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Basically I've hit a huge road block, ZvZ. I can't win, and the majority of games I play are against Zerg. It's really irritating me profusely, I've tried several different builds but none of them stick, the other Zerg always beats me.
In beta this matchup caused me to deinstall the game, I quit a few weeks before the beta went down and came back only for retail hoping that this matchup would be fixed. Seems there are a few more options, but it's still a really irritating matchup nevertheless. I'm starting to think whether I should switch race or not due to my win rate.
Anyway I guess my question is how do I win in ZvZ? What build order? I know 1 base is very popular in ZvZ seeing as the games rarely go over 10 minutes. As of late I've tried 13 pool 12 refinery Roaches but I don't seem to be able to win to mass Speedlings into Mutas.
Any build suggestions, any side of this matchup being improved? Or should I switch race?
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In general, ZvZ, the standard opening has been speedlings/banelings. If your opponent makes a transition into roaches, try to do some economic damage, then tech into Mutalisks to finish him off. I've found this to be very common.
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The standard build for ZvZ lately is 14 or 15 pool + gas, overlord @ 16, leave ur supply @ 16/18 to start queen, then start pumping lings as soon as ur pool is done. As soon as you have 100 gas start ling speed, then make the baneling den with your next 50 gas. This is the standard opening in Diamond ZvZ 90% of the time. You want to send units 1 or 2 at a time into the enemy to win this type of mirror, and never attack move with banelings.
There are certain variations to watch out for. If you scout that the other player is going roaches, immediately cancel your baneling den. Roaches are easily countered with mass speedlings, but banelings don't do much damage to them so if you waste minerals and gas on banelings while they went roaches there is a chance you will lose. If a player goes roaches they will try to hold position on their ramp or your ramp and hope you engage them. Zerglings need a surround to win the fight so be careful of that. Once you expand after the early game, a transition into muta/ banelings will normally overrun any roach/hydra play, as the banelings melt hydras + mutas finish the rest.
A new build that people have been doing a lot in top level diamond games is a fast muta build, where they build literally 5 spine crawlers and rush mutas. If you see this type of build its up to you to determine if your baneling / ling opening can kill enough drones, and if not you should fast expand and turtle up with spores, then go muta as well. Since they spent so much on spine crawlers u should be able to survive until your spire is done, then you will have much more gas saved up than them for mutas and can pump out way more than they have.
TL;DR: Spam speedlings + banelings and watch out for variations on the build
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Generally you want to open with Zerglings. If your opponent sees the Roach tech path, he knows he has time to expand. He can keep you contained with zerglings and delay your expansion long enough that he gets more roaches than you anyway if he wants.
Because of this, most players go speedling/baneling. The match really relies on that baneling micro - one baneling can take out an absurd number of zerglings - so controlling that micro seems to be where the match is decided most of the time.
I usually go something like 13 gas 13 pool and drone to 15. Once the pool finishes, build a baneling nest and two (four) zerglings - send those zerglings to the opponent's base. After the OL pops, build more zerglings and send them to the same spot. Morph those first 4 lings into banelings as your other zerglings arrive. Once they arrive, send the zerglings in first and split the banelings into pairs. Try to kill as many drones as possible. If you kill enough, you may want to expand right away but he might go all-in roach and kill you, so just try to kill him with a second wave.
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There is actually atm a lot of different strats going on in ZvZ at least from my experience
FE into mass lings,Roach > muta,Roach>hydra, Ling/Bling,Ling>muta, seems like it is more variety in ZvZ then it was in Beta to me at least.
And dont switch race : / we need more sawrms !
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I haven't played on all of the 1v1 maps yet, but generally maps that have a ramp with natural right outside of it are great maps to go roach. 1 roach + queen can block your ramp while your roaches move out across the map.
Another popular build I've seen is 1 base muta, using 1-2 spine crawlers + some lings for defense until you can get the muta out.
