EPT![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/d/d7/44_Detonation.jpg/400px-44_Detonation.jpg)
If Zerg can win in this map (Detonation), ASL will be ended after season 23.
[ASL22] Ro24 Group F - Page 8
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PositiveDungeon
7 Posts
If Zerg can win in this map (Detonation), ASL will be ended after season 23. | ||
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Mrs Crabbleman
31 Posts
So like instead of splitting the zerg just runs their workers. It's like win the fastest finger question from Who Wants a Million Dollars (old tV show) or lose all drones to scarab instantly. But zerg start with 300 mins so they can make hatchery somewhere else and then drone scout/ harass while hatch warps in. It's like nomads from Empire of Ages. So cool. Then Mini still loses because he went up to fleet beacon before making attacking unit. Or just barely wins because he is actually super high skills. I think this would be gg. No re but possible re. If works and is funner then u can expand idea to other matches like Terrans Vs Protoss where Protosses have 1 group of dragoon w/o range in Terran main at start and Terran lifts but start with 400 min or even 600 min for balancing. | ||
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Maks
Ukraine196 Posts
On August 31 2026 04:49 Xenixx wrote: It also ignores the reality of the game being played. If there was a clear imbalance for ZvP then less skilled Z players would be beating higher skilled players regularly or consistently because the match up is favored for them. You simply don't see this. Ironically, the only hand waving is done from the position that ZvP is imbalanced in favor of the Zerg because you don't look at performance. The problem with everyone pushing this argument rests solely with you telling the rest of us that those Protoss players that lost played better than the Zerg players they played against, especially on P favored maps or scenarios. When you put it like that, suddenly no one dares believe it. The balance whining has never been anything more than knee jerk reactions based on a lack of understanding from a more casual audience. Can you name any offline StarLeague, WCG, or similar final from either the KeSPA or post-KeSPA era where a Protoss defeated a Zerg, and the player wasn't Bisu? Because I can't think of one. If it really isn't a race balance issue, how is it possible that Protoss players lost nearly 20 finals to Zerg without taking a single title? | ||
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goody153
44298 Posts
On August 31 2026 04:49 Xenixx wrote: It also ignores the reality of the game being played. If there was a clear imbalance for ZvP then less skilled Z players would be beating higher skilled players regularly or consistently because the match up is favored for them. You simply don't see this. Ironically, the only hand waving is done from the position that ZvP is imbalanced in favor of the Zerg because you don't look at performance. The problem with everyone pushing this argument rests solely with you telling the rest of us that those Protoss players that lost played better than the Zerg players they played against, especially on P favored maps or scenarios. When you put it like that, suddenly no one dares believe it. The balance whining has never been anything more than knee jerk reactions based on a lack of understanding from a more casual audience. You say this as if this is like new and hasn't been happening for a very long time. It's only just ZvP too. At least TvZ and TvP you can clearly see it going either way | ||
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Xenixx
United States536 Posts
On September 01 2026 00:25 Maks wrote: Can you name any offline StarLeague, WCG, or similar final from either the KeSPA or post-KeSPA era where a Protoss defeated a Zerg, and the player wasn't Bisu? Because I can't think of one. If it really isn't a race balance issue, how is it possible that Protoss players lost nearly 20 finals to Zerg without taking a single title? Bisu and Mini are the only two Protoss worth examining closely, it seems to me. The rest of the races players are not good against Zerg and never have been. Even Jangbi wasn't consistently that great, and Rain's record against Z here looks on par with the rest of the players for P. Again, the only thing that matters is whether you believe those Protoss players in those games played better than the Zerg players that they lost against. Whether it was 20 years ago or yesterday. | ||
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TMNT
3296 Posts
