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Sorusaba
266 Posts
On October 27 2018 20:52 NoRegreT_ wrote: I welcome advice guys Ive been working hard on improving it makes me sad seeing how you have to wade through some of the vitriol here; it is undeserved I have no idea what kind of advice to give you, but I hope you keep your head high and keep up the good work! | ||
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Wonk
546 Posts
On October 27 2018 21:05 oxKnu wrote: Honestly you guys are fine but you have to know your builds better, it often catches you off-guard in game and that kind of disrupts the flow of the games. I recommend just going through builds on your own A-Z to find out how they counter each-other etc.. I agree. You pick up on a lot of important things but sometimes misread where a build is going or see something quite normal for the matchup and think it's a unconventional play, nothing a bit more research into the current meta wouldn't help with. Your deductions on the overall strategy and the direction of the game are good. Apart from that I've got no problems with your guys cast. Good luck with the finals tomorrow! | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1393 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
On October 27 2018 20:52 NoRegreT_ wrote: I welcome advice guys Ive been working hard on improving Hey! I don't know if you're playing BW or not. If you are it makes a huge difference to casting. Because if you play and make builds and try to learn what build counters what it should help immensely. I feel like this is where you're lacking the most. Sometimes a player makes a clear strategic move that defines his entire game plan and you just miss it. Like Last, he goes gas-less expand and if you listen to Artosis, he will usually say how the Protoss can kill it, how exactly the build is good, why it scales good or bad in a longer game. I feel like you will say something along the lines of "We see Last goes expand without gas. Let's see now what Shuttle does." People don't need a simple narration, we can see which player does what. More like, and this is my opinion but we need strategic insight, something we are likely to miss. As in the gas-less example - Protoss can make something aggressive like proxy a robo and do a Reaver without a shuttle. Or double expand and x is better in this way, while y is better in that way. I am completely lost in Z builds as I have never played Z and I have no idea why they sometimes do 11 hatch and 11 pool vs T instead of 11 hatch and 10 pool, for example. Oh, I am not even sure it is 11 hatch, it might be 12/12 for all I know. Yet I know it makes a huge difference 5 minutes later, I just do not know in which way. It should be your job as a caster to dig it up and know why and tell casual viewers like me how this player is setting himself with this particular build. It feels overwhelming, I am sure. But this is no reason to stop improving, is it? I actually enjoy your style of expressing and I wish you swift learning so you can progress. And don't let haters stop you, they will always be here. Cheers! | ||
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Athinira
Denmark33 Posts
On October 27 2018 22:54 jjmmtt wrote: I don't understand why they have the 3rd place decider separate to when the grand finals are played. They should have the 3rd place decider before the grand finals at the venue, I think it'd be a good series to have before the main event to fill the day out. Maybe it costs too much or something. Oh well. Can be too time-consuming. 2 series that can both potentially go to game 5 = up to 10 games. And since games can also vary a lot in length, you have the potential for a 10+ hour event. Now that is of course an absolutely insane worst case scenario, but still. | ||
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Panthous
30 Posts
As for commentary, if you are a SC2 player and you are doing casting for SC BW, there is no way you can do expert commentary. So people who say 'read up on builds more', that doesn't work. If you do then you literally get what Rapid is doing. He is trying to provide expert commentary by combining what he read on for example Liquipedia in terms of builds with what is going on in the game. You will just misinterpret what is happening. Only way to do expert commentary is to become a better player and experience strategies for yourself. Only then you can recognize things. I think there is some blockage in terms of mindset when you are only watching compared to the mindset you can get into when you think as a player and you know you have limited information on what is going on in the game and you are trying to reconstruct the actual picture. For example, in game 1 when Last was doing a 2 fact push with tanks, he first moved out with just 2 tanks and marines and the casters were surprised. The answer is obvious. He cannot show those tanks he can only have if he has 2 facts. So he has