But it's still very much a guessing game, since queens chase away overlords, and 4-6 lings at your ramp/choke prevents any scouting.
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The nice thing about roaches are lings and banelings are pretty bad against them. I usually 12 pool, get a queen and spine crawler at the same time. Get a roach warren and basically wall off with roaches/a spine crawler at your ramp. Tech up and go hydra/roach.
Hydra roach has no real counter from zerg besides itself in my experience. It shuts down speedling muta hard. Be warned you need to have good macro for this to work, as you give up map control and the other player will most likely expand before you do. But if you have good macro and use roaches to wall off and defend your nat, the time it takes your opponent to transition to roach or hydra/roach will decide the game in your favor.
This is somewhat vulnerable to ling rushes before you have roaches, but the spine and queen go a long way to stopping that nonsense.
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On August 03 2010 01:13 Sensator wrote:
In beta this matchup caused me to deinstall the game, I quit a few weeks before the beta went down and came back only for retail hoping that this matchup would be fixed.
How exactly do you fix a mirror matchup?
You can literally do anything your opponnent does. If you want to get better at your ZvZ matchups, watch the replays of the people who beat you and distinguish what they did right or what you did wrong. Look at the replay minute by minute from the beginning to compare yourself to your enemy, how many drones do each of you have, when do you each build your pools, when he has 6 lings what defenses do you have etc.
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Watch the replays that you lose in and do what your opponent did?
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On August 03 2010 01:39 Bair wrote:
The nice thing about roaches are lings and banelings are pretty bad against them. I usually 12 pool, get a queen and spine crawler at the same time. Get a roach warren and basically wall off with roaches/a spine crawler at your ramp. Tech up and go hydra/roach.
Hydra roach has no real counter from zerg besides itself in my experience. It shuts down speedling muta hard. Be warned you need to have good macro for this to work, as you give up map control and the other player will most likely expand before you do. But if you have good macro and use roaches to wall off and defend your nat, the time it takes your opponent to transition to roach or hydra/roach will decide the game in your favor.
This is somewhat vulnerable to ling rushes before you have roaches, but the spine and queen go a long way to stopping that nonsense.
Erm I don't think you know what you're talking about. If you camp at the ramp with Roach/Spine, the speedling Zerg will easily see this and outmacro you. Mutas will also initially keep you in your 1 base while they drone hard, then they can roll you over easily with speedling/muta/infestor (and baneling if they choose which is very strong vs hydra). Also Speedling/Muta transitions much better into Ultra/Ling than Roach/Hydra does, and Ultra/Ling HARD HARD counters Roach/Hydra.
I don't know why you say hydra/roach hard counters mutaling, that isn't true, and in ZvZ I personally going Roach/Hydra (I like the play and think if you work out timings it's SLIGHTLY better, but not off a 1 base camping roach + spine play).
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On August 03 2010 01:39 Bair wrote:
Hydra roach has no real counter from zerg besides itself in my experience.
pure speedroach > hydra/roach as long as you aren't fighting in a choke
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I've been trying a Sen build for ZvZ on close positions which is quite fun: FE, ling speed, take drones off gas, mass queens from both hatcheries. Defend initially with queens and sunkens. With about 6 queens, walk them over together with your spore colonies with mass lings.
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On August 03 2010 01:39 Bair wrote:
The nice thing about roaches are lings and banelings are pretty bad against them. I usually 12 pool, get a queen and spine crawler at the same time. Get a roach warren and basically wall off with roaches/a spine crawler at your ramp. Tech up and go hydra/roach.
Hydra roach has no real counter from zerg besides itself in my experience. It shuts down speedling muta hard. Be warned you need to have good macro for this to work, as you give up map control and the other player will most likely expand before you do. But if you have good macro and use roaches to wall off and defend your nat, the time it takes your opponent to transition to roach or hydra/roach will decide the game in your favor.
