EPT[ASL22] Ro24 Group F - Page 7
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RowdierBob
Australia13480 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1293 Posts
On August 27 2026 19:42 PositiveDungeon wrote: What do you mean? (3) Apocalypse (3) Apocalypse (3) Apocalypse (3) Apocalypse (3) Apocalypse (3) Apocalypse (3) Apocalypse It's so boring. If we have Random for all, we don't need to care about map pool anymore. It's real fair for all game, all best of x. *chef's kiss* Perfection. But silliness aside. Grab the most balanced maps fron Eloboard and make that the map pool. | ||
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goody153
44298 Posts
Congrats to whoever is gonna be the new zerg champion | ||
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Sabu113
United States11106 Posts
Feel slightly depressed. Hopefully Snow gets some results but I don't think a toss can win in a bo7 pvz. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3162 Posts
On August 27 2026 19:20 PositiveDungeon wrote: In the next season, map pool should be like this: (2) Eclipse (2) Baekmagoji (2) Third World (3) Central Plains (3) Inner Coven (3) Outlier (4) Charity This map pool sponsored by Quikz. | ||
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Simplistik
2169 Posts
Joking aside, it is part of the problem that Terran don't have many really competitive top players right now. Just Light and Rush isn't enough to thin out the Zerg numbers. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12054 Posts
I still will forever die on this hill that Zerg overall in the early game is better than Protoss and it feels at least with the meta of PvZ as it's been and the 'standard' maps essentially being the same main/natural setup as they have been since pretty much 2009 nothing is going to get better with PvZ without basically breaking it in the other direction. We need a shake up in maps to make things easier for Protoss vs Zerg, but often times those same changes make Terran better vs Zerg and then Zerg start losing absolutely everything. We need maps where essentially Hydra Busts are not an option. I don't see any other way to see Protoss ever getting anywhere against Zerg as the metagame can't change when the Zerg can just choose to end the game whenever they feel like it. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13480 Posts
It’s why PvZ is so imbalanced in island maps. Protoss can dominate the air without having to worry about any early game ling and/or hydra pressure (and it’s much harder for Zergs to expand). Mini didn’t lose because of PvZ bs though. Zero was well prepared in his Mini build and thoroughly outplayed him. And in the last game he just didn’t his coin flip Mini shit with his zealot push out and lost. | ||
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Mrs Crabbleman
32 Posts
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ruhtraeel
Canada136 Posts
On August 26 2026 21:14 Zografa wrote: 8z 5t 3p interesting race distro for ro16, my boy JD has a decent chance with so many zvz's and the only player he is absolute underdog against is light JD isn't even that good against Zerg in the modern era Queen, Hero and Effort are all better ZvZ than him | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5827 Posts
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PositiveDungeon
7 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23357 Posts
On August 29 2026 05:16 Qikz wrote: Back in the day we had a lot of imbalanced maps but it wasn't a major deal as there were two sets of major tournaments and proleagues every week to work on shifting maps around and setting up counter play for maps as players would very rarely play against each other and nothing else was broadcast so you could actually work in those kinds of plays. It's why I will always believe Proleague was 100x more interesting than OSL and MSL combined.The issue is now due to streaming the maps are figured out long before the tournament even starts. I still will forever die on this hill that Zerg overall in the early game is better than Protoss and it feels at least with the meta of PvZ as it's been and the 'standard' maps essentially being the same main/natural setup as they have been since pretty much 2009 nothing is going to get better with PvZ without basically breaking it in the other direction. We need a shake up in maps to make things easier for Protoss vs Zerg, but often times those same changes make Terran better vs Zerg and then Zerg start losing absolutely everything. We need maps where essentially Hydra Busts are not an option. I don't see any other way to see Protoss ever getting anywhere against Zerg as the metagame can't change when the Zerg can just choose to end the game whenever they feel like it. I think hydra bust is a little too strong a possibility especially when its hard to scout