|
@micronesia
or maybe you can read between the lines, but ill spell it out for you
the first half was serious, the bottom was not, it's called sarcasm
I also said buff A BIT, meaning a buff wouldn't be bad, but then again its not very crucial or necessary as far as i can see. In regards to avoiding it, i see plenty of games where the player moves the army out of the storm on time or makes the player pop a storm in a wrong place by tricking him. there are pro's and cons, but in the grand scheme of things Psi Storm is the least of the problems in the beta,
|
On March 22 2010 02:29 Windblade wrote:
@micronesia
or maybe you can read between the lines, but ill spell it out for you
the first half was serious, the bottom was not, it's called sarcasm
I also said buff A BIT, meaning a buff wouldn't be bad, but then again its not very crucial or necessary as far as i can see. In regards to avoiding it, i see plenty of games where the player moves the army out of the storm on time or makes the player pop a storm in a wrong place by tricking him. there are pro's and cons, but in the grand scheme of things Psi Storm is the least of the problems in the beta,
Did you see my post about 'buffing' it technically and 'nerfing' it gameplay wise? Also not a good idea to talk in the manner you do with a well known TL poster.
|
United States24805 Posts
On March 22 2010 02:09 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 01:52 micronesia wrote:On March 22 2010 01:49 da_head wrote:
if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage Collosus are in fact very strong but it isn't that difficult to counter them if you have the right units and control them correctly (which I mess up sometimes :p) Just get some vikings and abuse their range while avoiding engaging the protoss as much as you can. There doesn't seem to be a hard counter to storm. The only argument I've heard which should really be discussed is exactly the nature of EMP vs storm. da_head like those before you you made a claim (storm is way too weak) without providing any justification whatsoever. I'm trying to weed that out of this discussion so that something can actually be accomplished but it doesn't seem to be working. why do we need a hard-counter to every fucking unit/spell in the game? OMFGWTF ______ IS OP I NEED HARD-COUNTER TO MAKE MY LIFE EASY was there a hard-counter to storm in sc1? no, you just lived with the fact that its a strong spell and you did your best to dodge it. people complained about op colossus early on, then found out how to spread units to minimize damage, dont see why its not different here. dont stick 50 low-hp units in 1 control group, if you use 3-4+ like in SC1, a storm or two wont decimate your entire army.
No you don't actually need a hard counter to everything and I apologize for making it sound like I meant that. I haven't noticed people 'spreading' units a certain way to minimize damage from colossus like you described though... maybe you could show what you mean here.
The whole 'one control group' argument is valid for very early in the game when there's 1-2 colossus vs mostly just MM and a ghost or two. But as the game goes on you are gonna be clumped up (especially with this map pool) regardless of what control group scheme you use (edit: one storm per control group would seem like prime targets to me :p). Also, it's tough to make too many hotkeys of MM later on since you need a separate one for each of several other units since spells often get lost with unit combos in the same group. I'm spoiled that I'm using hotkeys for all of my macro right now though... but my macro is so sick compared to sc1 :p
On March 22 2010 02:31 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 02:29 Windblade wrote:
@micronesia
or maybe you can read between the lines, but ill spell it out for you
the first half was serious, the bottom was not, it's called sarcasm
I also said buff A BIT, meaning a buff wouldn't be bad, but then again its not very crucial or necessary as far as i can see. In regards to avoiding it, i see plenty of games where the player moves the army out of the storm on time or makes the player pop a storm in a wrong place by tricking him. there are pro's and cons, but in the grand scheme of things Psi Storm is the least of the problems in the beta,
Did you see my post about 'buffing' it technically and 'nerfing' it gameplay wise? Also not a good idea to talk in the manner you do with a well known TL poster.
