On October 24 2007 13:36 Purind wrote: Exciting! Free, show us your some Godly PvZ skills. Prove to us that Bisu's PvZ isn't definitely the best one out there!
I doubt Savior will play free 100% straight up like he did against bisu, Reminiscent of Savior vs Hwasin, I doubt we'll see savior play his trip hatch every game, he'll change it up and make free work for it (but probably lose anyways). Can someone tell me though, what's free so good at in PvZ that Stork and Bisu can't do? Just game sense?
On October 24 2007 17:23 IaniAniaN wrote: I doubt Savior will play free 100% straight up like he did against bisu, Reminiscent of Savior vs Hwasin, I doubt we'll see savior play his trip hatch every game, he'll change it up and make free work for it (but probably lose anyways). Can someone tell me though, what's free so good at in PvZ that Stork and Bisu can't do? Just game sense?
What the hell are you talking about? Bisu is best PvZ on earth...
On October 24 2007 17:23 IaniAniaN wrote: I doubt sAviOr will play free 100% straight up like he did against Bisu, Reminiscent of sAviOr vs Hwasin, I doubt we'll see sAviOr play his trip hatch every game, he'll change it up and make free work for it (but probably lose anyways). Can someone tell me though, what's free so good at in PvZ that Stork and Bisu can't do? Just game sense?
What the hell are you talking about? Bisu is BeSt PvZ on earth...
But not forever.
Do not underestimate sAviOr, i know he`ll use his god powers and smash that Protoss little wh**e
I would love to see Savior lose this one. He just keeps winning at ZvP against everyone who isn't Bisu and that needs to change. I don't know if Free can pull it off however. Probably 3:1 or 3:2 to Savior, but this could go either way so easily.
Game 1 -- Savior has yet to lose a ZvP on Python (even though his ZvT sucks there). Free has lost exactly 2 PvZ matches on Python... both to Savior. Savior > Free
Game 2 -- I honestly have no idea. Records indicate that P has the advantage, but only 9 ZvP matches total have been played. The map is unusual and I have yet to play it. However, I will go Savior, since I don't think the balance is enough to push this game into Free's favor, though I might be wrong. Savior > Free
Game 3 -- Only 1 PvZ total has been played here and as I would expect, P won that match. With the base behind the main like that, this map is really good for PvZ. Free will be able to get upto 3 bases easily and go into macro mode from there with Savior unable to curb it, only go into macro mode himself. I think Free's precision PvZ senses will clinch it. Savior < Free
Game 4 -- This map seems pretty well balanced in PvZ to me. That essentially means Savior has the advantage. Savior > Free
On October 24 2007 22:26 Mortality wrote: Predictions
Game 1 -- Savior has yet to lose a ZvP on Python (even though his ZvT sucks there). Free has lost exactly 2 PvZ matches on Python... both to Savior. Savior > Free
Game 2 -- I honestly have no idea. Records indicate that P has the advantage, but only 9 ZvP matches total have been played. The map is unusual and I have yet to play it. However, I will go Savior, since I don't think the balance is enough to push this game into Free's favor, though I might be wrong. Savior > Free
Game 3 -- Only 1 PvZ total has been played here and as I would expect, P won that match. With the base behind the main like that, this map is really good for PvZ. Free will be able to get upto 3 bases easily and go into macro mode from there with Savior unable to curb it, only go into macro mode himself. I think Free's precision PvZ senses will clinch it. Savior < Free
Game 4 -- This map seems pretty well balanced in PvZ to me. That essentially means Savior has the advantage. Savior > Free
Savior 3 - Free 1
100% Agree with this. If Free pulls away 2 wins, game 5 is on Python and I don't see Savior losing on it
On October 25 2007 00:30 rushz0rz wrote: Free 3-2 Savior.
Precisely! As I said in a different thread...
9 of the 283 reasons why Free is going to beat Savior:
1) Remember that episode of Family Guy where Lois' Tae-Jitsu instructor tells her to "free the beast"? See any similarities to the name Free[gm]? Free is going to free his beast all over Savior's forehead. 2) Incidentally, "Free the Beast" is also the name of Slauter Xstroyes' second album--yet another reference to Free slaughtering Savior. 3) The original savior, Jesus Christ, got nailed to a fucking cross. Who was responsible? Not the Jews. No, it was Free. 4) Savior's original handle was IPXZerg. The Korean prefix IPX roughly translates to "that guy who loses to Free on October 25, 2007." 5) The weakest Protoss unit is the zealot. The weakest Zerg unit is the zergling. One versus one, who wins? That's right, the zealot. And lest you say that it's "not a fair comparison," just remember that this series is one versus one. 6) Nietzsche declared that God is dead, which means that there's no one to give Savior his usual divine inspiration. 7) It's a little known fact that Savior's team, CJ, stands for "Complete Jokes." 8) I've referred to Free as "The Perfect Storm" once or twice. One of the maps is Blue Storm. Coincidence? I THINK NOT. 9) One of the maps is Zodiac. Free is a Sagittarius. Savior is a Cancer. Based upon these indisputable facts, we can safely say that Free is going to prove to be a figurative tumor in Savior's brain.
(Feel free to add the rest if you know them! I'm just tired of typing.)
On October 25 2007 00:50 DJEtterStyle wrote: Precisely! As I said in a different thread...
5) The weakest Protoss unit is the zealot. The weakest Zerg unit is the zergling. One versus one, who wins? That's right, the zealot. And lest you say that it's "not a fair comparison," just remember that this series is one versus one.
7) It's a little known fact that Savior's team, CJ, stands for "Complete Jokes."
8) I've referred to Free as "The Perfect Storm" once or twice. One of the maps is Blue Storm. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
I still don't see how people can think savior will lose to free... free is 0-4 vs savior, and savior just beat stork 2-1... I don't think free is nearly as good as stork at any match up.
On October 25 2007 00:30 rushz0rz wrote: Free 3-2 Savior.
Precisely! As I said in a different thread...
9 of the 283 reasons why Free is going to beat Savior:
1) Remember that episode of Family Guy where Lois' Tae-Jitsu instructor tells her to "free the beast"? See any similarities to the name Free[gm]? Free is going to free his beast all over Savior's forehead. 2) Incidentally, "Free the Beast" is also the name of Slauter Xstroyes' second album--yet another reference to Free slaughtering Savior. 3) The original savior, Jesus Christ, got nailed to a fucking cross. Who was responsible? Not the Jews. No, it was Free. 4) Savior's original handle was IPXZerg. The Korean prefix IPX roughly translates to "that guy who loses to Free on October 25, 2007." 5) The weakest Protoss unit is the zealot. The weakest Zerg unit is the zergling. One versus one, who wins? That's right, the zealot. And lest you say that it's "not a fair comparison," just remember that this series is one versus one. 6) Nietzsche declared that God is dead, which means that there's no one to give Savior his usual divine inspiration. 7) It's a little known fact that Savior's team, CJ, stands for "Complete Jokes." 8) I've referred to Free as "The Perfect Storm" once or twice. One of the maps is Blue Storm. Coincidence? I THINK NOT. 9) One of the maps is Zodiac. Free is a Sagittarius. Savior is a Cancer. Based upon these indisputable facts, we can safely say that Free is going to prove to be a figurative tumor in Savior's brain.
(Feel free to add the rest if you know them! I'm just tired of typing.)
On October 25 2007 02:44 Myrmidon wrote: Free's PvZ is probably 2nd-best right now, better than Stork's.