Maps like backrooms where there is a lowground front which is good v hydra bust and 2 rax academy bust should be probably healthy for the game? The amount of ASL games PvZ ending in a hydra bust is really disappointing Removing the hydra bust games I feel like it's a great matchup, I don't think its too imbalanced? It's definitely UNBALANCED, I think protoss has an edge in midgame with goon templar at 2/1 (unless templars all get sniped, but I feel like maelstrom is an option if you are ever that worried, to completely negate mutalisks) and then lategame zerg is favoured Mini's play seemed a bit desperate going Nexus first (when pool first is extremely standard, can he at least hold overpool and be ahead of forge nexus?) and that weird zealot pressure with no scout and no defense at home | ||
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Mrs Crabbleman
32 Posts
PvZ is actually my favorite matchup but the early game problems get in the way sometimes. The early can also be amazing, it just depends on how things roll out. It is true that if protoss were to be more comfortable, their mid-game could be stronger which might be dangerous. Scales tip easily and I don't think people fully realize how delicate the balance really is. One thing I would propose is a map contest with real incentive. Juice the prize up a bit and get some ideas flowing. Then run a PvZ tournament to see how things play out at a high level. If the bracket proceeds in a way that finds zvz and pvp, then the players could just switch spots in the bracket. Or not. I would happily donate a few bucks to a serious PvZ map contest. Could experiment with a map that has a structure like the goblin lab from warcraft that offers neutral scans for a fee. Perhaps in the center of the map. Or a neutral robotics that sells observers that produce instantly. I wouldn't hate lots of experimentation with terrain, such as the trenches on KnockOut. It'd be cool to see wilder ideas, like a worker activating a doodad or neutral structure by entering a circle of power. Alternatively, Samantha Morton could come out of a milk bath and tell Tom Cruise to repel down and kick the dude in the larynx if they even think about a den before 4:30. Full Minority Report style. Nip it in the bud. That said, I really don't mind zerg aggression because it's necessary to keep protoss honest. It's just boring to watch hydras shoot down walls. All of this just to see what the games look like and if they're more fun to play and watch. Not as if any circuitous solution will be super graceful or solve everything perfectly. StarCraft won't and shouldn't be patched, for obvious reasons, but I'm confident maps can do most of the heavy lifting. We absolutely should not be reactive in a way that encourages map makers and tourney organizers to be conservative because then things become very static and boring. In a 30 year old game that has no intention of fundamentally changing, this would be unfortunate. | ||
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Tanzklaue
Germany1422 Posts
Watching the games though, and honestly? A lot of protoss woes the past few seasons have been selfinflicted. Protoss gotta nut up and be better than this. | ||
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Maks
Ukraine197 Posts
On August 30 2026 02:50 Tanzklaue wrote: Watching the results,one would say 'Protoss is clearly underpowered and in dire need of help!' Watching the games though, and honestly? A lot of protoss woes the past few seasons have been selfinflicted. Protoss gotta nut up and be better than this. Balance can never be judged based on just a handful of games or even a couple of seasons. Protoss has been underperforming compared to Zerg—and especially Terran—for over 25 years, ever since Patch 1.08 hit in May 2001 and heavily nerfed them. Here’s the title distribution across the most prestigious StarLeagues (OSL, MSL, KSL, ASL): Terran: 35 (42.7%) Zerg: 31 (37.8%) Protoss: 16 (19.5%) Total StarLeagues: 82 And here’s the breakdown including lesser-known leagues, just so no one accuses me of cherry-picking data (SonicTV BJ Starleague, SSL Classic Season 1, HungryApp Starz League with Kongdoo): Terran: 40 (41.7%) Zerg: 37 (38.5%) Protoss: 19 (19.8%) Total StarLeagues: 96 You can’t just hand-wave this away with "they need to play better." This is a systemic issue. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12054 Posts