It doesn't bother me when the rude guy clearly isn't making sense. Does he really think I thought he was serious about the hybrid stuff. Also, does he know what sarcasm actually is? These are questions I doubt he can answer in a calm manner without going on the attack and making himself look like a bigger fool.
|
On March 22 2010 01:52 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 01:49 da_head wrote:
if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage Collosus are in fact very strong but it isn't that difficult to counter them if you have the right units and control them correctly (which I mess up sometimes :p) Just get some vikings and abuse their range while avoiding engaging the protoss as much as you can. There doesn't seem to be a hard counter to storm. The only argument I've heard which should really be discussed is exactly the nature of EMP vs storm. da_head like those before you you made a claim (storm is way too weak) without providing any justification whatsoever. I'm trying to weed that out of this discussion so that something can actually be accomplished but it doesn't seem to be working.
what justification do you need..? ok fine, let me waste my time spelling it out for you. firstly, going templar tech means you have to skip out on: obs and immortals. (in exchange for getting charge, which isn't really beneficial early on, and blink which is pretty useless at this point)
secondly: storm does 80 damage in a small radius. collosus does 46 in a line PER attack. yes it's true that collosi get hard countered (sigh) by vikings, but i think the same can be said for high templars and ghosts (emp + snipe). the only benefit storm has over collosus is that you can hit air units with it.
|
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc.
|
I think the reason storm seems harder to dodge because one of the classic "let me micro out of this storm or I'm going to die units"....the hydra, is now a lot slower than it used to be. In fact from a zerg standpoint, but the roach and hydra are slower than the SCI hydra counterpart (I believe the roach still is after speed upgrade but I could easily be wrong on that one).
From that standpoint, I agree that hydra can't micro out of storm as well, they simply aren't as mobile. But on the other hand, I don't think storm is overpowered, for all the hydra I kill with it there always seem to be dozens more.
Terran have it a bit easier, with stim their army is very mobile, and gets healed as it moves. Also marines have more durability now and can survive storm longer.
|
Taiwan619 Posts
can we get rid of stalkers. they're really imba.
|
On March 22 2010 03:07 Karas wrote:
I think the reason storm seems harder to dodge because one of the classic "let me micro out of this storm or I'm going to die units"....the hydra, is now a lot slower than it used to be. In fact from a zerg standpoint, but the roach and hydra are slower than the SCI hydra counterpart (I believe the roach still is after speed upgrade but I could easily be wrong on that one).
From that standpoint, I agree that hydra can't micro out of storm as well, they simply aren't as mobile. But on the other hand, I don't think storm is overpowered, for all the hydra I kill with it there always seem to be dozens more.
Terran have it a bit easier, with stim their army is very mobile, and gets healed as it moves. Also marines have more durability now and can survive storm longer.
First off I'd be willing to bet money the roach is faster, especially if you drop creep all over the map like every good zerg I play does.
Secondly if you have the tier 3 regen upgrade for roaches storm shouldn't even be a big deal for them if you're even remotely trying to dodge.
|
United States24805 Posts
On March 22 2010 02:52 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 01:52 micronesia wrote:On March 22 2010 01:49 da_head wrote:
if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage Collosus are in fact very strong but it isn't that difficult to counter them if you have the right units and control them correctly (which I mess up sometimes :p) Just get some vikings and abuse their range while avoiding engaging the protoss as much as you can. There doesn't seem to be a hard counter to storm. The only argument I've heard which should really be discussed is exactly the nature of EMP vs storm. da_head like those before you you made a claim (storm is way too weak) without providing any justification whatsoever. I'm trying to weed that out of this discussion so that something can actually be accomplished but it doesn't seem to be working. what justification do you need..? ok fine, let me waste my time spelling it out for you. firstly, going templar tech means you have to skip out on: obs and immortals. (in exchange for getting charge, which isn't really beneficial early on, and blink which is pretty useless at this point) secondly: storm does 80 damage in a small radius. collosus does 46 in a line PER attack. yes it's true that collosi get hard countered (sigh) by vikings, but i think the same can be said for high templars and ghosts (emp + snipe). the only benefit storm has over collosus is that you can hit air units with it.