to pretend he has 1 fact and only 1 fact amount of tanks. So he pushes our with half his tanks because there may be goons or just a probe just outside Last's base to check if the terran is moving out. So Last succeeded and not only was he able to hide the fact that he was doing a 2 fact. He was also able to move all his tanks without being delayed all the way to the protoss choke, which is bad even if terran is doing a 1 fact build. Obviously, you need to force sieges or delay or use goon range to pick off some marines and give the terran the opportunity to make a mistake. More subtle was that Shuttle earlier in that game did move into range of the bunker to see the CC and saw no CC being build. This was explained by the casters. But strangely enough Shuttle didn't put 1 and 1 together and somehow still build a nexus and not a second gate. I had hoped an expert player would have explained to me why Shuttle did not realize what was going on, or just explain to me it was a very silly mistake, or some mind game going on. I also didn't understand why Shuttle didn't use good range on the bunker at all. Was he faking skipping goon range into maybe DTs? And therefore, he assumed Last thought he was going DTs and wouldn't move out with a potential 2 fact? If you are not an expert, all you can do is have good chemistry between the two casters and be entertaining. How exactly to do this depends on your audience. I don't know if it is true that the English SC BW audience is way way older than SC2 players and SC2 casters, but I guess they are. This may play a role in what style of humor to have, but maybe not since Artosis and Tasteless haven't changed much in that respect. I thought they did a good job on Leta vs Reality. But then one of them was a SC BW player? The American Korean guy? As for saying SC2 terms incorrectly, ie widow mines, that is annoying but even Artosis does it, so I don't know. Also, Tasteless hasn't been playing SC BW properly for a long long time. So if he can be a respected caster then so can someone transitioning in from SC2. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On October 27 2018 20:52 NoRegreT_ wrote: I welcome advice guys Ive been working hard on improving Hi, I sincerely want to enjoy English casts and I don't want to mute it or have to tune into Korean casts where I don't understand a thing. I appreciate that you're trying to improve and I will try to help. My advice is as follows: 1) Acknowledge that you are bad at the game. I've been playing casually for 10 years and I still consider myself bad at it. Learn more about the game. Play it, watch it, discuss with someone (who is good at the game) about it, so you know what you're looking at. Currently you don't have a basic level game knowledge for a game that is so much deeper than I myself can imagine. 2) If you don't know what's happening or aren't sure what to expect, which is understandable because it takes so much to learn the game, at least respect it. Please don't wing it while pretending to know what you are doing. It might work in other situations in life (eg. as a car salesman) but, you're not fooling anyone here, because the BW audience knows their stuff. 3) Imagine watching a tennis match and the commentator talks about table tennis, and how it makes you feel. "Oh if it were table tennis he wouldn't have to run that far to catch the ball" "In table tennis the weight of the ball has been nerfed so we don't get table tennis elbows as much har harhar" "Imagine if the tennis balls were made of plastic too, we'd have a different dynamic in tennis" Please stop it. It's extremely irritating, we don't give a damn about table tennis when we are watching tennis. 4) Watch and learn from Artosis and especially Tasteless, because he's the guy who has less BW knowledge. With relation to point (1) and (2), they realise that they have a lot to learn about the game and Tasteless often admits that he doesn't know what's going on. What he does? He humbly asks Artosis to elaborate on the situation and they have a discussion about the possibilities. If they don't know something they admit it. (eg. "I'm not sure but I think [...]") With relation to point (3), when they talk about SC2, they do it sparingly, only to explain some details like "in BW cracklings are a lot stronger." Additionally, Tasteless would usually humbly talk say something like "we the BW fans already know this but we usually have some viewers from SC2 and [....]" Note that they have missed several important things before and don't always get things right, but it's ok because they miss the things that are on a higher level of detail and never fail on the basics (which you do), and their humility and respect for the game makes up for it, resulting in an enjoyable viewer experience. I have absolutely no wish to them for missing out on certain things. Lastly, they have other qualities which add to the experience (charm, wit, humour), but it's not something I am faulting you for. I'm not tuning off because you're not funny. Good luck and I hope enjoy watching a game you have casted in the future. On October 27 2018 21:12 Sorusaba wrote: it makes me sad seeing how you have to wade through some of the vitriol here; it is undeserved I have no idea what kind of advice to give you, but I hope you keep your head high and keep up the good work! It's not vitrol, we are not telling him to go kill himself or anything of that sort. We are expressing our frustration with listening to him. It is very much deserved and he should know it if he wants to get better. My wish is to be able to watch a game casted in English when Tastosis goes for a break. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3088 Posts