I guess if you consider JulyZerg and Jaedong great PvZ opponents... the fact is, free has never beat Savior. Looking at his record of games, he hasn't played that many great zerg's at PvZ. He's definitely no Bisu
It seems nearly impossible to win against good protoss these days. Strong units that require less micro, a very strategical play where the player doesn't have to rely on intuition or skill... gg So I think Free has the advantage. I'd say 3-1 for Free. But I would really like the Maestro to win...
Savior and Free's past record convinces me that Savior should take this one, but Savior's game has been up and down as of late. It's too bad I can't stay up and watch this one, I'm really hyped up for it too.
On October 25 2007 03:44 viceroy wrote: It seems nearly impossible to win against good protoss these days. Strong units that require less micro, a very strategical play where the player doesn't have to rely on intuition or skill... gg
On October 25 2007 03:44 viceroy wrote: It seems nearly impossible to win against good protoss these days. Strong units that require less micro, a very strategical play where the player doesn't have to rely on intuition or skill... gg So I think Free has the advantage. I'd say 3-1 for Free. But I would really like the Maestro to win...
On October 25 2007 03:44 viceroy wrote: It seems nearly impossible to win against good protoss these days. Strong units that require less micro, a very strategical play where the player doesn't have to rely on intuition or skill... gg So I think Free has the advantage. I'd say 3-1 for Free. But I would really like the Maestro to win...
Yeah, stork is such a pushover
Savior got lucky killing Stork's shuttle, and second game that he won was not very convincing either. Then Savior lost to Pj, it's all because of the game mechanics, not because Pj was better. Protoss power will increase over time, not decrease.
On October 25 2007 03:44 viceroy wrote: It seems nearly impossible to win against good protoss these days. Strong units that require less micro, a very strategical play where the player doesn't have to rely on intuition or skill... gg
ROFL Dumbest post of the week
Care to comment ? or you're just making stupid statements to reach your quota for today ?
On October 25 2007 04:07 lovetramy wrote: impossible to win a good toss ? lolz
you understand the meaning of nearly ? yes ? that is many tanks ? yes ? Many good players changed races (Testie, Goody comes to mind) to be protoss players, right ? I think they could provide you with good arguments. But then again, I'm not sure you'd understand and would be just a waste of time. misquoting me and then adding at the end a meaningful lolz, makes for a good post, and gives insides into your brain development.
viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
if savior is on a slump he could lose but screw that im going for MaeJaeYoon all the way! my predictions on the finals is going to be MaeJaeYoon vs KimTaekYong (Savior vs Bisu)
On October 25 2007 04:07 lovetramy wrote: impossible to win a good toss ? lolz
you understand the meaning of nearly ? yes ? that is many tanks ? yes ? Many good players changed races (Testie, Goody comes to mind) to be protoss players, right ? I think they could provide you with good arguments. But then again, I'm not sure you'd understand and would be just a waste of time. misquoting me and then adding at the end a meaningful lolz, makes for a good post, and gives insides into your brain development.
Cause neither of them have the required hand speed to play Zerg or Terran.
On October 25 2007 03:44 viceroy wrote: It seems nearly impossible to win against good protoss these days. Strong units that require less micro, a very strategical play where the player doesn't have to rely on intuition or skill... gg So I think Free has the advantage. I'd say 3-1 for Free. But I would really like the Maestro to win...
OK, so is the strong unit that require less micro, no intuition, no skill description of PvZ only true today? Why has it not been true for the 6 years prior to this? Did it take a genius like Bisu to figure out that protoss has strong units and that PvZ takes no skill? Did all P players for the past 6 years lose PvZ because they didn't know how to use strong units that require no micro and require no intuition and skill? Oh, maybe they tried to use skill and that's why they lost lawl
Maybe it is hard to win ZvP nowadays, but please, give us real reasons instead of that bullshit explanation of yours
yay sAviOr is going to tear this protoss. I see 3-1 with Free taking a game on either python or loki. sAviOr's ZvP is still the strongest matchup in all of progaming. His ZvT may be less effective, but I don't see him losing zvp against a non-bisu toss.
On October 24 2007 17:23 IaniAniaN wrote: I doubt Savior will play free 100% straight up like he did against bisu, Reminiscent of Savior vs Hwasin, I doubt we'll see savior play his trip hatch every game, he'll change it up and make free work for it (but probably lose anyways). Can someone tell me though, what's free so good at in PvZ that Stork and Bisu can't do? Just game sense?
What the hell are you talking about? Bisu is best PvZ on earth...
I meant that Savior is obviously going to win, I was just wondering what free does in ZvP that's so exceptional that people think he could pull this off?
On October 25 2007 03:44 viceroy wrote: It seems nearly impossible to win against good protoss these days. Strong units that require less micro, a very strategical play where the player doesn't have to rely on intuition or skill... gg
ROFL Dumbest post of the week
Care to comment ? or you're just making stupid statements to reach your quota for today ?
I'm pretty sure Z's still beat toss the majority of the time... This is no worse than the Dark Ages were for toss, when no matter what toss went against another player it seemed like the other player would always win, and toss winning ANY game was a cause for a happy week.
i guess free has this special fear of the maestro since its 0-4 and always he screws it up somehow when playing with him, lets hope he really put on his best performance, altho being a zerg fanboy, SAVIOR FTW @!!
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
Douchebaggery ahoy !
Seriously, protoss is only easier at really really low levels of play.
Savior yawn raped Free twice in WCG Korea and one of those times was on Python where he embarrassed Free with just hydras basically. Two of the games in this series are on Python. Free has no chance.
Unless Free stops acting like Midas and choking bad, that is his only chance, even if he doesn't choke I think it will just mean 3-2 loss instead of a 3-0 loss.
Oh yeah and when i say yawn raped I'm not kidding, Savior seriously looks like he's falling asleep in those two games against Free, go look.
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
On October 25 2007 11:01 HonestTea wrote: Free Free!
Just not tonight T_T
ET TU, HONESTTEA?
In my heart I will of course be rooting for...
actually, (and this always happens with me) I started to feel more and more for Savior as he lost his brilliance. I kind of what him to be dominant again so I can watch his great play with that familiar mixture of hate and awe.
Then again, Free needs to be freed because he is possibly the greatest Toss in-fighting brawling motherlover of all time.
Savior in the final will of course be more dramatic though.
I think in this case I lean back and hope the games are fun.
But in terms of who will actually win... I believe there should be no doubt. Birds fly and dogs die.
Savior does seem a little off in terms of his mid and late game. More and more, his opponents are denying him the chance to take control early in the game. However, I think he still has the killer instinct to use lings to capitalise on early slip ups by his opponents. If Free is even a little careless early in the game, leaving his zealots out of place or whatever, Savior is going to be all over his base.
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
A sarcastic Romanian!
The world is ending!
hurry! do something about it!
Like ? Romanians have been sarcastic for hundreds of years and the world didn't end.
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
A sarcastic Romanian!
The world is ending!
hurry! do something about it!
Like ? Romanians have been sarcastic for hundreds of years and the world didn't end.
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
A sarcastic Romanian!
The world is ending!
hurry! do something about it!
Like ? Romanians have been sarcastic for hundreds of years and the world didn't end.
Can't tell if this is sarcasm...
On another note, where did this Romanian Sarcasm thing start?
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
A sarcastic Romanian!
The world is ending!
hurry! do something about it!
Like ? Romanians have been sarcastic for hundreds of years and the world didn't end.
My hope is the same as boghats. Actually, no, I think vindication of my point works too.
