EPTBut is Snow Reach?
[ASL22] Ro16 Group A - Page 11
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Simplistik
2173 Posts
But is Snow Reach? | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51705 Posts
On September 08 2026 14:00 Simplistik wrote: I guess ASL23 isn't (yet) quite as bad for Protoss as SKY OSL... But is Snow Reach? at this point Snow is refugeetoss like I said. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5981 Posts
On September 08 2026 09:23 chongu wrote: If Rush got 2-1 at the usual 10 minute mark, the game would have ended much much earlier. But he would have had 4 fewer tanks at crucial earlier moments. Had Rush gone for the typical 3 expo 2-1, Best would have had many different option to play, and he be doing it playing into his strength: macro. Rush chose to be in Best's face instead. Seeing how shaky Best was from the first game, I'd say Rush picked the correct strategy. I know this is easy to say at hindsight, and also "Snow would have won". Rush would have had another game left if Best composed himself quickly. It's probably true Protoss is less forgiving on mistakes such as wasting units, but they're also the ones who can get the most value our of their units. Especially one particular unit vs Soma lmao. Protoss just needs to do a little better, be a bit more consistent. Bonyth n Deealt have been doing it for years in their leagues. Bisu, Jangbi (and arguably Stork) have done it in theirs. Snow and Mini have already showed in MPL it's totally possible to dominate with Protoss in this era and their league too Shuttle and Rain got a gold just like JyJ and Royal did. It's possuble. Mini already did it once, and got close to a repeat. Now it's Snow's turn. He just needs to pass his current group and then have someone to kill Soma for him or perhaps he can upgrade his DT game a bit and do it himself. | ||
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prosatan
Romania9420 Posts
On September 08 2026 06:03 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Even after these last seasons and over a decade without a Champion... Artosis will still look you dead in the eye, be 100% serious and tell you Toss is OP Indeed , he will. i was thinking about this. his streams are entertaining mostly because of chat , but how on earth can he be so ignorant ?? | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4458 Posts
On September 08 2026 17:15 prosatan wrote: Indeed , he will. i was thinking about this. his streams are entertaining mostly because of chat , but how on earth can he be so ignorant ?? People are surprised that terran and zerg players don't want a protoss buff? | ||
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InkieB2B
31 Posts
On September 08 2026 17:15 prosatan wrote: Indeed , he will. i was thinking about this. his streams are entertaining mostly because of chat , but how on earth can he be so ignorant ?? Ehh I think what you believe to be OP or not is largely dependant on your skill bracket and even your own playstyle. If you play RTS long enough (doesnt matter which one) you will at some point get to the point where you think one matchup is complete bullshit despite the matchup being equal or even favorable for your race at the top level of players. As long as he doesnt carry it over to official broadcasts outside of a few ironic quips I'm fine with it. We have seen way better players than Artosis whine about matchups that are atleast equal. Sidenote: You think the most entertaining thing about Artosis streams is his chat out of all the things? | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6668 Posts
On September 08 2026 19:04 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: People are surprised that terran and zerg players don't want a protoss buff? Not about them wanting another race to get a buff. Its him, a very knowledgeable and intelligent human being so in denial. Don't need him calling for buffs, but at least stop whining that Toss is op I feel like is a very low bar. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
Soma said in his interview that he went 5 pool because he thought he'd get crushed in a macro game (after just losing a macro game). He won twice with just cheesey zergling plays. It seems like making it easier to make tight wall-ins (1 zealot plug) and the lowground outside the nat being a standard to make 9-7-3 weaker, PvZ can be a lot more competitive Like what toss struggles with is mostly early game -Ling run bys -Hydra busts -Muta+Scourge to pick off toss before he can get 3+ corsairs. If you can't balance that with maps, what would you do to make the PvZ matchup more fair without breaking the balance in mid-game? Maybe photon cannons to have 1 armour (stronger vs lings, hydras, mutas, should be less relevant later in the game) And what about PvT? I feel like that's a matchup that you have to be careful not to make toss way too strong in the early game or all games will look like Snow vs Artosis Like you could try make vulture do 18 damage (still 2 shot lings but needs +2 to 2 shot probes, drones) to make it easier to save probes and then you find out you can never stop nexus first and Snow is going 6 robo reaver drops against Rush lmao Maybe reducing siege tank range by 1 so it doesn't shoot a whole screen away? Shouldn't change much in TvZ I should think | ||
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Xenixx
United States552 Posts
On September 08 2026 00:01 Simplistik wrote: Man alive, watching PvZ is so insanely frustrating. Can someone fix that shit? The maps lately have been too safe for Zerg but nothing is going to fix the Protoss players playing poorly in this tournament. Are the people here now who will say that the Protoss players in these matches played better than the Zerg's that they lost to? | ||
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Xenixx
United States552 Posts