I enjoyed your casting tonight Noregret, it wasn't too bad, to be honest. Once you catch up a bit of Brood war you should be fine. Edit: In the end you just need experience casting and playing/watching a lot of games. That will help you get better also. It's hard to go from SC2 to BW and vice versa. Would be good if you could cast a few games with Artosis to. He can help you a lot like he did Rapid. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On October 27 2018 20:52 NoRegreT_ wrote: I welcome advice guys Ive been working hard on improving Game 1 You guys did well saying that going for a 11rax/12gas opens the opportunity for Last to go 2fac and added on the fact that Shuttle's scout was denied, but you guys wandered off into "oh bad players will sometimes proxy a fac and float it in the base," and completely missed the fact that Last built the bunker to fake an expansion. At 4;20-4:40, the person in control of the spectator screen highlights Last's 2fac with delayed machine shop upgrades for extra tanks while Shuttle is being lax with his scouting and not pressuring the bunker with his range goons and going 1gateFE with goon range into robo. Shuttle not cutting probes and going for observers instead of reavers sealed his fate at minute 5. There's a reason the Korean caster in charge of the screen hovers over their bases at that exact point -- it's vitally important. This is as close to a hard counter as you can get, and it took you guys all the way to minute 6 when Last is at Shuttle's doorstep to realize Shuttle was screwed and needed reavers ages ago. We can't fault you guys for not knowing that there's no such thing as a "gas 2fac," that you're supposed to 2fac with marines/tanks/scvs with the vultures reinforcing so that the vultures will arrive at the same time as the tanks, that marines are needed to soak damage during a 2fac push, that Last's bunker was a sick mind-game, that Shuttle building a robo after his 3rd pylon means that he's slightly delaying tech in favor of eco, or that the Protoss needs to pressure the bunker to confirm a siege expansion and to delay any possible push. If you guys don't know what's going on, don't pretend to know what's going on. Bluntly speaking, you guys don't know enough about BW to be commentating on the intricacies in this game, and honestly, that might be your biggest advantage over Tastosis. Ask yourselves what is going on. Instead of saying "Shuttle's scout got denied, oh obviously he needed to scout what Last is doing", ask yourselves + the audience "Why isn't shuttle trying to send a second scout? Why is he sending dragoon to chase that scout SCV instead of keeping tabs on the Terran? What is Shuttle so afraid of that is making him scout all around home instead of pressuring the Terran?" You guys were close in saying "What is shuttle scouting for with that dragoon? He didn't see a command center right?" What you guys missed was ,"But maybe Last's command center timing is delayed?" Shouldn't Shuttle confirm that Last is doing a siege expansion?" ____ Game 2 You guys don't know BW history, so don't even try to educate us on that..."vultures used to be bad units" or "players used to DT rush all the time", things of that sort of nature. That's a topic to completely avoid for you guys. Can't fault you guys for not knowing that Shuttle building the Robo before his 3rd pylon means Shuttle is probably going for reavers. This build would've been much better versus a 2fac, but you delay your eco for that tech grab. Nor can we fault you for not knowing that Last saw a robo with no Cybernetic core spinning, so Last knew that reavers were probably on the way. Shuttle's expo at the 7oclock base was stupid, no doubt about that. Once that Nexus went down and Last's 3rd went up, it's basically game over at that point...not that much to commentate on in that game. __ Game 3 You could've commentated that Shuttle learned from his mistake and started pressuring the bunker to keep tabs on the Terran and make sure no 2facs are coming. You're correct in saying that the build with the early academy is generally passive, but the main purpose is to allow the Terran to skip minerals on turrets in favor for earlier upgrades and to play more reactively to what he