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
A sarcastic Romanian!
The world is ending!
hurry! do something about it!
Like ? Romanians have been sarcastic for hundreds of years and the world didn't end.
My hope is the same as boghats. Actually, no, I think vindication of my point works too.
On October 25 2007 05:29 Hot_Bid wrote: viceroy, don't be condescending. your opinions are really misinformed and ignorant, and you write them as if they are fact. there are just so many inaccuracies and bad assumptions in your posts, i don't even know where to start.
i'd advise not posting broad, sweeping statements on subjects you have no clue about.
aye aye captain ! I see the wisdom of your words !
A sarcastic Romanian!
The world is ending!
hurry! do something about it!
Like ? Romanians have been sarcastic for hundreds of years and the world didn't end.
My hope is the same as boghats. Actually, no, I think vindication of my point works too.
But you know, I'm pretty worried myself about this. Free's PvZ was always something to be scared of, but then again Savior's ZvP win rate is still at 90%... but then, I dunno it's just so weird with savior lately. When he rapes he rapes and then yawns, but then he goes and get's 0-3'd, or loses to pj.
I think as long as free stays away from the bisu build we'll be ok :D
On October 25 2007 14:59 Live2Win wrote: GOOOOOOO SAVIOR!!!!
But you know, I'm pretty worried myself about this. Free's PvZ was always something to be scared of, but then again Savior's ZvP win rate is still at 90%... but then, I dunno it's just so weird with savior lately. When he rapes he rapes and then yawns, but then he goes and get's 0-3'd, or loses to pj.
I think as long as free stays away from the bisu build we'll be ok :D
On October 25 2007 14:59 Live2Win wrote: GOOOOOOO SAVIOR!!!!
But you know, I'm pretty worried myself about this. Free's PvZ was always something to be scared of, but then again Savior's ZvP win rate is still at 90%... but then, I dunno it's just so weird with savior lately. When he rapes he rapes and then yawns, but then he goes and get's 0-3'd, or loses to pj.
I think as long as free stays away from the bisu build we'll be ok :D
On October 25 2007 14:59 Live2Win wrote: GOOOOOOO SAVIOR!!!!
But you know, I'm pretty worried myself about this. Free's PvZ was always something to be scared of, but then again Savior's ZvP win rate is still at 90%... but then, I dunno it's just so weird with savior lately. When he rapes he rapes and then yawns, but then he goes and get's 0-3'd, or loses to pj.
I think as long as free stays away from the bisu build we'll be ok :D
huh? 90%?
its more like 73-74%
Can't know for sure what Live2Win was talking about, but if you look at non-Bisu ZvPs (in TLPD that is; I don't know how complete it is) in 2006 or 2007 it's 92%. Taking only 2007 it drops to 88%.
That said, although he won, I didn't think Savior looked really dominating vs either Stork or SangHo. I'm expecting Free to put up a fight.
Edit: I didn't actually see his games against Free in the WCG qualifier. How were they?
Terrible, free completely missed savior's base because he assumed that savior was guaranteed to 12hatch and the next game tried to double gate savior but savior had it covered with enough lings so it ended up being pretty nasty for free.
On October 25 2007 15:35 IaniAniaN wrote: Terrible, free completely missed savior's base because he assumed that savior was guaranteed to 12hatch and the next game tried to double gate savior but savior had it covered with enough lings so it ended up being pretty nasty for free.
Yeah you're right, you just mixed up the games, the first one was the double gate that got smashed. That double gate reminds me of Free's last game versus Savior before WCG, which was a couple months ago in the Proleague and it was also on Python. Savior destroyed Free that game too. Basically every game of Free vs. Savior hasn't been close at all.
On October 25 2007 15:45 OneOther wrote: ...But he still won
A similar dice with death against Free may not have gone so well. Although SangHo has played pretty well recently, Free is still better. That said, I'm sure Savior learned from that game against SangHo.
The only reason Sangho vs. Savior was close is that Savior was fucking around in the early game going for an easy win, confident he could outplay Sangho from a disadvantaged position and still win. Which he did. I doubt Savior will treat Free as a free-win the way he did Sangho.
sAviOr is a pretty good player.. A monster which has been proven itself in the past.. victory over victory.. indeed you are his prey.. Over and over again you will fail to beat him.. ravaging all of you..
very few can beat him.. since he is a champion!
Forever he wanted to last.. reigning over everything.. eliminate all mistakes and.. earn perferction..!
On October 25 2007 16:29 bahhh wrote: well gom requires a seperate program and a bit hassle to operate.. while sc2 is easier
yes people are lazy like me =DD
How is it a hassle to operate? its very simple and easy to lower the quality so the stream doesn't freeze. And sc2 actually has to run java which completely slows down your comp while running and GOM does not
The season was autumn, The leaves, they did fall, Yet from top to bottom, Free, he stood tall. His computer so stately, A majestic thing it was, Free took his seat greatly, And looked hardly a thug. A Kingdom was Free, Reaching for the stars, And so did Savior plea, For assistance from afar. But destiny, no, it lived up to its name, Thus did Free's doubters look quite insane.
Added: YOU CAN'T COMPETE, BOGHAT. I HAVE AN ENGLISH DEGREE. ^^
On October 25 2007 17:11 DJEtterStyle wrote: Style without bounds, The pressure unrelenting, A haiku for Free.
this isnt even a haiku
your subconscious thinks free is going down in flames, as much as you would like to think otherwise
You could pose the argument that, depending upon enunciation, style is two syllables, "sty" and "el." Being that syllables are defined based upon pronunciation, there's always been some wiggle room in terms of syllables per line in poetry. Don't be that guy.
Added: Free 3-2, with wins on Python, Loki, and Blue Storm.
The thing is that no matter what I do I cannot make GOM player shows me something live I am reading the guides but I just cannot make it start...:-(((((((((
they dont work for me as well, and I reached a point where I found in GOM the match between free and savior and there is that big green button and when I press it, the intro of MSL shows and then nothing..........
White corn nachos with medium cheddar, black beans, scallions, and chipotle hot sauce? Check. Ice-cold golden ale? Double check. A shot of vodka for each time Free kills a hatchery? TRIPLE CHECK.
On October 25 2007 18:23 M2 wrote: they dont work for me as well, and I reached a point where I found in GOM the match between free and savior and there is that big green button and when I press it, the intro of MSL shows and then nothing..........
Try again? It seems to be working for me.
Is there an orange button after you press the green button? That will make the stream lower quality and easier to stream.
On October 25 2007 18:30 DJEtterStyle wrote: White corn nachos with medium cheddar, black beans, scallions, and chipotle hot sauce? Check. Ice-cold golden ale? Double check. A shot of vodka for each time Free kills a hatchery? TRIPLE CHECK.
you're going to be very drunk by the end of this series.
On October 25 2007 18:23 M2 wrote: they dont work for me as well, and I reached a point where I found in GOM the match between free and savior and there is that big green button and when I press it, the intro of MSL shows and then nothing..........
Try again? It seems to be working for me.
Is there an orange button after you press the green button? That will make the stream lower quality and easier to stream.
Yes I have red and orange button, I am pressing the orange one and it looks like it will work( with a lot of alg though..) however do you know how to make it buffer for a longer beriod?
Savior 12 hatches and starts his gas and spawning pool. Free 1 gates. He has a zealot heading for Savior. Savior's drone flees from the ramp! Zealot charges in! Lings not hatched yet!