On September 08 2026 08:56 RowdierBob wrote: Soop needs to plan better. The new map pool should be ready to go no more than a week after the end of the previous season. Let the players have a good couple of months to thrash out the balance through their proleagues and other smaller tournaments so that when the next ASL comes aroud there's a decent sample set of the balance. The TvZ imba on half the remaining map pool is pretty grim and an indicator of perhaps what's to come in the ro8 onwards. The map pool is unfortunately having too much influence on results as opposed to player skill. ASL has got to fix it. Eh, there's an argument to be made here that they're also producing something for TV and not having the meta or the maps completely ironed out makes them fresh, new and exciting for the tournament. If I was still playing BW, I would not be at all interested in watching pros play many matches on Lost Temple or Fighting Spirit, and that extends to the current ladder maps. I don't think it's realistic to say that they do not have the time to work out builds or what works on these maps, nor does it take that long for the pro scene to work it out. It never has. We also, as a community, don't want to kill innovation either here. SC2 sucks for this reason and all the innovation comes from the Riot games approach to video games. | ||
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goody153
44311 Posts
On September 08 2026 01:18 seRapH wrote: I don't like sounding like a balance doomer but it's undeniable that PvZ hasn't been fun to watch this season. It's straightup broken matchup. It's statistically backed too in the highest level that matchup is just cooked and this season with jaedong and soulkey complaining for example that the maps attempt to fix the matchup At least tvp is even-ish (there was a time tvp looked broken in favor of protoss with the gas-steal but that strat that got figured out) even tvz is far more balanced even despite recently it is looking like defiler is like truly problematic without a great lead At the highest level. PvZ is kinda just dead with amount of early game option for zerg and the lacking for protoss and how razor-edge it is to just fumble and die with their options. The matchup looked even when Protoss makes it to mid-lategame where it could go either way. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3173 Posts
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines1045 Posts
On September 10 2026 11:49 goody153 wrote: Soma making it out was expected. I expect Best to make it out next but Rush just did better. It's straightup broken matchup. It's statistically backed too in the highest level that matchup is just cooked and this season with jaedong and soulkey complaining for example that the maps attempt to fix the matchup At least tvp is even-ish (there was a time tvp looked broken in favor of protoss with the gas-steal but that strat that got figured out) even tvz is far more balanced even despite recently it is looking like defiler is like truly problematic without a great lead At the highest level. PvZ is kinda just dead with amount of early game option for zerg and the lacking for protoss and how razor-edge it is to just fumble and die with their options. The matchup looked even when Protoss makes it to mid-lategame where it could go either way. 70 million replay analysis shows that at MMR > 2400, the overall win rates are as follows: PvT 46.25% PVZ 47.46% TvZ 55.73% ZvT is actually statistically the worst matchup, people just so blinded by soulkey and soma being the godlike outliers. complaining about defilers when the matchup is already the worst matchup in the game is just... i agree that P needs better maps against Z though, and that 910 was a bit too quick in nerfing odyssey without giving more time for the map statistics to shape up | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1328 Posts
On September 10 2026 16:33 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: 70 million replay analysis shows that at MMR > 2400, the overall win rates are as follows: PvT 46.25% PVZ 47.46% TvZ 55.73% ZvT is actually statistically the worst matchup, people just so blinded by soulkey and soma being the godlike outliers. complaining about defilers when the matchup is already the worst matchup in the game is just... i agree that P needs better maps against Z though, and that 910 was a bit too quick in nerfing odyssey without giving more time for the map statistics to shape up do note the caveat of using 2400+ MMR. The data set is dominated by pro terrans largely playing vs top amateur toss and top amateur to mid pro level zergs. The pro protoss who ladder frequently are not the top pro protoss players. The pro terrans who ladder are all the top pro terrans. You get stronger terrans playing vs weaker zergs and weaker protoss. Instead use map by map data from Eloboard. This will give you a way more accurate and relevant data set relating to pro play than ladder will. There are already maps that have been played professionally that suggested they were balanced based on the data for these maps. The problem last few years has been that very imbalanced maps made it into the map pool, maps which which were obviously going to be zerg favored. Apocalypse, Radeon, Neo Dark Origin, just to name a few. | ||
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Artas1984
156 Posts