On August 30 2026 04:07 Maks wrote: Balance can never be judged based on just a handful of games or even a couple of seasons. Protoss has been underperforming compared to Zerg—and especially Terran—for over 25 years, ever since Patch 1.08 hit in May 2001 and heavily nerfed them. Here’s the title distribution across the most prestigious StarLeagues (OSL, MSL, KSL, ASL): Terran: 35 (42.7%) Zerg: 31 (37.8%) Protoss: 16 (19.5%) Total StarLeagues: 82 And here’s the breakdown including lesser-known leagues, just so no one accuses me of cherry-picking data (SonicTV BJ Starleague, SSL Classic Season 1, HungryApp Starz League with Kongdoo): Terran: 40 (41.7%) Zerg: 37 (38.5%) Protoss: 19 (19.8%) Total StarLeagues: 96 You can’t just hand-wave this away with "they need to play better." This is a systemic issue. I think the Starleague stat would've looked a lot better had SC2 never came out, JangBi would've never quit and he was genuinely on a level above any other protoss player at the time, but I guess we'll never know how things would have changed. It's also ignoring Proleague. Protoss players in Proleague literally caused the 'Legend of the Fall' or whatever it was called at the time due to how well the six? dragons were doing. Protoss I think can absolutely do better in a Bo1 team league format than they can in a Starleague format. I think ignoring all the old data might be for the best, because the game now is a completely different beast. It's pretty much either only spongames, ASL or something like race survivor or whatever it's called. The meta has shifted so drastically now that the old mantra of P > T > Z isn't even true any more at least at the pro level. Protoss are no longer just struggling against Zerg (thinking historically there were maybe one or two Protoss players who were known for their PvZ and everyone else had horrific winrates), but the historically PvT specialists just cannot win in the same way as they used to. Stork fell off majorly unfortunately, a lot of the better PvT players all retired or don't play nearly as much any more. I don't know if this is because of the maps or because the playstyle of Terran has changed enough that the old play styles don't work, but think of how much Stork used to dominate Terran with his carriers and Jangbi dominated with his high templars. The other thing was always taking another main and smashing into the Terran with a huge eco/multiple angles. It genuinely feels like we don't have any PvT players at that level anymore and surely it can't all be down to just balance. Also this ASL specifically it doesn't help that most of the Protoss players knocked themselves out by either doing something weird (Mini) or in PvPs lol (see Shuttle's qualifier brackets) I would love if there was a way to collate all the qualifier data for all the ASL seasons to see historically how many protoss players have taken part, how many have lost and how. | ||
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Xenixx
United States536 Posts
Ironically, the only hand waving is done from the position that ZvP is imbalanced in favor of the Zerg because you don't look at performance. The problem with everyone pushing this argument rests solely with you telling the rest of us that those Protoss players that lost played better than the Zerg players they played against, especially on P favored maps or scenarios. When you put it like that, suddenly no one dares believe it. The balance whining has never been anything more than knee jerk reactions based on a lack of understanding from a more casual audience. | ||
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TMNT
3302 Posts
On August 31 2026 04:49 Xenixx wrote: It also ignores the reality of the game being played. If there was a clear imbalance for ZvP then less skilled Z players would be beating higher skilled players regularly or consistently because the match up is favored for them. You simply don't see this. What if there is a small imbalance that only manifests in games between players of equal skill level? | ||
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Sabu113
United States11106 Posts
On August 31 2026 04:49 Xenixx wrote: It also ignores the reality of the game being played. If there was a clear imbalance for ZvP then less skilled Z players would be beating higher skilled players regularly or consistently because the match up is favored for them. You simply don't see this. Ironically, the only hand waving is done from the position that ZvP is imbalanced in favor of the Zerg because you don't look at performance. The problem with everyone pushing this argument rests solely with you telling the rest of us that those Protoss players that lost played better than the Zerg players they played against, especially on P favored maps or scenarios. When you put it like that, suddenly no one dares believe it. The balance whining has never been anything more than knee jerk reactions based on a lack of understanding from a more casual audience. I mean you can definitely argue for a long time worse zergs beat better protoss.It took like 7 years for them to semi-solve 3 hatch hydra. Not exactly relevant here but I think we have enough data to make some definitive claims about the design of early game in this matchup. | ||
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