Savior dances his drones away, lings hatch and take the zealot down with no damage done.
savior massing hydras at free's ramp! Free has a cannon out that's helping him hold the ramp, but he's not getting out of his base anytime soon! Savior morphing a third hatch at his nat. Lair done... savior charges the ramp! takes out cannon! Only some zealots and a dragoon stand between Savior and victory now!
savior got a lone lurker inside free's base and plants it infront of his gateways than savior attacks natural and free basically can't do anything.. free gg's
Aha... Free busts out of his base with zeals and one goon! Heads straight for savior';s base! Loses a whole bunch of stuff and retreats but he's bought time for his HTs and to start his nat! But without the zeals holding the ramp Savior runs a lurker into his base! lurker sitting on the ramp tearing up everything that comes down it... Savior charges in with his hydras and Free GGs/.
My stream works perfectly, Korea to Korea connection kinda fast.
Nice build form Savior on Python but I think Free was in a superior position after he came down his ramp with zealots. For example if free had 2-3 cannons when savior's units came he would have held and had a much better economy.
savior 3rd hatch at his nat. free's probe finally dies to speed lings. savior hasn't restarted his gas mining, and is going heavy on the lings. has about 14 out? free with 1 zeal and 2 cannons. core warping.
savior with about 3 groups of ling now. it doesn't look good for free. he's getting a 3rd cannon. but its not going to warp in in time. savior goes in with his ling. and destroys all the cannons. free ggs after trying to fight a little with his probes.
Free, what the fuck are you thinking? Stupid 1 gate tech build in game one, didn't expect 3 hatch speedling on a map that NO zerg ever won conventionally?
On October 25 2007 18:41 GTR-2-Go wrote: Just use GOM, any decent connection will be able to handle it (orange stream).
If you live in Korea, yes.
For the rest of the world it's a lot different. Gom always lags.
So there's basically no streams. I am also considering waiting for vods.
GTR is a little aussie bitch i think. but yeah GOM is fine here if you just use low quality stream
I have a really fast internet (college dorm connection, something like 4mb/s download speeds).
That said, I still get quite a lot of lag spikes.
dorm connection doesnt mean u wont lag.. u just need to have better connection with latency.. dorm connection usually hogged up by other people downloading/uploading warez
Free is really being outclassed here... but I must say, there are two things that are dangerous against Savior. Cheese and FE. He never hesitates to send his lings in when he senses weakness, and 9 times out of 10, it works.
i found out clicking the orange-yellow button on the bottome instead of the orange-red on the top reduces the quality and lag. this is regarding gomtv.
On October 25 2007 18:59 Plexa wrote: lol this is what kwanro vs bisu will look like
i thought i would be the only one who would be crazy enough to vote for a kwanro > bisu upset.
I voted partially for the points but also I think its about time Bisu loses hard to a Z.. It may or may not actually happen, but I think people believe Bisu is a little more invincible than he really is right now. : [
It will be like Savior if anything, the air of invincibility will be gone when he finally loses a big series.
On October 25 2007 19:03 bahhh wrote: i found out clicking the orange-yellow button on the bottome instead of the orange-red on the top reduces the quality and lag. this is regarding gomtv.
On October 25 2007 18:59 Plexa wrote: lol this is what kwanro vs bisu will look like
i thought i would be the only one who would be crazy enough to vote for a kwanro > bisu upset.
I voted partially for the points but also I think its about time Bisu loses hard to a Z.. It may or may not actually happen, but I think people believe Bisu is a little more invincible than he really is right now. : [
It will be like Savior if anything, the air of invincibility will be gone when he finally loses a big series.
Your judgement is invalid. Bisu is not invincible, it is KwanRo that is overrated. Game 2 vs Light has clearly shown that his skill level is below what it takes. I might want to see someone worthy to take down Bisu (namely, either Free or Savior), but not KwanRo. He's just another Flash and there was no sane person that was satisfied with Bisu's loss to Flash last season.
On October 25 2007 18:59 Plexa wrote: lol this is what kwanro vs bisu will look like
i thought i would be the only one who would be crazy enough to vote for a kwanro > bisu upset.
I voted partially for the points but also I think its about time Bisu loses hard to a Z.. It may or may not actually happen, but I think people believe Bisu is a little more invincible than he really is right now. : [
It will be like Savior if anything, the air of invincibility will be gone when he finally loses a big series.
Your judgement is invalid. Bisu is not invincible, it is KwanRo that is overrated. Game 2 vs Light has clearly shown that his skill level is below what it takes. I might want to see someone worthy to take down Bisu (namely, either Free or Savior), but not KwanRo. He's just another Flash and there was no sane person that was satisfied with Bisu's loss to Flash last season.
His game against sea told a different story though, just late swarming is all...
however, the build savior used on python is very similar to the build kwanro used against soo - dont dismiss him due to a sloppy performance in a won game
How sweet would it be if all 4 semifinalists are from CJ? Well, maybe not that sweet because I don't really like when teammates have to face each other in leagues.
i can't believe people are saying kwanro has a legit chance, he's had TWO games zvp, 1-1 (L Kal, W Soo), with one of them several months ago.
how can you possibly say he's going to beat the best pvz? he a) looked horrible game 2 vs light and b) is unproven in anything but zvt.
people totally overrate "being aggressive" as some sort of miracle solution to bisu because of one bad july game and one bad oversky game. every P will die to 3 hatch lings at some point, it's inevitable. bo5? no way.
On October 25 2007 18:59 Plexa wrote: lol this is what kwanro vs bisu will look like
i thought i would be the only one who would be crazy enough to vote for a kwanro > bisu upset.
I voted partially for the points but also I think its about time Bisu loses hard to a Z.. It may or may not actually happen, but I think people believe Bisu is a little more invincible than he really is right now. : [
It will be like Savior if anything, the air of invincibility will be gone when he finally loses a big series.
Your judgement is invalid. Bisu is not invincible, it is KwanRo that is overrated. Game 2 vs Light has clearly shown that his skill level is below what it takes. I might want to see someone worthy to take down Bisu (namely, either Free or Savior), but not KwanRo. He's just another Flash and there was no sane person that was satisfied with Bisu's loss to Flash last season.
Really? So being a Flash fan automatically makes you insane? Interesting. I wonder if thats in the clinical textbooks.
On October 25 2007 18:59 Plexa wrote: lol this is what kwanro vs bisu will look like
i thought i would be the only one who would be crazy enough to vote for a kwanro > bisu upset.
I voted partially for the points but also I think its about time Bisu loses hard to a Z.. It may or may not actually happen, but I think people believe Bisu is a little more invincible than he really is right now. : [
It will be like Savior if anything, the air of invincibility will be gone when he finally loses a big series.
Your judgement is invalid. Bisu is not invincible, it is KwanRo that is overrated. Game 2 vs Light has clearly shown that his skill level is below what it takes. I might want to see someone worthy to take down Bisu (namely, either Free or Savior), but not KwanRo. He's just another Flash and there was no sane person that was satisfied with Bisu's loss to Flash last season.
Really? So being a Flash fan automatically makes you insane? Interesting. I wonder if thats in the clinical textbooks.
On October 25 2007 19:11 Hot_Bid wrote: bisu is going to rape the shit out of kwanro
i can't believe people are saying kwanro has a legit chance, he's had TWO games zvp, 1-1 (L Kal, W Soo), with one of them several months ago.
how can you possibly say he's going to beat the best pvz? he a) looked horrible game 2 vs light and b) is unproven in anything but zvt.
people totally overrate "being aggressive" as some sort of miracle solution to bisu because of one bad july game and one bad oversky game. every P will die to 3 hatch lings at some point, it's inevitable. bo5? no way.
