to air only needs to build a spire then can churn out mutas/corrupters/broodlords whereas if a protoss or terran wants to transition into mass air they need to build many starports or stargates to match the production
2.You can just build more hatcheries for more larva. Players seem to think that with the addition of the queen, building hatcheries for larva is bad whereas it is a good alternative for lower ranked players who aren't very adept at larva inject
3.Zerg units aren't made to be durable like protoss units and to some extent terran units. Zerg relies on mass numbers and their units are expendable while protoss relies on a smaller number of stronger units. Terran has to expend resources on their healing which can be sniped. Plus all the races are mean't to play out differently, so how they recover hp is accounted for also.
4. You forgot to add techlab to terran, so it takes zerg 6 tech buildings, terran 5 tech buildings, and 4 tech buildings for protoss. This seems alright to me since protoss are the most advanced, and zerg the least advanced in terms of lore so it makes sense zerg has to work harder to get advanced units. The fact that corrupters turn into broodlords may make it a bit mroe complicated, but it also allows you to start production of broodlords before your greater spire is completed since you can still build corrupters. Also you have to keep in mind what I said for #1, you only need hatcheries to mass produce broodlords but terran/protoss need to mass stargates/starports.
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On August 05 2010 03:28 JinNJuice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 03:28 Backpack wrote:On August 05 2010 03:22 sammler wrote:
Can we just not use the word troll ever, ever again. If people like the OP would stop posting sure. If you think OP was a troll, then you clearly don't know what a troll is.
he's either a troll or an idiot, either way he should stop posting
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United States11393 Posts
Bad theorycraft and discussion/analysis of zerg
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EPT