Let me waste my time spelling it out for you? Really? You make a claim that is highly controversial right now with no explanation whatsoever and when I point this out you act like the explanation you proceed to give is pure fact agreed on by everyone. If you think colossus are 5x better then fine and thank you for explaining it. I don't consider ghost a hard counter to templar though since a way hasn't been found to prevent templar from being worthwhile (although it's in the works obviously).
On March 22 2010 03:07 Karas wrote:
Terran have it a bit easier, with stim their army is very mobile, and gets healed as it moves. Also marines have more durability now and can survive storm longer.
Stimmed marines won't have time to get out before they die most of the time, and if half or 3/4 make it out they are in the red and it takes too long for them all to get healed up again before the battle proceeds even if you have a good number of medivacs. Your only chance is to start moving as the storm is just about to begin and then you can avoid a fair amount of damage and possibly pass it on to the chargelots.
On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote:
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc.
I'd love to see that game. Still, the emp may cast quickly but being in a position to cast it on the templar before the templar can cast several storms is often very difficult. Try playing a lot of tvp and you'll see it's often impossible/nearly to prevent storms.
|
On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote:
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc.
Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars..
|
On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote:
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars..
Go back and actually read my thread.
I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say.
Reading is hard work.
For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue.
|
On March 22 2010 03:58 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote:
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars.. Go back and actually read my thread. I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say. Reading is hard work. For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue.
Whatever.. Why would you need "balance" between feedback and snipe when ghosts can already disable templars and do 100 area damage at the same time and instantly..and ghost can cloak and call down nukes and have an attack of their own while templar just floats helplessly..
Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units..
Storm should be a bit stronger.. Same dps but increased time..although that might not be stronger if they pull out and you chase trough storm..
|
On March 22 2010 04:12 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 03:58 -orb- wrote:On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote:
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars.. Go back and actually read my thread. I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say. Reading is hard work. For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue. Whatever.. Why would you need "balance" between feedback and snipe when ghosts can already disable templars and do 100 area damage at the same time and instantly..and ghost can cloak and call down nukes and have an attack of their own while templar just floats helplessly.. Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units.. Storm should be a bit stronger..
OH MY GOD STOP QUESTIONING IT, GO READ THE OP FFS
Why would you keep trying to argue like you know everything I'd have to say and everything the thread would have to say when you haven't even read it?!
I hate people like you so much, it's like you think this forum is purely for you to spew your vast knowledge all over the rest of us rather than ever read what other people have to say or discuss these things with other people.
Not that this rant will have any affect on you, you've clearly made up your mind without having any idea what you're talking about whatsoever.
|
It's actually pretty ridiculous how EMP is an instant spell, literally not possible to dodge, and HSM is also an instant damage nuke (literally a fucking nuke, god) and yet there are terrans who demand that a spell thats already easy to dodge to do even less damage?
really?
|
On March 22 2010 04:15 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 04:12 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:58 -orb- wrote:On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote:
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars.. Go back and actually read my thread. I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say. Reading is hard work. For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue. Whatever.. Why would you need "balance" between feedback and snipe when ghosts can already disable templars and do 100 area damage at the same time and instantly..and ghost can cloak and call down nukes and have an attack of their own while templar just floats helplessly.. Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units.. Storm should be a bit stronger.. OH MY GOD STOP QUESTIONING IT, GO READ THE OP FFS Why would you keep trying to argue like you know everything I'd have to say and everything the thread would have to say when you haven't even read it?! I hate people like you so much, it's like you think this forum is purely for you to spew your vast knowledge all over the rest of us rather than ever read what other people have to say or discuss these things with other people. Not that this rant will have any affect on you, you've clearly made up your mind without having any idea what you're talking about whatsoever.
Hi Orb! I love your stream and I think you're a great player with a very analytical mind. That being said, I think you should calm down and feel some love for your fellow TLers! Not everyone will agree with you, and of those people who disagree, most (because of your vast intelligence) will not be able to match you in terms of logic, wit, or even reading comprehension! But maybe the best way to get through to them is with hugs!