I agree, but I don't think his record should be used in an argument.
On October 25 2007 18:59 Plexa wrote: lol this is what kwanro vs bisu will look like
i thought i would be the only one who would be crazy enough to vote for a kwanro > bisu upset.
I voted partially for the points but also I think its about time Bisu loses hard to a Z.. It may or may not actually happen, but I think people believe Bisu is a little more invincible than he really is right now. : [
It will be like Savior if anything, the air of invincibility will be gone when he finally loses a big series.
Your judgement is invalid. Bisu is not invincible, it is KwanRo that is overrated. Game 2 vs Light has clearly shown that his skill level is below what it takes. I might want to see someone worthy to take down Bisu (namely, either Free or Savior), but not KwanRo. He's just another Flash and there was no sane person that was satisfied with Bisu's loss to Flash last season.
Really? So being a Flash fan automatically makes you insane? Interesting. I wonder if thats in the clinical textbooks.
keyword: SATISFIED
And a FLASH FAN would be SATISIFIED with a FLASH WIN.
On October 25 2007 18:59 Plexa wrote: lol this is what kwanro vs bisu will look like
i thought i would be the only one who would be crazy enough to vote for a kwanro > bisu upset.
I voted partially for the points but also I think its about time Bisu loses hard to a Z.. It may or may not actually happen, but I think people believe Bisu is a little more invincible than he really is right now. : [
It will be like Savior if anything, the air of invincibility will be gone when he finally loses a big series.
Your judgement is invalid. Bisu is not invincible, it is KwanRo that is overrated. Game 2 vs Light has clearly shown that his skill level is below what it takes. I might want to see someone worthy to take down Bisu (namely, either Free or Savior), but not KwanRo. He's just another Flash and there was no sane person that was satisfied with Bisu's loss to Flash last season.
Really? So being a Flash fan automatically makes you insane? Interesting. I wonder if thats in the clinical textbooks.
Being a Flash fan, but taking down a strong player with two all-in builds in a row with a help of luck and maps only to die hopelessely in the next round is not something that is appreciated. Respect the audience, that's it.
free with zealot heading toward's savior's base. core just warped in for free. savior with about 5 ling, which free sees with his scout probe, so he retreats his zealot. stargate warping now for free. lair out for savior
free with corsair out, but its unlikely to get any overlords cause savior's spire is out, as well as his fourth hatch. he's getting gas at his back nat now (for 3 gas). savior abuses free's corsair with scourges, and he has mutas out. but free has good defense with 2 corsairs and cannons in his mineral line.
savior with a 5th hatch in his main now. hydra den out. and about 8 mutas.free with 4 corsairs and robotics facility out. savior dropping a 6th hatch in his main now.
savior getting some sunkens at his back nat, and has burrow researched. his lings are burrowed at strategic points all over map so that he'll be able to catch corsair/shuttle movement. free with about 8 corsairs now. his back nat just warped in and he's getting some gateways in his main. templar archives out as well for free. savior expoing to 12
Two dts attacking an expo, splits the dts, Savior chases one pretty far away, and then attacks the expo with the other, the overlord comes back first, Free kills it with his sairs.
triple evo for savior. free with 2 dt at savior's expo attempt at 12. taking it down to red health before overlords come. and he splits them up, getting both away. savior chases 1 of them with his whole army, and free, in a brilliant move, returns with the other dt and destroys the expo, his corsairs ambushing the lone overlord. free with a zeal/templar army now and upping his gate count to 8. not looking so good for savior.
free now moving out with a pretty huge goon zeal templar army. savior attempting a counter at free's nat. it might deal some good damage. but free returns and saves his expo, losing only a minimal number of units. savior has bought time for his lurkers though. but he's quite far behind now. free has gotten his expo at 9. its going to be 4 base toss vs 3.5 base zerg.
free storm drops savior's nat and gets some kills. not looking good for savior at all. free has a huge army running around, and savior looks like he only has 2 group of ling hydra. free's expoes are also all very well defended with mass cannon. savior going to rely on static defense to stay in the game
free looks like he might be maxed. savior trying a drop now on free's back nat. its got 6 cannons defending. in the mean time free attacks savior's main and mass storm destroys a lot of lings. looks over for savior
savior's drop destroys the cannons but he can't take out the nexus. free takes out savior's nat, and tries to move up with his army, but savior has some sunkens and lurkers there, so free retreats. getting arbiter tribunal now. savior has top left, but it has few drone.
free taking the 6 expo now. his army is mainly goon with some templar/archons and zealots thrown in. savior trying to retake his nat with 6 lurkers for defense. his main and back nat are running out.
savior getting defiler's mound now. free's 6 is up and he's spamming mass cannons at it. savior is going to try a drop at his 6 base, but its unlikely to be successful.
free attacking savior's nat now with his huge army. its probably going to go down. savior's drop at 6 has taken out all the cannons, but free retreated his army after destroying savior's nat, and he saved the nexus. arbiter out for free now.
I seriously don't see what you can do as zerg on this map. Toss starts off with free 3 bases and from there it's a problem T_T. Lategame seems instant loss.
On October 25 2007 19:40 Nyovne wrote: I seriously don't see what you can do as zerg on this map. Toss starts off with free 3 bases and from there it's a problem T_T. Lategame seems instant loss.
There is always potential to end the game early but overall yeah its pretty tough I would say. If Z can control half the map with all tech its possible though of course.
free scouts savior's 3rd hatch at his 2nd nat. his first zealot is moving out towards savior now. savior with ling out, so the zealot is unlike to deal damage.
free with citadel warping in and stargate out. savior with lair out, and dropping his 4th hatch at the 12 nat. spire coming for savior at his nat. scouted by free with his probe.
wtf savior taking mass expoes. 5th hatch at the 2nd nat of 6. free's corsair is out and is getting some kills at savior's nat. free with archives out, getting some cannons at his mineral lines. free with 3 gates now.
savior engages the archon with his mutas. losing 3 mutas but taking out the archon, forcing the zealots to retreat. speed upgrade completed. now a number of zealots + 1 archon and 1 corsair moving to savior's 6 2nd nat. takes out 2 sunkens there. but savior kills the archon with mass muta, and his scourges the corsair. the zealots are forced to run. hatch still stands.
Free is fucked. Savior has a shitload of mutas shitting all over Free's troops and denying him his expo. He's defending his own expos with mutas and sunkens.
savior is going mass mass muta. probably about 2 groups of them out now. free with archon zealot. savior attacks free's 2nd nat at 12. and forces a cancel. but free has sent mass zealot to the 6 2nd nat and destroys the hatchery. about 3 group of mutas now for savior.
savior 2 evo and getting queen's nest. he flies into free's main which is defended by 4 cannons. free comes in with corsairs, but the mutas overwhelm them. not looking good for free. he tries to counter with zealots at savior's 12 nat, but mass sunken forces him to retreat.
hive coming for savior now. and he just took out the nexus at free's 2nd nat (at 12) with a suicide attack with his mass muta. (didn't destroy cannons, just targeted the nexus)
now savior is in free's main, completely ignoring the cannons, and targetting the corsairs. they go down, and the cannons soon follow. free is going to lose his main nexus.
savior makes a slight micro mistake and archons land 2 hits on savior's bunched up mutas. free with mass zealot and about 5 archon now. but savior has mass sunken EVERYWHERE.
free attacks savior's nat and the sunkens all go down. the greater spire is down as well. but savior has guardians out and free is not going to be able to do anything vs that air army with just zealots. he takes out savior's nat hatch though.