scouts. This was the reason for Last's small 3 tank/marine push right as he started to build the comsat so that he can punish/retreat according to what he scouts. You could've asked here "Why is Last moving out on the map with such a small force? What is he looking to punish or to react to? Why is Shuttle not there at the CB choke to contest this type of move from Last? You'll never get a blind wraith from the Terran. Can't fault you for not knowing that Last knew Reavers were coming in the previous game, but again, avoid topics that require game knowledge. Perhaps say "Starport for Dropships maybe? Wraiths are also an option if shuttle decides to go reavers again." Typical macro game where Shuttle yet again has horrible decision making. Absolutely no usage of Protoss mobility advantage and lets Last move into the middle of the middle of the map with minimal resistance, which resulted into Shuttle being out-of-position and running 2/3 of his army head first into a sieged army...or Shuttle just gave up. Game spirals downhill for Shuttle as Last takes complete map control __ For Flash vs Effort, explicitly look for: - Drone vs combat unit production and balance from Effort. This series will be heavily decided by Effort's choice and execution of his build order. - 1-1-1 reaction and timing from Flash. If Flash can correctly scout and react to Effort's build order in a timely fashion, he will most likely come out on top. -Try to anticipate if vessels or defliers/consume will come out first. Should be the former, but if Effort's build pays off, you'll know because he'll be able to get hive tech out before or at the same time as the vessels without sacrificing too much eco. -Whenever the Korean commentators move the screen to something, you'll need to be very quick to realize what they're trying to show the audience. If they're hovering over buildings, its something to do with the build order. If they're hovering over workers, they're probably looking at the drone count/production or if Flash stopped worker production. If they're hovering over units, they're probably looking at how many units they have with respect to how much time has passed by. This last point is especially critical because Zerg has the ability to cut drones and vary their rush time, while the 1-1-1 build is heavily dependent on reaction + build time. Casting BW is not an easy job. There are a lot of nuances that takes years to know and to truly appreciate, and I think you guys are doing an okay job given the circumstances. Maybe on your down time, watch more Day[9] videos, read some BW articles, watch korean games with english subtitles, and play more games in general. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Game 1, doesn't scout. If he thinks terran expands why not atleast keep goons outside T base? Game 2, who builds his base like that? Game 3, uhm, just bad standard. Even a low level toss can have max army out in the middle at 12:30. I'm quite baffled by this series tbh. | ||
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Panthous
30 Posts
Not really a series to use as a game to just commentary by. Anyone would be confused. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 27 2018 20:52 NoRegreT_ wrote: I welcome advice guys Ive been working hard on improving Honestly, this attitude is really impressive. No anger, no hostility, no frustration. Just a pure "I want to get better, help me.". That's really encouraging! In my opinion, more than anything it's builds and game knowledge. You're actually commentating is fine, but there are too many times where you don't know the build, what's going to happen, or who has the advantage and why. A degree of this is fine, as you're not a color commentator like Artosis that has been playing this game for 20 years with a passion. In your case, there are times though where the lack of BW experience is strong enough to be a distraction. My personal advice would be two things. The first is in your current casting, stick to play by play commentary, and refrain from trying to offer analysis. Call exciting play by play action. If you have strategic things to ask or add, consider phrasing them as questions to your partner in the cast. The second part is just getting more BW knowledge. Talk to somebody like Artosis, or use Foreign Broodwar Discord as a place to ask about builds and the game. If you don't play BW, try to find at least a few hours a week to dedicated it, and spend some time watching reps/FPView Afreeca streams. I'm pretty confident if you put in the work to improve your knowledge and experience you'll have a pretty solid BW casting package to offer, and you can gradually expand your commentary from being strictly play by play to more analysis as experience grows. | ||
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Artas1984
Lithuania99 Posts
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KamMoye
United States721 Posts
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