Group A: - If Flash wins, he will qualify for Ro8 - If Bogus wins, there will be a tiebreaker between him, Flash and Action.
Group B: - If Fantasy wins, he will qualify for Ro8 and a tiebreaker between Grape, Mini and Rush - If Grape wins, he will qualify for Ro8 with Fantasy Group C: - If Soulkey wins, he will qualify for Ro8 - If Hyvaa wins, there will be a tiebreaker between him, Soulkey and Hydra
Group D: - If Soo wins, he will qualify for Ro8 - If Horang2 wins, there will be a tiebreaker between him, Soo and Stork
dunno if it should be added to OP
edit: OMFG, got ninja'ed while I was having a phone call with a customer
He is our ace dude how can you be so pessimistic T_T
How can one be optimistic about anything BW-related in these dire days?
Yeah, but vs. Bogus?! Fantasy essentially pulled off a miracle. I'd be shocked if Bogus could play anywhere near that level. And it's hard to get lucky in TvT.
He is our ace dude how can you be so pessimistic T_T
How can one be optimistic about anything BW-related in these dire days?
Yeah, but vs. Bogus?! Fantasy essentially pulled off a miracle. I'd be shocked if Bogus could play anywhere near that level. And it's hard to get lucky in TvT.
Ssak and Classic both did it... on the same day. I'm not taking anything for granted.
On May 30 2012 19:42 Sawamura wrote: Can someone live reportu ?
Sure. Flash places a proxy, but not early rax in the middle, Bogus opens rax first as well, so he will be fine. (Flash spawned in the bottom left, Bogus in top left on Sniper Ridge)
On May 30 2012 19:42 Sawamura wrote: Can someone live reportu ?
Sure. Flash places a proxy, but not early rax in the middle, Bogus opens rax first as well, so he will be fine. (Flash spawned in the bottom left, Bogus in top left on Sniper Ridge)
Marines meet as planned, Flash is already floating the rax towards Bogus' base, and starts a CC and a factory. Bogus is setting up for a fast CC himself, and starts it when Flash's is at 500 hp. Bogus' scout is denied, but he sees the CC timing, Flash walks a scout in Bogus's base, to be killed by the first vulture.
Bogus tries to use the new small ramp on this version of the map, pushing with 3 vults and marines, but Flash expects it, and defends. Bogus reinforces though, so Flash has to pull SCVs. Flash is losing SCVs due to the constant vultures streaming in, tries repair microing his vultures, but he's outnumbered.
Vultures make it into Flash's base, and the popping goliaths are slow at killing them. Finally they do clear them up, but Flash must be behind after losing 6+ SCVs during the vulture pressure. Bogus is switching to goliath production, going up to 3 facts.
Bogus loses his floating rax to goliaths, but starts 2 more factories just before it burns down. Bogus has a dropship ready, Flash is taking a fast third. Vulture drop incoming.
Flash pulls scvs with starsense to save them from the vulture drop, vultures mine up the base, but only damage one tank, and they are cleared up. Bogus tries droppign the nat with golis, but they are repelled. 2 dropship harass, one at nat, one at main, they join forces in the main, golis and vults! Flash defends well, but is busy multitasking while Bogus starts moving his army down the map, threatening the third!
Bogus vulture drops, terror in the main of Flash! Tank eats a mine, but he clears the threat. Goliath/vult drop for Bogus! Bogus moves with his army! Flash clears the threat and tries to expand to 9, but Bogus sieges tanks nearby. Flash harassing tankline with raisu.
Bogus' tanks siege the third, which is floating now. Flash's wraith denies the harass, tries to stop the siege on the third, but repairing scv and arriving wraith send it away. Bogus is setting up a siege position on the high ground at 9 - Flash's old third, and even has range on the edge of Flash's min line at the nat. Not looking good for Flash, they are on equal bases, but Bogus has him semi-contained, while still harassing.
The game slows down now, Flash is floating his third CC to the other third at 6, but doesnt land yet. Wraiths deny Bogus' try at harassing again, flash is taking his third, while Bogus is trying to set up a contain to deny that. CC lands, but no SCVs. Bogus has taken Flash's original third, and made a valk to defend from wraits, even though Flash only has 2
Now Bogus has a supply advantage, a huge positional advantage, and an expansion that went up faster. Flash really isn't playing as expected, and Bogus is extremely aggressive.