Free tears apart Savior's nat and takes down the greater spire, but not before the guardians hatch! Free breaks through to Savior's main, but mutas are just destroying his zealots.
savior with about 12 guardians moving toward the 2nd nat (at 12) for free, takes out all the cannons. muta support means corsairs can't do anything. and the expo goes down. free going to try some despetate zealot/archon at savior's main. it fails miserably. and he's going to gg soon
savior even plays safe, he retreated his guardians to his main to defend the zealots, instead of just attacking free's nat. savior with 5 ultras out now. free ggs.
Imitating Bisus style isn't that easy it seems. We're well on our way to an excellent final.
Savior should always go supergreedy zerg against that fe protoss style. Mutas/sunk seem like a good idea against the tech heavy low unit count harass that the "Bisu" style employs against mass expansions. Besides- I love Sauron style, it's the way Zerg is meant to be played.
I don't think free played that well in that last game. Not enough anti-air, cuz once savior's mutas targeted his corsairs the rest of his force was screwed. Plus, he was behind like 3 expos the entire game
Savior no doubt played well. Free got a little careless with his sairs, and should've, methinks, maintained a higher corsair count. However, PvZ on Zodiac in general frightens me, zerg can get many free expansions very fast.
On October 25 2007 20:33 puLs.ReADy wrote: Guys lets not forget that Free best mu is pvz... He has nice record vs July and Gorush but Savior is just too much
i guess only protoss that can beat savior in BO's is Bisu. and bisu is the only one that has right?? oh yeah.. nvm. he also lost to that chinese guy. forgot his name
On October 25 2007 21:01 SickTighT wrote: lol @ PJ's 2-1 vs savior then savior rolls over stork and 3-1's free
makes me question why PJ isn't playing for a pro team (i know he WAS in SKT1, but why isn't he still there)
Players have good days and bad days, add Savior underestimating PJ and PJ playing really well for 3 games, add unpracticed maps, etc. Not taking any credit from PJ, was a great and deserved win.
But I don't think the WCG series showed any latent potential in PJ to become a superstar, if he had an ability to contribute in Korea, it would have been discovered at SKT1.
Nice. I think I'll watch it again, because GOM player was incredibly laggy and I missed many scenes of action. As usual with GOM player... even with everything set to low quality.
On October 25 2007 22:17 Hot_Bid wrote: I updated the OP. Everyone, if you're not going to watch live and update the original post with results, do not create the thread.
Thank you very much HB. Yeah theres a reason I don't make these threads, because on the east coast the games start at like 3 in the morning
The light of day makes my pain all the worse, Knowledge relentless, belongs in a hearse. Free? Freely? Freedom? A freedom from what? There's no doubt that Savior put it in your butt.
bisu is not savior. Bisu was a reaction to saviors dominance. Yes, the reaction was strong and emphatic....but now that savior knows whats to expect... uh' bisu will be raped and savior may even crack a smile
On October 26 2007 03:18 anch wrote: watching this is so rofl, Free sucks compare to Bisu, rA, and Stork. Last game was great + Show Spoiler +
where savior just toys around with mutas. Free would do better if he get storms instead of archons.
Wrong. It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
Well to me game 4 was like game 3 with the necessary adjustments. In game 3 Savior stayed at 3 bases very long, waiting for the push that only came after Free had 3 bases of his own. This multi-teching from 2 bases that this protoss style includes does very little pressure before that (in the hands of Free at least). While Bisu makes up for that with tough Corsair/Dt (or pure Corsair speed Zeals) harass, I already felt in game 3 that you could take 1 or 2 extra expansions against Free in that time.
On October 26 2007 02:38 AcquiescE wrote: bisu is not savior. Bisu was a reaction to saviors dominance. Yes, the reaction was strong and emphatic....but now that savior knows whats to expect... uh' bisu will be raped and savior may even crack a smile
Bisu's win rate vs savior is close to 90% and it'd be ridiculous to expect him to maintain that, but it's even harder to imagine that savior could tip it to his side anytime soon. i think bisu will have a 70%+ chance of winning a bo5 against savior if he has to face him in this MSL. and bisu will always maintain a winning record against savior, similar to iloveoov vs nada and nal_ra vs boxer.
anyway, bisu is well on his way to his own dominance. if he wins this MSL and wins an OSL, along with some key victories over S-class terrans, he'll have proven himself in every way possible. then it'll just be a matter of how long he can keep it up
I agree with Nony. Bisu's PvZ is a completely different story. Both in game 1 and 2 Free made mistakes that Bisu would not. In game 1 Free's did well to protect his ramp from savior's hydralisk rush, but what was his corsair doing? It was at 9 oclock, with 0 kills. Bisu would have micro'd that sair to hunt down ovies while protecting his ramp from the pressure. That would put a dent in Savior's economy, and since he was 2 hatch it would have been worst.
In game 2 Free stopped scouting after the first probe died. Bisu never stops scouting. In GomTV1 Finals Bisu was always aware of savior's moves.
I'm not sayin Savior hasn't evolved. Instead of trying to going head to head and using the same openings he's mixed it up every game. All 4 games he's used a different unit mix, a different theme. Hydra rush, 3 hatch zerglings rush, dbl expo, and mass expo to mass muta style, one we haven't seen in a while.
Unfortunately these are strategies that have a limit. They don't work all the time, and now that Savior's used it on Free he'll have to come up with something different if he wants to take down Bisu.
[B]On October 26 2007 03:51 WhatisProtoss wrote:It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
It was at least kind of strange that Free didn't cast a single storm in the last game. With that many mutalisks from Savior, not to mention the guardians it could've been better than the scattered archons that died as easily as the few corsairs. Maybe just Savior is regaining form and Free's pvz sucks hard (the second statement is more probable) ...
[B]On October 26 2007 03:51 WhatisProtoss wrote:It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
It was at least kind of strange that Free didn't cast a single storm in the last game. With that many mutalisks from Savior, not to mention the guardians it could've been better than the scattered archons that died as easily as the few corsairs. Maybe just Savior is regaining form and Free's pvz sucks hard (the second statement is more probable) ...
I don't think Savior is out of his slump. Free's pvz is just sloppy. I really like Free's agressive play style in other mu's though. His PvP is just as good as the current Stork's.
I thought it was BO victories. Gateway first builds dont work vs savior. Why do people do it? Also if you are clearly outclassed (which about 95% of the protoss players are), why dont you do daring BOs?
[B]On October 26 2007 05:58 EpiK wrote: I don't think Savior is out of his slump. Free's pvz is just sloppy. I really like Free's agressive play style in other mu's though. His PvP is just as good as the current Stork's.
Well Savior still is very strong player and will probably make it to the final; pure logic says Bisu will smash everyone in the way to third consecutive MSL Neither any of the two terrans can stop Savior or ra or xellos can stop bisu but still it's a game and everything happens.
P.S. I would gladly watch Kwanro vs Savior at the final, haven't seen much of Savior's zvz lately ...
Uh... how in the world can you claim Free's PvP is better than Stork's? Stork's PvP is top notch, and against anyone not named Bisu he'll probably win (and even against Bisu, it's about 50/50). He certainly spanked Free in WCG.
