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On November 08 2007 03:41 eXigent. wrote:
intrigue, I dont mean this with disrespect, but where are you pulling these facts from?. What you are stating is simply your opinion only, not to mention an opinion of someone who has never gamed with A+ level gamers, let alone any progamers.
When stating that random korean a+'s (who's aka's you dont know) have nothing on pros, it would be rather nice for you to back it up with some legitimate evidence. Even light[alive] has lost to lesser skilled players on this ladder, including a loss to MyM.Mania.
So, seeing his loss to MyM.Mania, proves sajers point much better than yours. The point being, that even progamers can be beat, when playing against someone A+ level (with 70%win+).
In the end, neither of us can be for certain, that your outcome is correct, until every progamer plays bo7 series with every A+ iccup gamer. We all know this is impossible, so we are left simply to our own opinions. NOT FACTS!
using mym.mania vs light is a bad example, because he went like 1-10 vs him -.-
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Actually its not a bad example, and going 1-10 proves my point. So im not sure exactly what you mean by that. It proves that a player like mym.mania can take games off of a top30kespa progamer, even if its 1 game out of 10. Thats 10 out of a hundred. So theoretically, light would be 100-10. There are many semi-pros/amatures on iccup with those stats, so like I said, anyone can be beaten, and to blindly state, without evidence as support, that a korean progamer cannot even be touched on iccup, is just untruthful.
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On November 08 2007 04:46 eXigent. wrote:
Actually its not a bad example, and going 1-10 proves my point. So im not sure exactly what you mean by that. It proves that a player like mym.mania can take games off of a top30kespa progamer, even if its 1 game out of 10. Thats 10 out of a hundred. So theoretically, light would be 100-10. There are many semi-pros/amatures on iccup with those stats, so like I said, anyone can be beaten, and to blindly state, without evidence as support, that a korean progamer cannot even be touched on iccup, is just untruthful.
light is 87-4, 96% wins... i'm not sure where you're going with this? intrigue didn't say progamers couldn't be beaten, he was just saying the level is completely different. it is.
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On November 08 2007 04:46 eXigent. wrote:
Actually its not a bad example, and going 1-10 proves my point. So im not sure exactly what you mean by that. It proves that a player like mym.mania can take games off of a top30kespa progamer, even if its 1 game out of 10. Thats 10 out of a hundred. So theoretically, light would be 100-10. There are many semi-pros/amatures on iccup with those stats, so like I said, anyone can be beaten, and to blindly state, without evidence as support, that a korean progamer cannot even be touched on iccup, is just untruthful.
Just stop ok? There is ONLY ONE A+ PLAYER with stats that are as good as something like 100-10(above 90%), and thats Light. Intrigue is right. Any top tier progamer is going to have a better than 90% based on the information we have. Is it a fact? Of course not. And your little bitch fest about it not being so in your first post was rediculous. Of course it isn't a fact, it's impossible to get the data necessary to have discussions like this with only factual information. However, his opinion was logical and made sense while yours does not. You lose; give it up.
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Actually, he pretty much implied that korean pro's are far far beyond any korean A+ level gamers. Which is flawed logic, and I called him on it. Light has 4 losses to korean amature/semi-pro gamers, so let me quickly state where I am going with this. 4 losses show's he can lose to much lesser skilled players, which puts intrigues comment on trial, until he can provide evidence to back it up. Im just tired of always hearing that korean progamers are simply untouchable blah blah, without providing any sort of evidence to back the claim. I brought evidence to my post, by showing that light has lost 4 games to non-professional gamers.
The level is different yes, in that a korean progamer has a place to play all day, but many of those korean A+ gamers practice JUST as much, so the level is not THAT much different. Progamers come from the korean population, so once again these A+ koreans at home, are pretty close to the level of korean pro, because all korean pro's start off that way. Its logic man.
Lastly, I wouldnt mind having this debate with intrigue himself, and although I do appreciate your input regarding this matter, I would rather not have you speak for someone else, and just let him respond to me on his own. Thanks.