Moderate engagement outside of Flash's third, both sides lose a lot, but Bogus is happier trading armies at this point. Flash only takes gas from his third, Bogus is starting his fourth base at 12. Not looking good for Flash.
Bogus scouting the map for hidden expos, finding nothing. Flash loses a drophsip to a turret.
Flash expands to 6, tires to break the siegeline near his nat, but Bogus holds with vultures and a valk. Bogus took 9 in the meantime, 126-96 supply lead. Bogus roams the map looking for expos, spots 6. Bogus reinforces the siegeline and take 12.
Bogus played it really well after getting the early lead with the vultures. Kinda similar to the fantasy loss, just never let flash breathe for the rest of the game
Vultures deny Flash any mining at his third, Bogus now has him completely contained to two bases, while setting up his fourth. Flash is trying to move out with two dropships, but Bogus is pushing the front with overwhelming numbers!
Flash will have to tap out looks like, they both bring scvs
GG from Flash!
impressive play by Bogus, out-multitasked God, and looks very smug leaving the booth.
On May 30 2012 19:57 Kanil wrote: So cute to see all the Flash fans blaming it on SC2.
Ever since Flash reached his 70% average win streak in late 2010-ish, I had never seen him play that poorly and sloppy. Not to take any credit away from Bogus, he played really well, but Flash could have done better (especially considering he had gotten important scout information at the start of the game).
Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
On May 30 2012 19:59 Scarecrow wrote: Too many stupid sc2 comments, flash has dropped tvt's to random terran's before. Give bogus some credit
Lol c'mon when was the last time you have seen Flash playing this bad ? When he got elminated from last groups ssak played great baiting wraiths and crushing them with valks. I have never seen Flash playing this bad.... in a TvT.
On May 30 2012 19:59 Scarecrow wrote: Too many stupid sc2 comments, flash has dropped tvt's to random terran's before. Give bogus some credit
Indeed, while Flash's control was questionable, we should give credit where it's due - Bogus played very well, with only a couple small mistakes (like late upgrades despite early armory).
Sure. Flash places a proxy, but not early rax in the middle, Bogus opens rax first as well, so he will be fine. (Flash spawned in the bottom left, Bogus in top left on Sniper Ridge)
Marines meet as planned, Flash is already floating the rax towards Bogus' base, and starts a CC and a factory. Bogus is setting up for a fast CC himself, and starts it when Flash's is at 500 hp. Bogus' scout is denied, but he sees the CC timing, Flash walks a scout in Bogus's base, to be killed by the first vulture.
Bogus tries to use the new small ramp on this version of the map, pushing with 3 vults and marines, but Flash expects it, and defends. Bogus reinforces though, so Flash has to pull SCVs. Flash is losing SCVs due to the constant vultures streaming in, tries repair microing his vultures, but he's outnumbered.
Vultures make it into Flash's base, and the popping goliaths are slow at killing them. Finally they do clear them up, but Flash must be behind after losing 6+ SCVs during the vulture pressure. Bogus is switching to goliath production, going up to 3 facts.
Bogus loses his floating rax to goliaths, but starts 2 more factories just before it burns down. Bogus has a dropship ready, Flash is taking a fast third. Vulture drop incoming.
Flash pulls scvs with starsense to save them from the vulture drop, vultures mine up the base, but only damage one tank, and they are cleared up. Bogus tries droppign the nat with golis, but they are repelled. 2 dropship harass, one at nat, one at main, they join forces in the main, golis and vults! Flash defends well, but is busy multitasking while Bogus starts moving his army down the map, threatening the third!
Bogus' tanks siege the third, which is floating now. Flash's wraith denies the harass, tries to stop the siege on the third, but repairing scv and arriving wraith send it away. Bogus is setting up a siege position on the high ground at 9 - Flash's old third, and even has range on the edge of Flash's min line at the nat. Not looking good for Flash, they are on equal bases, but Bogus has him semi-contained, while still harassing.