That being said, I agree with:
Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units...
Storm is no stronger than it was in BW, it's just that the unit composition that T continues to opt for rolls over and dies to it! Why not make other unit compositions more attractive? I might also be a complete idiot though so don't get mad at me orb!
|
United States24805 Posts
On March 22 2010 04:22 TheAntZ wrote:
It's actually pretty ridiculous how EMP is an instant spell, literally not possible to dodge, and HSM is also an instant damage nuke (literally a fucking nuke, god) and yet there are terrans who demand that a spell thats already easy to dodge to do even less damage?
really?
Congratulations. You are poster number 34 in this thread who takes a potentially viable point and tacks onto it a complaint about the other people rather than just their ideas which you clearly are attempting to refute.
Does emp do the same damage to the core protoss army as storm does to terran? That's obviously a question to address. Also heat seeking missile might warrant its own discussion but I honestly haven't used it much yet so I'm not going to disagree with you about it's possible strength or even imbalance.
Emp won't wipe out the core of the protoss army but storm definitely can wipe out a huge % of the MM almost instantly if good storms are cast on to clumped (stimmed?) units on tight maps. It's a question of how capable terrans will become of minimizing damage from storms and getting of effective EMPs. I'm writing this while listening to day9 so I might not be totally coherent sorry lol
|
On March 22 2010 04:24 love1another wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 04:15 -orb- wrote:On March 22 2010 04:12 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:58 -orb- wrote:On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote:
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars.. Go back and actually read my thread. I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say. Reading is hard work. For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue. Whatever.. Why would you need "balance" between feedback and snipe when ghosts can already disable templars and do 100 area damage at the same time and instantly..and ghost can cloak and call down nukes and have an attack of their own while templar just floats helplessly.. Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units.. Storm should be a bit stronger.. OH MY GOD STOP QUESTIONING IT, GO READ THE OP FFS Why would you keep trying to argue like you know everything I'd have to say and everything the thread would have to say when you haven't even read it?! I hate people like you so much, it's like you think this forum is purely for you to spew your vast knowledge all over the rest of us rather than ever read what other people have to say or discuss these things with other people. Not that this rant will have any affect on you, you've clearly made up your mind without having any idea what you're talking about whatsoever. Hi Orb! I love your stream and I think you're a great player with a very analytical mind. That being said, I think you should calm down and feel some love for your fellow TLers! Not everyone will agree with you, and of those people who disagree, most (because of your vast intelligence) will not be able to match you in terms of logic, wit, or even reading comprehension! But maybe the best way to get through to them is with hugs! That being said, I agree with: Show nested quote +
Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units...
Storm is no stronger than it was in BW, it's just that the unit composition that T continues to opt for rolls over and dies to it! Why not make other unit compositions more attractive? I might also be a complete idiot though so don't get mad at me orb!
I wasn't mad at him for not agreeing with me (he didn't even know what my view was so how could he not agree with it?), I was mad at him for assuming he knew exactly what my viewpoint was without even reading what I had written in that thread.
|
p is yet to weak and u want to nerf it more LOL
storm buff plz not nerf tread poster no idea how hard it is to win with storms in sc2 xD
|
On March 22 2010 04:22 TheAntZ wrote:
It's actually pretty ridiculous how EMP is an instant spell, literally not possible to dodge, and HSM is also an instant damage nuke (literally a fucking nuke, god) and yet there are terrans who demand that a spell thats already easy to dodge to do even less damage?
really?
How is HSM instant? First of all you can see what unit is being the target of the HSM. Secondly its slow and will fall harmlessly to the ground if you run away from it for 5 seconds-_-; Also please don't talk about the HSM in a thread thats about Storm.
|
If anything it deals damage too slowly. You are just bad at micro I think. I see good Zerg juke storm and micro out of storm plenty. Given storms huge tech cost and how long it takes to get it, your complaints are totally off the mark
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