Imagine Protoss starting with 4 probes and Zerg starting with 3 drones - a very obvious disadvantage to Zerg. Players like Shuttle and Tulbo would smash the likes of Soulkey. Applying the same principles you could say things like "but the Zerg players aren't playing well, they have to play better". A common mistake the Zergs would make is not building enough Sunkens to defend the Zealot bust.... Now tone that example down significantly. What if there is a small, subtle disadvantage in the gameplay that shows its effect most clearly when two players of the same level meet, e.g. in finals, where the best of each race plays each other. It's so simple, so basic logic. It's madness to me that there are plenty of people who still think the game doesn't have balance issue and players are the problem. If the drivers of a car all have the same problems, maybe it's time to question the car. | ||
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Mrs Crabbleman
31 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + What about... Zerg starts with: + Show Spoiler + 49 mins and 0 drone And Protoss starts with + Show Spoiler + 49 mins and 0 scv And it's just a wrap battle. Whoever can out-rap. And we get the latest and best AI model to say the winner. Also if someone gets out-rapped hard they can honorably just leave the game. Sometimes you can't win a rap. For instance maybe the Protoss can say + Show Spoiler + your mama so fat she less balance than pvz Then the Z claps back and type + Show Spoiler + u mad bro At that point the AI model could come in and declare + Show Spoiler + Zerg Anyway | ||
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Tanzklaue
Germany1422 Posts
On September 01 2026 01:09 Xenixx wrote: Bisu and Mini are the only two Protoss worth examining closely, it seems to me. The rest of the races players are not good against Zerg and never have been. Even Jangbi wasn't consistently that great, and Rain's record against Z here looks on par with the rest of the players for P. Again, the only thing that matters is whether you believe those Protoss players in those games played better than the Zerg players that they lost against. Whether it was 20 years ago or yesterday. Snow literally has a better winrate against zerg than both mini and bisu, and he collected most of those wins in the zerg dominant era. | ||
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Xenixx
United States536 Posts
On September 02 2026 00:22 Tanzklaue wrote: Snow literally has a better winrate against zerg than both mini and bisu, and he collected most of those wins in the zerg dominant era. According to whom? On LP he's 53.1% total, which is on par with the rest of the Protoss pros. Specifically 38% against soma, 40% against soulkey, 37% against hero and 35% against JD. Snow is not good against Zerg pros, just effort. | ||
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Maks
Ukraine196 Posts
It also helps that Flash has TvZ as his weakest matchup. Because of this, pretty much any top-tier Zerg who knows the matchup (JD, Queen, Soma, Soulkey, Effort) can beat him in a series, even if they aren't entering as the favorite. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23357 Posts
On September 02 2026 04:43 Maks wrote: In theory, TvZ actually favors Terran as well, but it feels way less hopeless especially now that Zergs abandoned the 3 Hatch Lair build. That meta's mid-game was ridiculously imbalanced, forcing unupgraded Mutas into +1 Marines and constantly delaying or denying Zerg's 3rd base. Yet another reason to say 'fuck sAviOr' for popularizing it. It also helps that Flash has TvZ as his weakest matchup. Because of this, pretty much any top-tier Zerg who knows the matchup (JD, Queen, Soma, Soulkey, Effort) can beat him in a series, even if they aren't entering as the favorite. Isn't 2 Hatch is really because of 1/1/1 builds with fast wraith? Wraith will kill all your overlords if you have late spire and going hydras you kind of don't want to do People are already playing 2.5 hatch and terrans are playing +1 attack so it does become a game of muta / ling vs bio trying to deny third And with that 2.5 hatch I see a lot of zergs pausing muta production to finish droning up which is already done by the time 3rd hatch has mutas out (more larva and more time before spire is done) With 3 hatch you get your second gas early, mutas about 40 seconds later, but you can get 9 at a time and you have more larva for drones and lings, I think it's not worse vs bio? Terran needs to get turrets up earlier for sure and the +1 attack is 40 seconds later but that is really for 2 shotting turrets, for harassing marines im not sure the +1 attack upgrade is that impactful, you'd probably rather the +1 carapace I feel like the tactics zergs have incorporated to hold against Terran with defilers are what made ZvT more equal -Stacked lurkers/overlord on top to deny irradiate harass -Nydus as a standard to allow relatively easy 4 base defense -Much faster hive rushes -Tighter muta control with magic box to make it easier to prevent any fast siege tank timing push pre-hive | ||
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