The game slows down now, Flash is floating his third CC to the other third at 6, but doesnt land yet. Wraiths deny Bogus' try at harassing again, flash is taking his third, while Bogus is trying to set up a contain to deny that. CC lands, but no SCVs. Bogus has taken Flash's original third, and made a valk to defend from wraits, even though Flash only has 2
Moderate engagement outside of Flash's third, both sides lose a lot, but Bogus is happier trading armies at this point. Flash only takes gas from his third, Bogus is starting his fourth base at 12. Not looking good for Flash.
Bogus scouting the map for hidden expos, finding nothing. Flash loses a drophsip to a turret.
Vultures deny Flash any mining at his third, Bogus now has him completely contained to two bases, while setting up his fourth. Flash is trying to move out with two dropships, but Bogus is pushing the front with overwhelming numbers!
Flash will have to tap out looks like, they both bring scvs
GG from Flash!
impressive play by Bogus, out-multitasked God, and looks very smug leaving the booth.
On May 30 2012 19:57 Scarecrow wrote: Bogus played it really well after getting the early lead with the vultures. Kinda similar to the fantasy loss, just never let flash breathe for the rest of the game
that's how you beat flash! dont give him ANY room to move
On May 30 2012 20:02 538 wrote: My merged LR posts about game one, maybe someone will find it handy: + Show Spoiler [Flash vs Bogus] +
Sure. Flash places a proxy, but not early rax in the middle, Bogus opens rax first as well, so he will be fine. (Flash spawned in the bottom left, Bogus in top left on Sniper Ridge)
Marines meet as planned, Flash is already floating the rax towards Bogus' base, and starts a CC and a factory. Bogus is setting up for a fast CC himself, and starts it when Flash's is at 500 hp. Bogus' scout is denied, but he sees the CC timing, Flash walks a scout in Bogus's base, to be killed by the first vulture.
Bogus tries to use the new small ramp on this version of the map, pushing with 3 vults and marines, but Flash expects it, and defends. Bogus reinforces though, so Flash has to pull SCVs. Flash is losing SCVs due to the constant vultures streaming in, tries repair microing his vultures, but he's outnumbered.
Vultures make it into Flash's base, and the popping goliaths are slow at killing them. Finally they do clear them up, but Flash must be behind after losing 6+ SCVs during the vulture pressure. Bogus is switching to goliath production, going up to 3 facts.
Bogus loses his floating rax to goliaths, but starts 2 more factories just before it burns down. Bogus has a dropship ready, Flash is taking a fast third. Vulture drop incoming.
Flash pulls scvs with starsense to save them from the vulture drop, vultures mine up the base, but only damage one tank, and they are cleared up. Bogus tries droppign the nat with golis, but they are repelled. 2 dropship harass, one at nat, one at main, they join forces in the main, golis and vults! Flash defends well, but is busy multitasking while Bogus starts moving his army down the map, threatening the third!
Bogus' tanks siege the third, which is floating now. Flash's wraith denies the harass, tries to stop the siege on the third, but repairing scv and arriving wraith send it away. Bogus is setting up a siege position on the high ground at 9 - Flash's old third, and even has range on the edge of Flash's min line at the nat. Not looking good for Flash, they are on equal bases, but Bogus has him semi-contained, while still harassing.
The game slows down now, Flash is floating his third CC to the other third at 6, but doesnt land yet. Wraiths deny Bogus' try at harassing again, flash is taking his third, while Bogus is trying to set up a contain to deny that. CC lands, but no SCVs. Bogus has taken Flash's original third, and made a valk to defend from wraits, even though Flash only has 2
Moderate engagement outside of Flash's third, both sides lose a lot, but Bogus is happier trading armies at this point. Flash only takes gas from his third, Bogus is starting his fourth base at 12. Not looking good for Flash.
Bogus scouting the map for hidden expos, finding nothing. Flash loses a drophsip to a turret.
Vultures deny Flash any mining at his third, Bogus now has him completely contained to two bases, while setting up his fourth. Flash is trying to move out with two dropships, but Bogus is pushing the front with overwhelming numbers!
Flash will have to tap out looks like, they both bring scvs
GG from Flash!
impressive play by Bogus, out-multitasked God, and looks very smug leaving the booth.