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On November 08 2007 05:26 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2007 04:46 eXigent. wrote:
Actually its not a bad example, and going 1-10 proves my point. So im not sure exactly what you mean by that. It proves that a player like mym.mania can take games off of a top30kespa progamer, even if its 1 game out of 10. Thats 10 out of a hundred. So theoretically, light would be 100-10. There are many semi-pros/amatures on iccup with those stats, so like I said, anyone can be beaten, and to blindly state, without evidence as support, that a korean progamer cannot even be touched on iccup, is just untruthful. Just stop ok? There is ONLY ONE A+ PLAYER with stats that are as good as something like 100-10(above 90%), and thats Light. Intrigue is right. Any top tier progamer is going to have a better than 90% based on the information we have. Is it a fact? Of course not. And your little bitch fest about it not being so in your first post was rediculous. Of course it isn't a fact, it's impossible to get the data necessary to have discussions like this with only factual information. However, his opinion was logical and made sense while yours does not. You lose; give it up.
Once again, rather than having intrigue respond with a proper debate supporting his opinion, I have you acting someone unprofessional by implying that I am on a "bitchfest", when its pretty much the exact opposite. I am not denying that players like Light are extremely skilled, and obviously close to untouchable on iccup, however I am stating that they are beatable, which intrigue seemed to disagree with. 4 losses on his account showcase my point. So where am I wrong? Point to me where my flaw is? Are those 4 loses imaginary? Can only I see them? All I stated was fact. That light has lost 4 games to non-professional gamers, and you decide to come along, and destroy my post with a possible flame attempt? I dont know you, and im sure you could of come off alot better when addressing me for the first time. Its not like im sitting here acting 12years old, without bringing forth a valid point, and a debate alongside it.
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I don't care if you don't want me to respond to you. You're full of shit, and you clearly don't understand the nature of partial knowledge games (games where you can't see what your opponent is doing). In a game such as this the difference between 95% and 85% win at the highest level of play is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in skill. Your "arguements" are pathetic. The basis of your arguement is that light lost 4 games? Wow. Just wow. Of course anyone can lose to anyone else. The measure of skill is HOW OFTEN this happens. All intrigue said was that progamers were on another level (aka far more skilled) than the top non pros, and the limited data we have completely supports this. He did not say progamers were unbeatable.
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Listen jackass. As we've said like 3 times already, INTRIGUE NEVER SAID PROGAMERS COULDN'T BE BEATEN. You might want to read that a few times to really let it sink in. And yes I'm completely flaming you because you deserve it after pulling an arguement out of your ass against intrigue when you had absolutely no grounds in doing so. Everything he said was accurate, then you put words in his mouth and attacked them. Things he never even wrote. By the way, thats why intrigue isn't "debating" you. There's nothing to debate. The entire basis of your arguement is "light has 4 loses" which doesn't matter at all because, once again, NO ONE EVER SAID TOP PROGAMERS WERE UNBEATABLE.
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On November 08 2007 05:37 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
I don't care if you don't want me to respond to you. You're full of shit, and you clearly don't understand the nature of partial knowledge games (games where you can't see what your opponent is doing). In a game such as this the difference between 95% and 85% win at the highest level of play is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in skill. Your "arguements" are pathetic. The basis of your arguement is that light lost 4 games? Wow. Just wow. Of course anyone can lose to anyone else. The measure of skill is HOW OFTEN this happens. All intrigue said was that progamers were on another level (aka far more skilled) than the top non pros, and the limited data we have completely supports this. He did not say progamers were unbeatable.
Its pretty clear you are here to try and draw me out into some sort of flamewar, otherwise your post would of been a bit more respectable. Im glad you think im full of shit, we all are. Its human waste, I remove mine every morning before breakfast. You?.