This is somewhat vulnerable to ling rushes before you have roaches, but the spine and queen go a long way to stopping that nonsense.
Mmm I think this is bullshit. Muta/baneling crushes hydra/roach 99% of the time ever since roach supply was switched to 2.
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Generally in ZvZ it is good to get early speedlings and 1-2 spine crawlers (how many crawlers depends on the amount of lings you have) . I see ling rushes everytime i do ZvZ. Scout him out. If they are still pumping speedlings , go baneling. If they are going lair into muta , rush them with speedlings , or go mass hydra to counter the mutas. Id say ZvZ is the most boring matchup , it either goes mass speedling/bane or mass hydra or it just ends in a cheesy ling rush.
> Speedlings - counter with speedlings , crawlers and banelings
> Speedling/Bane - Counter with .. Speedling/Bane (HATE that matchup)
> Fast expand - Counter with ling rush
> Fast lair tech - Counter with Ling rush
> Muta/ling - Counter with Bane/Hydra
> Roaches - Counter with Speedlings
(Only giving the early units because i never see ZvZ go past mid-game tech)
If you are feeling in a semi-cheese mood. Do 2 hatch Speedlings and if that doesnt take them down make a bane nest and transition to speedling/bane. That will hold off any ling rush or cheese.
ZvZ is basically whoever masses up the bigger counter. GL HF
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I always 12 pool unless its a map like desert oasis or kulas, in which I am safe enough to 14 pool or such. 12 pool can protect you from 6 pool with minimal losses and still be good enough to either punish an early expander or just defend yourself.
I used to go baneling, until I realized that if your opponet manages to get out roaches in decent numbers than its all for naught. get gas after you start buliding a pool, scout with a drone, and than drone up. When the geyser is built, than transfer three drones.
After pool is built? Build roach or queen. Than do the other.
Unless of course your opponet 6 pooled or such, in which case you want to build some lings first to defend yourself.
After getting 6 or so roaches, you can either push out or barricade your ramp. This makes runbys impossible and can basically guarantee safety against baneling spling plays. Than tech up to mutas. Get your second gas immediately after walling or before. Than tech up to muta.
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3 openings in zvz that are worth knowing
Gas pool (13, 14, or 15)
14 hatchery
10 pool
I 15 gas 15 pool speed ->banelings. I drone scout after pool and scout with first zergling pair.
If he fast roaches stop banelings (either cancel nest or banelings morphing). Use your first spawn larva for drones and make a roach warren. Becomes a roach battle except he gave you a free advantage early game.
If he goes pool then hatch and roaches, kill him with speedlings. Cancel banes. If he goes fast bane go baneling yourself and kill with speed and superior numbers.
If he 10 pools defend banes and it becomes a ling bane war with you in better shape.
I have limited games against 14 hatch so I'm not sure how to play against it. I've won some games where I just spammed speed/banes at him until he dies but I can tell that doesn't work if my opponent plays properly. I guess expand and go roaches yourself but you are playing from behind.
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Depending on the map I will either 10 pool 9 drone 10 ovie or just a regular 13 pool. I like a 10 pool because it absolutely shuts down any 6 pool rush, and with all the eco openings people go nowadays, it comes to no surprise that I can often even the score in drone count with my initial 6 lings.
Now you will obviously get a lot of rage from doing this ( the kind you feel when you try to 15 hatch a terran and he kindly drops a bunker there ). People will call you cheesy, rusher, any kind of foul word in the vocabulary. But it sure does feel nice to occasionally feel the rage of someone else instead of being the rager.
With 13 pools I like to make my base's simcity as good as possible. I block the path between my hatch and extractor with a spawning pool, drop a baneling nest/roach warren behind the mineral line blocking that off excluding one hex. Build a spinecrawler or two and put the queen on hold position in the little 'door space' after each larva vomit. This prevents banelings from just a-moving into your mineral line, while keeping an escape hatch if they manage to sneak around.