On September 07 2026 22:51 winson wrote: Just remove Protoss. Too weak for the highest level The problem is that there are simply more better terran and zerg players than protoss players - particularity in the lower skill department, where "second tier" guys - Motive, Sinz, Paralyze, Tulbo, Ruin, Tyson are not delivering the more constant results of the "second tier" terrans - Ssak, Barracks, Speed, Leta, Mind, Ample, even Mong. Bisu, Mini, Best and Snow are carrying the race for far too long. "Upcoming" players who were supposed to deliver did not deliver. Stork got so old, he is not even ASL level. Shuttle skill level did not develop at all since ASL1. Rain is such an asshole to waste his talent elsewhere, and join ASL "sometimes". And the zerg talent poll is even more impressive still. Light and Hero need to switch to protoss race. And the rule of 3 also does not help Protoss as well (P > T) (T > Z) (Z >> P). It's too late for a patch. If there was time to patch the game to make PvZ actually fucking balanced, it was during the launch of SC Remastered. What a waste. Funny how terrans got inadvertently buffed versus zerg in SC Remastered by making proper use of fixed Valkyrie attack vectors. This even started a whole valk/wraith combo in TvT and TvZ which was not a thing before. | ||
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TMNT
3404 Posts
On September 11 2026 02:00 Artas1984 wrote: I am so pissed at the fact that this season was supposed to be protoss favored, and yet this is the worst season BY FAR. The problem is that there are simply more better terran and zerg players than protoss players - particularity in the lower skill department, where "second tier" guys - Motive, Sinz, Paralyze, Tulbo, Ruin, Tyson are not delivering the more constant results of the "second tier" terrans - Ssak, Barracks, Speed, Leta, Mind, Ample, even Mong. Bisu, Mini, Best and Snow are carrying the race for far too long. "Upcoming" players who were supposed to deliver did not deliver. Stork got so old, he is not even ASL level. Shuttle skill level did not develop at all since ASL1. Rain is such an asshole to waste his talent elsewhere, and join ASL "sometimes". And the zerg talent poll is even more impressive still. Light and Hero need to switch to protoss race. And the rule of 3 also does not help Protoss as well (P > T) (T > Z) (Z >> P). It's too late for a patch. If there was time to patch the game to make PvZ actually fucking balanced, it was during the launch of SC Remastered. What a waste. Funny how terrans got inadvertently buffed versus zerg in SC Remastered by making proper use of fixed Valkyrie attack vectors. This even started a whole valk/wraith combo in TvT and TvZ which was not a thing before. There is no second tier Zergs either. - In the top tier of Protoss we have Bisu, Mini, Best , Snow, Rain (5) - The equivalent tier of Zerg sees Soma, Soulkey, Queen, Hero, JD, Effort, Larva (7) - Both races see one or two guys in that "tier 1.5": Shuttle, Stork, Free, Action, Shine - Then after that Zerg also has no one either, only the likes of Calm, ggaemo, Killer, Sacsri, Zelot, BTS who make it into Ro24 occasionally just like Tulbo, Paralyze, Motive, etc. Only Terran has a nice distribution of players in different tiers. You arguably have: Flash > Light > Rush Royal > JYJ Sharp > Barracks sSak Speed Mind > Mong Leta Scan Shinee You can see how many more steps in between the tier of Mong Leta Scan Shinee (equivalent of the second tier of Protoss and Zerg) to reach Terran's top tier. This suggests to me that Terran rewards hard work more, while for Protoss and Zerg if you dont have the special talent, your peak is that second tier and you'll never get past the cutoff to reach the top level. And this probably applies to Protoss even more: all those names in the top tier are established players during Kespa. For Zerg you have Soma and Larva who were never in the roster of any Kespa teams. For Terran you have even more. | ||
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Tanzklaue
Germany1433 Posts
Best vs soma game 2and Shuttle vs Rush game 2 were both really good. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1328 Posts
On September 11 2026 06:54 TMNT wrote: There is no second tier Zergs either. - In the top tier of Protoss we have Bisu, Mini, Best , Snow, Rain (5) - The equivalent tier of Zerg sees Soma, Soulkey, Queen, Hero, JD, Effort, Larva (7) - Both races see one or two guys in that "tier 1.5": Shuttle, Stork, Free, Action, Shine - Then after that Zerg also has no one either, only the likes of Calm, ggaemo, Killer, Sacsri, Zelot, BTS who make it into Ro24 occasionally just like Tulbo, Paralyze, Motive, etc. Only Terran has a nice distribution of players in different tiers. You arguably have: Flash > Light > Rush Royal > JYJ Sharp > Barracks sSak Speed Mind > Mong Leta Scan Shinee You can see how many more steps in between the tier of Mong Leta Scan Shinee (equivalent of the second tier of Protoss and Zerg) to reach Terran's top tier. This suggests to me that Terran rewards hard work more, while for Protoss and Zerg if you dont have the special talent, your peak is that second tier and you'll never get past the cutoff to reach the top level. And this probably applies to Protoss even more: all those names in the top tier are established players during Kespa. For Zerg you have Soma and Larva who were never in the roster of any Kespa teams. For Terran you have even more. I would arrange differently. Flash > Light > Rush Speed > Royal > Sharp JyJ > Mind Barracks sSak > Scan Mong Leta Shinee Bishop Mong > the othera. SnOw > Best Bisu > Mini > Rain > Shuttle > Stork Rich Paralyze YSC Free > Motive > Ssinz and others etc. Soma > Soulkey EffOrt HerO Jaedong Queen Larva > Action Shine BTS SoO > Sacsri Calm Ggaemo Killer Beast > ZeloT ddasik Hyuk > others etc. | ||
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Smorrie
Netherlands2956 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1328 Posts
On September 12 2026 04:37 Smorrie wrote: Having a larger talent pool definitely helps, but when looking at players who are actively pioneering successful adjustments and/or shaping the meta, these subjective skill brackets don't matter too much anyway. I feel P has been overly reliant on Bisu for way too long, where the load for T and Z is carried much wider. I would say that is false. PvZ is still played in Bisu's style, but PvT has been all Mini, SnOw, Best, and Rich shaping it. Very little Bisu involved in shaping PvT metas. | ||
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