You pretty much are wasting space responding to me, because your post just agreed with mine. I have stated 3 times now that I also believe korean progamers are pretty close to untouchable, and that at times, even the best are beatable by sub-tier players. So, reading your post above, you said the samething as me. Why are you arguing with me, when he have both stated the same thing? How can someone debate on here, without having people like you misunderstand, and simply try and start a flamewar. So far, 2posts from you contain personal attacks, and nothing anymore relevant than that. Actually, I dunno why I even read them lol.
So lets reiterate, you have posted the same thing as me, and yet you are fighting me on it. So we both agree that progamers are borderline untouchable, but can lose sometimes (LIKE I JUST SAID BY SHOWING LIGHTS 4 LOSES). So, where are YOU heading with this? because so far, I cant find where we dont agree.
now to give you something to flame me about. Dont respond to me with some random made up 95%/85% winrate difference BS. That came 100% out of your own mind, and has absolutely no merit in this conversation. You made that statement up, and until you can prove statistically that all 95% win percentage players outweigh anyone averaging an 85%win percentage, your statement is pure opinion, and means nothing.
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One last thing before Theforeverwar decides to go all out, and curse the night away. I never once said intrigue stated that. I simply stated my opinion that what he said was wrong. You dont have to outright say something for it to be implied. He implied that \"RANDOM A/A+ level KOREANS DONT HAVE SHIT ON PROGAMERS". So to me that pretty much implies that he thinks, random A+ koreans CANNOT BEAT progamers. The reason I asked you not to step in and start flaming me like an arrogant teenager, is because I wanted intrigue to respond, clarifiying his POST
So, he would respond and clarify. I would either offer him an apology (like a proper man would) if I was wrong with his assumptions, OR, I would continue to debate with him, if I was right about his assumptions. Now however, I have you flaming me over and over, when all I simply wanted was intrigue to respond , clarifying what he meant. SIMPLE AS THAT...ok? but please, I know you wont be able to resist. Go ahead, and start flaming, ive already went too much off topic, and seem to be dragging you with me.
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On November 08 2007 05:47 eXigent. wrote:
You pretty much are wasting space responding to me, because your post just agreed with mine. I have stated 3 times now that I also believe korean progamers are pretty close to untouchable, and that at times, even the best are beatable by sub-tier players. So, reading your post above, you said the samething as me. Why are you arguing with me, when he have both stated the same thing? How can someone debate on here, without having people like you misunderstand, and simply try and start a flamewar. So far, 2posts from you contain personal attacks, and nothing anymore relevant than that. Actually, I dunno why I even read them lol.
So lets reiterate, you have posted the same thing as me, and yet you are fighting me on it. So we both agree that progamers are borderline untouchable, but can lose sometimes (LIKE I JUST SAID BY SHOWING LIGHTS 4 LOSES). So, where are YOU heading with this? because so far, I cant find where we dont agree.
you're wasting space too, because you started by "debating" intrigue's viewpoint even though there was no reason to...
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On November 08 2007 05:53 eXigent. wrote:
One last thing before Theforeverwar decides to go all out, and curse the night away. I never once said intrigue stated that. I simply stated my opinion that what he said was wrong. You dont have to outright say something for it to be implied. He implied that \"RANDOM A/A+ level KOREANS DONT HAVE SHIT ON PROGAMERS". So to me that pretty much implies that he thinks, random A+ koreans CANNOT BEAT progamers. The reason I asked you not to step in and start flaming me like an arrogant teenager, is because I wanted intrigue to respond, clarifiying his POST
So, he would respond and clarify. I would either offer him an apology (like a proper man would) if I was wrong with his assumptions, OR, I would continue to debate with him, if I was right about his assumptions. Now however, I have you flaming me over and over, when all I simply wanted was intrigue to respond , clarifying what he meant. SIMPLE AS THAT...ok? but please, I know you wont be able to resist. Go ahead, and start flaming, ive already went too much off topic, and seem to be dragging you with me.
maybe you should re read his post? he didn't say that random a+ koreans can't beat pros, he just said they'd lose to them almost all the time. the fact that light is 87-4 proves that, not the other way around.