The one thing with ZvZ is though, that going roach is often a sign for the opponent to just flat out fast expand, because when your roaches get caught in the open they will die, and you will be down on units, down on eco and down an expansion pretty soon.
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after having the same problem and then learning to pwn in ZvZ, I know how you feel. ZvZ is a super fast, super micro oriented match up, and you should almost indefinitely go speedling/bling.
The reason this works so insanely well is how hatch units were designed. it's essentially rock-paper scossors, with a twist. Lings>Roaches>Banelings>Lings. This would make it dynamic, but thanks to banelings being mutated from lings, it's not. If they go roaches, you have the counter already, lings. Unless they magically get an extremely large number of roaches, you can just surround them and kill them.
What I usually do is double extractor trick for 12/10 supply, build a pool, then get an ovie and an extractor. You can get 6 lings and a queen immediately upon the pool finishing, and you should almost always send your lings right at your opponent. If you can force the battles to occur at your enemies base, you will have a major advantage, since you will have opportunities to baneling bomb their mineral line. In addition, you really need to babysit your troops, and try to pick off banelings. Do this by running a single ling at one. You gain 25/25 from the encounter, and more importantly, you might be able to eliminate all his banelings and kill him.
That's basically how ZvZ works, I'm high plat and win almost every ZvZ I'm put into. In fact, I haven't lost one since the release.
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On August 03 2010 01:49 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 01:39 Bair wrote:
The nice thing about roaches are lings and banelings are pretty bad against them. I usually 12 pool, get a queen and spine crawler at the same time. Get a roach warren and basically wall off with roaches/a spine crawler at your ramp. Tech up and go hydra/roach.
Hydra roach has no real counter from zerg besides itself in my experience. It shuts down speedling muta hard. Be warned you need to have good macro for this to work, as you give up map control and the other player will most likely expand before you do. But if you have good macro and use roaches to wall off and defend your nat, the time it takes your opponent to transition to roach or hydra/roach will decide the game in your favor.
This is somewhat vulnerable to ling rushes before you have roaches, but the spine and queen go a long way to stopping that nonsense. Erm I don't think you know what you're talking about. If you camp at the ramp with Roach/Spine, the speedling Zerg will easily see this and outmacro you. Mutas will also initially keep you in your 1 base while they drone hard, then they can roll you over easily with speedling/muta/infestor (and baneling if they choose which is very strong vs hydra). Also Speedling/Muta transitions much better into Ultra/Ling than Roach/Hydra does, and Ultra/Ling HARD HARD counters Roach/Hydra. I don't know why you say hydra/roach hard counters mutaling, that isn't true, and in ZvZ I personally going Roach/Hydra (I like the play and think if you work out timings it's SLIGHTLY better, but not off a 1 base camping roach + spine play).
That is why I say in my first post you have to be good at macro. I guess I did not make it clear that the initial wall off is just there to make sure your main's drones do not get murdered by a ling runby. You expand, just later since with a handfull of roaches you cannot defend your main and nat since you cannot wall off with crawlers alone (speedlings can run between em).
Muta contain by itself is weak. A few spores (2-3) even will heavily discourage harass without a fair number of mutas. Add in hydras (which are faster to get, cheaper to make, and more effectice against the mutas than mutas are against hydras) and suddenly your mutalisk problems have gone away. Without a large number of speedlings to assist in an assault, the mutas harass is neutered until they reach critical mass.
Ultra/ling? I have never seen a cast or played a game of ZvZ that came to ultraling. It ended in lair tech. Fine bit of theorycrafting but I cannot see that happening without a ton of gas to tech up and get substantial numbers of upgraded ultras. Time is a luxury not afforded in ZvZ.
Roach/bane and roach/ling seem much more viable, but I have never seen them used against my roach/hydra with any success. Not saying it doesn't work, just I am not in the best position to comment on those two comps.
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EPT