Furthermore, I could argue Stork's weakness against Zerg is somewhat forgivable (especially compared to Free's inconsistency against terrans) given that most zergs not named Savior (and July... but July has been hit or miss lately) suck at the matchup. If Free can't beat Savior either, he's not in much better shape than Stork is.
[B]On October 26 2007 03:51 WhatisProtoss wrote:It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
It was at least kind of strange that Free didn't cast a single storm in the last game. With that many mutalisks from Savior, not to mention the guardians it could've been better than the scattered archons that died as easily as the few corsairs. Maybe just Savior is regaining form and Free's pvz sucks hard (the second statement is more probable) ...
I don't think Savior is out of his slump. Free's pvz is just sloppy. I really like Free's agressive play style in other mu's though. His PvP is just as good as the current Stork's.
Free has extremely good pvz. Excluding savior, he is 23-10. Bisu is 22-12 in comparison.
Doesnt matter, savior will win both starleagues regardless.
[B]On October 26 2007 03:51 WhatisProtoss wrote:It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
It was at least kind of strange that Free didn't cast a single storm in the last game. With that many mutalisks from Savior, not to mention the guardians it could've been better than the scattered archons that died as easily as the few corsairs. Maybe just Savior is regaining form and Free's pvz sucks hard (the second statement is more probable) ...
I don't think Savior is out of his slump. Free's pvz is just sloppy. I really like Free's agressive play style in other mu's though. His PvP is just as good as the current Stork's.
Free has extremely good pvz. Excluding savior, he is 23-10. Bisu is 22-12 in comparison.
Doesnt matter, savior will win both starleagues regardless.
Then you include Savior and Free looks slightly better than average and Bisu looks godlike. TLPD doesn't include a ton of games Bisu has played against Savior (Race Wars Super Fight, WWI off the top of my head).
[B]On October 26 2007 03:51 WhatisProtoss wrote:It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
It was at least kind of strange that Free didn't cast a single storm in the last game. With that many mutalisks from Savior, not to mention the guardians it could've been better than the scattered archons that died as easily as the few corsairs. Maybe just Savior is regaining form and Free's pvz sucks hard (the second statement is more probable) ...
I don't think Savior is out of his slump. Free's pvz is just sloppy. I really like Free's agressive play style in other mu's though. His PvP is just as good as the current Stork's.
Free has extremely good pvz. Excluding savior, he is 23-10. Bisu is 22-12 in comparison.
Doesnt matter, savior will win both starleagues regardless.
why would you exclude savior? he's the most important opponent. free is a top A-class PvZ player and it takes an S-Class zerg like savior to show his weaknesses in PvZ. sloppy is a good description
the only comparison to make between Bisu and Free is that they get similarly good results against A-class and worse opponents, but Bisu continues with those results against S-Class whereas Free does not.
I apologize about creating this thread and not updating the op, I could have sworn I would be able to, but something came up. Next time, I'll be 100% sure.
[B]On October 26 2007 03:51 WhatisProtoss wrote:It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
It was at least kind of strange that Free didn't cast a single storm in the last game. With that many mutalisks from Savior, not to mention the guardians it could've been better than the scattered archons that died as easily as the few corsairs. Maybe just Savior is regaining form and Free's pvz sucks hard (the second statement is more probable) ...
I don't think Savior is out of his slump. Free's pvz is just sloppy. I really like Free's agressive play style in other mu's though. His PvP is just as good as the current Stork's.
Free has extremely good pvz. Excluding savior, he is 23-10. Bisu is 22-12 in comparison.
Doesnt matter, savior will win both starleagues regardless.
why would you exclude savior? he's the most important opponent. free is a top A-class PvZ player and it takes an S-Class zerg like savior to show his weaknesses in PvZ. sloppy is a good description
the only comparison to make between Bisu and Free is that they get similarly good results against A-class and worse opponents, but Bisu continues with those results against S-Class whereas Free does not.
Well it could also just be that Bisu's pvz style works better vs savior than Free's does...
On October 26 2007 03:18 anch wrote: watching this is so rofl, Free sucks compare to Bisu, rA, and Stork. Last game was great + Show Spoiler +
where savior just toys around with mutas. Free would do better if he get storms instead of archons.
Wrong. It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
If you watched game 4, you'd know that it was way better for Free to get storm than archons. When there's like 30 mutas, they can easily kill mineral line cannons and 1 or 2 archons with proper spreading. Your archons get run around the map too much, because you have to keep 3+ archons together or they will die too fast separately to so many mutas. You can protect your expos much better with one or two templars with cannons.
On October 26 2007 04:37 Monsen wrote: Well to me game 4 was like game 3 with the necessary adjustments. In game 3 Savior stayed at 3 bases very long, waiting for the push that only came after Free had 3 bases of his own. This multi-teching from 2 bases that this protoss style includes does very little pressure before that (in the hands of Free at least). While Bisu makes up for that with tough Corsair/Dt (or pure Corsair speed Zeals) harass, I already felt in game 3 that you could take 1 or 2 extra expansions against Free in that time.
Game 4 and game 3 are highly different, and it wasn't just a decision by Savior to take more bases. In game 3 he thought Free was going Reaver-Sair but free fooled him. Loki allows for an easily defended 3rd gas by Protoss and nice, tight clumped areas to attack. It's just a good PvZ map. Zodiac, on the other hand, has wide open spaces and it's much much easier to mass expo there.
Well, at least free took a game right? I think that this victory proves how good Bisu is in the end though, because even after it seemed like Savior was decoded, he beat free, he beat stork (though stork could probably have done more in a longer series), he's gone through every single Protoss that could possibly stop him, except for Bisu. Unfortunately for Savior, I doubt he'll be able to beat Bisu. The closest he came, in a game that I watched, was during the race wars. Savior went trip hatch hydra, didn't over extend, anticipated Bisu's move into DT's and still lost because it seemed like Bisu was a fraction of a step ahead of him, always. What I'm trying to imply is savior's slump isn't as deep as everyone thinks, Bisu's just good at this game.
I think it's worth noting that even in spite of Bisu's supposed dominance, it seems like there's a fair amount of mixed feelings about how a Savior-Bisu bo3 would work out. Before Bisu, anyone was the clear underdog vs. Savior.
[B]On October 26 2007 03:51 WhatisProtoss wrote:It's better to get archons against mutalisks instead of storm. Free just never could get a sizable group of corsairs since he kept losing them one at a time.
It was at least kind of strange that Free didn't cast a single storm in the last game. With that many mutalisks from Savior, not to mention the guardians it could've been better than the scattered archons that died as easily as the few corsairs. Maybe just Savior is regaining form and Free's pvz sucks hard (the second statement is more probable) ...
I don't think Savior is out of his slump. Free's pvz is just sloppy. I really like Free's agressive play style in other mu's though. His PvP is just as good as the current Stork's.
Free has extremely good pvz. Excluding savior, he is 23-10. Bisu is 22-12 in comparison.
Doesnt matter, savior will win both starleagues regardless.
why would you exclude savior? he's the most important opponent. free is a top A-class PvZ player and it takes an S-Class zerg like savior to show his weaknesses in PvZ. sloppy is a good description
the only comparison to make between Bisu and Free is that they get similarly good results against A-class and worse opponents, but Bisu continues with those results against S-Class whereas Free does not.
Well it could also just be that Bisu's pvz style works better vs savior than Free's does...
Bisu is the only Protoss capable of doing his style.