On May 30 2012 20:01 Zona wrote: Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
-.- what's with the kneejerk reactions? That game was hardly an abomination. He had a BO loss to Jangbi then drops a TvT and suddenly it's the end of the world. If he loses the tiebreak then maybe you've got a leg to stand on.
Bogus played brilliantly, Flash played right into his hands. To what degree SC2 itself contributed towards flash's two losses in the Ro16... its much too early to tell.
IMO,, games are too-one sided and not as intense as it used to be.
I'm trying hard to care but the truth is I don't view this OSL as being that legitimate. Flash lost, no big deal. This is nothing like when he lost to Ssak and Classic, which was pretty hard to take. Also he's not out entirely yet.
On May 30 2012 20:01 Zona wrote: Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
-.- what's with the kneejerk reactions? That game was hardly an abomination. He had a BO loss to Jangbi then drops a TvT and suddenly it's the end of the world. If he loses the tiebreak then maybe you've got a leg to stand on.
Meh, I was talking about the Kespa scene in general.
And it ain't no kneejerk reaction...I've been giving this as much of a chance as I can.
whenever flash loses, people are so quick to conclude flash didn't play well.
bogus played very, very well. he remained calm and proceeded to optimize his early advantage gained from the marine/vulture poke by knowing exactly how he needed to respond once flash greedily took the fast 9 o clock expo despite the fact he was at a slight disadvantage from the early marine/vulture battle.
On May 30 2012 20:06 hmmm... wrote: whenever flash loses, people are so quick to conclude flash didn't play well.
bogus played very, very well. he remained calm and proceeded to optimize his early advantage gained from the marine/vulture poke by knowing exactly how he needed to respond once flash greedily took the fast 9 o clock expo despite the fact he was at a slight disadvantage from the early marine/vulture battle.
No one is taking anything away from Bogus, but Flash DID play terrible concidering we are talking about FLASH here...
On May 30 2012 20:02 538 wrote: My merged LR posts about game one, maybe someone will find it handy: + Show Spoiler [Flash vs Bogus] +
Sure. Flash places a proxy, but not early rax in the middle, Bogus opens rax first as well, so he will be fine. (Flash spawned in the bottom left, Bogus in top left on Sniper Ridge)
Marines meet as planned, Flash is already floating the rax towards Bogus' base, and starts a CC and a factory. Bogus is setting up for a fast CC himself, and starts it when Flash's is at 500 hp. Bogus' scout is denied, but he sees the CC timing, Flash walks a scout in Bogus's base, to be killed by the first vulture.
Bogus tries to use the new small ramp on this version of the map, pushing with 3 vults and marines, but Flash expects it, and defends. Bogus reinforces though, so Flash has to pull SCVs. Flash is losing SCVs due to the constant vultures streaming in, tries repair microing his vultures, but he's outnumbered.
Vultures make it into Flash's base, and the popping goliaths are slow at killing them. Finally they do clear them up, but Flash must be behind after losing 6+ SCVs during the vulture pressure. Bogus is switching to goliath production, going up to 3 facts.
Bogus loses his floating rax to goliaths, but starts 2 more factories just before it burns down. Bogus has a dropship ready, Flash is taking a fast third. Vulture drop incoming.
Flash pulls scvs with starsense to save them from the vulture drop, vultures mine up the base, but only damage one tank, and they are cleared up. Bogus tries droppign the nat with golis, but they are repelled. 2 dropship harass, one at nat, one at main, they join forces in the main, golis and vults! Flash defends well, but is busy multitasking while Bogus starts moving his army down the map, threatening the third!
Bogus' tanks siege the third, which is floating now. Flash's wraith denies the harass, tries to stop the siege on the third, but repairing scv and arriving wraith send it away. Bogus is setting up a siege position on the high ground at 9 - Flash's old third, and even has range on the edge of Flash's min line at the nat. Not looking good for Flash, they are on equal bases, but Bogus has him semi-contained, while still harassing.