On November 08 2007 02:29 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2007 23:14 SaJeR wrote:
I think that more than a 75% is very good for a progamer in the A+ ranks. You can ever eat a cheese, rush, or some weird bo. And... in the leagues I don't know any progamer with more than a 70% of wins (normally they have like 60% or less) so... why practicing against other koreans of a good level will be different? ;P random korean A/A+s don't have shit on a progamer that is on a team's starting roster, cheese or not the level is completely different the iccup rating scale simply isn't large enough for a progamer to be accurately placed. it'd be pretty surprising to see a progamer at A+ with anything less than a 90% win ratio.
note that fact that he said "anything less than 90% win ratio"
i guess your argument is fair because in your mind you twisted this statement into intrigue saying "LOLOL PROS SLAY EVERYONE ON ICCUP EZILY A+ NERDS HAVE NO CHANCE"
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Actually, it would of equated to 4 posts total. Him responding to me, and me responding to that. That's not wasted space in a forum used for typing...is it? I dont intend on creating drama/hatred towards my personality, but usually when someone attacks me on a personal level, its grounds for a response. Other than that, I apologize for using up space, and maybe next time if people can act calm, and relaxed, I can leave the fire extinguisher at the door =/.
EDIT: You also need to read his post, because he didnt say they would lose to them all the time either. He said, they dont got shit on them. That is not what you stated above now is it?. This crap works both ways, so lets drop it. thanks.
I didnt twist his statement either. Whats with you people and putting words into my mouth lol. I simply stated my opinion. Which was the opposite of his. Arrest me now?
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This is hilarious, ForeverWar always overreacts massively to everything and starts shouting.
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So basicly intrigue said random A+ koreans dont have shit on top progamers and you said they do.
Now we only have to find out what having shit on someone means, once you've cleared that up we can go on with posting irrelevant information of iccup-koreans because midian and his repcrew isn't here anymore
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On November 08 2007 06:09 eXigent. wrote:
Actually, it would of equated to 4 posts total. Him responding to me, and me responding to that. That's not wasted space in a forum used for typing...is it? I dont intend on creating drama/hatred towards my personality, but usually when someone attacks me on a personal level, its grounds for a response. Other than that, I apologize for using up space, and maybe next time if people can act calm, and relaxed, I can leave the fire extinguisher at the door =/.
EDIT: You also need to read his post, because he didnt say they would lose to them all the time either. He said, they dont got shit on them. That is not what you stated above now is it?. This crap works both ways, so lets drop it. thanks.
I didnt twist his statement either. Whats with you people and putting words into my mouth lol. I simply stated my opinion. Which was the opposite of his. Arrest me now? you dont even KNOW if your opinion is the opposite of his, because you don't seem to be clear on what his opinion was...anoth3rday is right -_-
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
hm, it seems like i wasn't clear enough
what i meant was LOLOL PROS SLAY EVERYONE ON ICCUP EZILY A+ NERDS HAVE NO CHANCE
edit: exigent, let's just drop it unless you feel that you have been slapped in the face or severely wronged by my initial post (in which case you can pm me). i honestly don't care enough about the subject to try to argue.
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Thank you, finally someone with a calm response!
I hear finding the meaning of "having shit on someone" is a journey all in its own. A good 15page, flame filled, neverending, eventually coming down to personal insult journey. I'd need new shoes T_T
just to get things back on topic: Some replays of A ranked gamers. Col_drake has 130,000 replays, and maybe he should put them to good use! Trying to find hotkey matches.
Toma217 - A- 112-69
Replay
Replay
Suzuki B- 60-19
Replay
replay
SpiritofZerg A 165-149
Replay
Replay
Also, I see sea.up is playing as well. 1 loss to bate, who was removed for both win abusing and mineral hacking. I asked him if he was UpMagic, and told him he did good against NaDa. He responded with "k, ty". Maybe he will play in a tournament, and we can see a replay.
Sea.up
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GGoMa)is( = hungtran back again :p
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EPT