Honestly, I don't think Bisu can be "stylistically" countered. If he's going to be beaten, he'll be beaten by someone who simply plays better or is better, not someone with simply a different style. Bisu is not a product of his build, he's just really, really good. The reason some Zergs can beat him and some can't isn't because of style--Bisu is just better. He creates situations where his superior multitask slowly wears them down. A few seconds here, a few there, and they steadily lose ground (see the most recent OSL game against GGPlay).
A lot of people here seem to think July or some aggressive Zerg can "solve" Bisu, but I really doubt it, not in a Bo5. Bisu will adjust defense according to what his probes see, it's not simply a matter of the Zerg's decision to attack.
Sounds like what people said about Savior pre-Bisu, though, right? Anything can happen; even if someone looks unbeatable in a matchup, something can always change that.
On October 26 2007 08:40 bine wrote: Sounds like what people said about Savior pre-Bisu, though, right? Anything can happen; even if someone looks unbeatable in a matchup, something can always change that.
And what people said about Savior then was correct. Savior wasn't stylistically countered. He was outplayed. Its not like Bisu's build sucks ass if you anticipate it. This is proven by Savior not able to beat him even when switching styles in subsequent matches.
The same applies for Bisu. There is no easy way to beat a player of his caliber, else everyone would be doing it. To beat him in a Bo5 series, you have to play better than him. There is no other way.
I didn't mean to say that I thought Savior was going to win. I don't think he's the zerg to beat Bisu, obviously. I guess I just mean that there's this sense that his style is impenetrable just like Savior's was. I always hear people saying that Bisu's amazing because he multitasks so well, that he scouts so well, controls the game flow, etc., all things that people said about Savior.
Personally, I don't think the reason Bisu owns Savior so much is that he's a better multitasker or anything like that. I think he won that first series because he found a weakness in Savior's play (stylistic or otherwise) and exploited it (in Chess you call it out-preparing your opponent), and the ensuing shock and psychological shit has enabled him to keep an edge on Savior. I think Bisu is the best PvZ, I think he's super good blah blah, but I don't think he's like another level above Savior in terms of skill in general.
I'm so sick of Bisu, if sAviOr beats Bisu in this MSL final my StarCraft fandom will be complete.
[edit]Because I don't want to create any harsh arguments I just want to say that one of the reasons I like Savior over Bisu is because personally I just like to watch Zergs more than Protoss. Plus when I first started getting into the proscene sAviOr was the dominant one. So add my love for zerg and sAviOr being the best and it becomes obvious why I hope he smashes Bisu in the finals.
On October 26 2007 11:13 boghat wrote: I'm so sick of Bisu, if sAviOr beats Bisu in this MSL final my StarCraft fandom will be complete.
[edit]Because I don't want to create any harsh arguments I just want to say that one of the reasons I like Savior over Bisu is because personally I just like to watch Zergs more than Protoss. Plus when I first started getting into the proscene sAviOr was the dominant one. So add my love for zerg and sAviOr being the best and it becomes obvious why I hope he smashes Bisu in the finals.
On October 26 2007 11:13 boghat wrote: I'm so sick of Bisu, if sAviOr beats Bisu in this MSL final my StarCraft fandom will be complete.
[edit]Because I don't want to create any harsh arguments I just want to say that one of the reasons I like Savior over Bisu is because personally I just like to watch Zergs more than Protoss. Plus when I first started getting into the proscene sAviOr was the dominant one. So add my love for zerg and sAviOr being the best and it becomes obvious why I hope he smashes Bisu in the finals.
What an excellent reason to hate on Bisu!
I don't hate him, I just like Savior more that's all. And when I say I'm sick of him I just mean I wish Savior was #1 again. I like Bisu as a Protoss though, I have nothing against him, he's obviously unbelievably good.
On October 26 2007 11:13 boghat wrote: I'm so sick of Bisu, if sAviOr beats Bisu in this MSL final my StarCraft fandom will be complete.
[edit]Because I don't want to create any harsh arguments I just want to say that one of the reasons I like Savior over Bisu is because personally I just like to watch Zergs more than Protoss. Plus when I first started getting into the proscene sAviOr was the dominant one. So add my love for zerg and sAviOr being the best and it becomes obvious why I hope he smashes Bisu in the finals.
It doesn't make much difference, if you ask me I think if he can't beat Savior then you're un-likely to win the MSL in the end, because either he'll show up or another S-Class player that beat him will, and you'll end up with the same thing.
On October 26 2007 13:40 teamsolid wrote: Poor Free... he deserves to make it to Ro4 at least once, unlike Mind/Mania. Oh well, good luck to him next season.
Why doesnt Mind/Mania deserve to make it to the Ro4? Oh course they deserve it. They won their games.
I think Bisu still has better chances vs savior in the finals. Free isn't THAT good. Loki is actually a very good P>Z map imo. And in game 4 he just ran into savior's arms who had the perfect gameplan vs him. But Bisu i could imagine would have just gone 2 Stargate corsairs and clever DT/Drop usage and the game would have looked different. After all I'm sure noone can prevent these two from meeting in the finals and if Loki will be played twice I'm betting on Bisu.
When I first watched the Vod's I didn't know who was going to win because I had not read this thread yet, but as soon as I opened the first set and saw how tired and disheveled Savior looked compared to his usual demeanor I KNEW he was going to be playing excellent starcraft. Honestly I think Savior has been awakened from his slump. If you watch some of his older games, i.e- past few months, you can see he was making mistakes that would honestly be too long for me to describe but things such as rushing 10 zerglings to kill one probe whilst there was a cognizant need to utilize the lings somewhere else and that time delay would hurt his position in the game. Today I felt that his decisions were holistically better, call it micro/macro decisions or whatever, I felt a tangible increase in his play from his past and contemporary form.
On October 26 2007 17:19 ahole-surprise wrote: Wouldn't Savior just thumbs down Loki?
I thought thumbs down only meant that they wouldn't play that map twice?
Yes, that's right. But he wasn't implying anything different, just responding to the post before him:
On October 26 2007 17:16 Desade wrote: After all I'm sure noone can prevent these two from meeting in the finals and if Loki will be played twice I'm betting on Bisu.
But interestingly, both Bisu and Savior thumbed down Zodiac for their Ro8 matches. It'd be funny if they both expect the other to thumb down Zodiac again, so they thumb down their 2nd worst, and then Zodiac gets picked for the 1st and 5th.
PS: I don't know if it's been mentioned, but Free thumbed down Loki II. I would've expected him to thumb down Python before Loki II for sure.
Ah, finally got around to watching these games and I'd just like to add that when comparing Free's PvZ to Bisu's, it's really amazing how vastly different their skill levels are, even though many people rank Free was the no.2 PvZ player. Honestly, 5Base Zerg, 6 hatching, etc that crap will just dash itself to pieces on Bisu.
On October 27 2007 06:48 Jyvblamo wrote: Ah, finally got around to watching these games and I'd just like to add that when comparing Free's PvZ to Bisu's, it's really amazing how vastly different their skill levels are, even though many people rank Free was the no.2 PvZ player. Honestly, 5Base Zerg, 6 hatching, etc that crap will just dash itself to pieces on Bisu.
The map was good for that strat.... I don't think Bisu would have had it easy.
I had hope for Free. No other Protoss has been able to just downright own the crap out of sAviOr. StOrk, Free, and Nal_Ra should have saint[z-zone] as their practice partner too :/
On October 29 2007 07:53 Scorpion wrote: I had hope for Free. No other Protoss has been able to just downright own the crap out of sAviOr. StOrk, Free, and Nal_Ra should have saint[z-zone] as their practice partner too :/