The game slows down now, Flash is floating his third CC to the other third at 6, but doesnt land yet. Wraiths deny Bogus' try at harassing again, flash is taking his third, while Bogus is trying to set up a contain to deny that. CC lands, but no SCVs. Bogus has taken Flash's original third, and made a valk to defend from wraits, even though Flash only has 2
Moderate engagement outside of Flash's third, both sides lose a lot, but Bogus is happier trading armies at this point. Flash only takes gas from his third, Bogus is starting his fourth base at 12. Not looking good for Flash.
Bogus scouting the map for hidden expos, finding nothing. Flash loses a drophsip to a turret.
Vultures deny Flash any mining at his third, Bogus now has him completely contained to two bases, while setting up his fourth. Flash is trying to move out with two dropships, but Bogus is pushing the front with overwhelming numbers!
Flash will have to tap out looks like, they both bring scvs
GG from Flash!
impressive play by Bogus, out-multitasked God, and looks very smug leaving the booth.
On May 30 2012 20:02 538 wrote: My merged LR posts about game one, maybe someone will find it handy: + Show Spoiler [Flash vs Bogus] +
Sure. Flash places a proxy, but not early rax in the middle, Bogus opens rax first as well, so he will be fine. (Flash spawned in the bottom left, Bogus in top left on Sniper Ridge)
Marines meet as planned, Flash is already floating the rax towards Bogus' base, and starts a CC and a factory. Bogus is setting up for a fast CC himself, and starts it when Flash's is at 500 hp. Bogus' scout is denied, but he sees the CC timing, Flash walks a scout in Bogus's base, to be killed by the first vulture.
Bogus tries to use the new small ramp on this version of the map, pushing with 3 vults and marines, but Flash expects it, and defends. Bogus reinforces though, so Flash has to pull SCVs. Flash is losing SCVs due to the constant vultures streaming in, tries repair microing his vultures, but he's outnumbered.
Vultures make it into Flash's base, and the popping goliaths are slow at killing them. Finally they do clear them up, but Flash must be behind after losing 6+ SCVs during the vulture pressure. Bogus is switching to goliath production, going up to 3 facts.
Bogus loses his floating rax to goliaths, but starts 2 more factories just before it burns down. Bogus has a dropship ready, Flash is taking a fast third. Vulture drop incoming.
Flash pulls scvs with starsense to save them from the vulture drop, vultures mine up the base, but only damage one tank, and they are cleared up. Bogus tries droppign the nat with golis, but they are repelled. 2 dropship harass, one at nat, one at main, they join forces in the main, golis and vults! Flash defends well, but is busy multitasking while Bogus starts moving his army down the map, threatening the third!
Bogus' tanks siege the third, which is floating now. Flash's wraith denies the harass, tries to stop the siege on the third, but repairing scv and arriving wraith send it away. Bogus is setting up a siege position on the high ground at 9 - Flash's old third, and even has range on the edge of Flash's min line at the nat. Not looking good for Flash, they are on equal bases, but Bogus has him semi-contained, while still harassing.
The game slows down now, Flash is floating his third CC to the other third at 6, but doesnt land yet. Wraiths deny Bogus' try at harassing again, flash is taking his third, while Bogus is trying to set up a contain to deny that. CC lands, but no SCVs. Bogus has taken Flash's original third, and made a valk to defend from wraits, even though Flash only has 2
Moderate engagement outside of Flash's third, both sides lose a lot, but Bogus is happier trading armies at this point. Flash only takes gas from his third, Bogus is starting his fourth base at 12. Not looking good for Flash.
Bogus scouting the map for hidden expos, finding nothing. Flash loses a drophsip to a turret.
Vultures deny Flash any mining at his third, Bogus now has him completely contained to two bases, while setting up his fourth. Flash is trying to move out with two dropships, but Bogus is pushing the front with overwhelming numbers!
Flash will have to tap out looks like, they both bring scvs
GG from Flash!
impressive play by Bogus, out-multitasked God, and looks very smug leaving the booth.
Had a dentist appointment, missed this game, I love you :>
On May 30 2012 20:01 Zona wrote: Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
i know this sounds extremely silly but i can assure you there will be players to replace TBLS. honestly, who would have thought there would be players to replace boxer, yellow, reach, nada, nal_ra, savior etc?
On May 30 2012 20:10 Zona wrote: Wat...did OGN just say that Grape has 1 win no losses vs terran, 100% but is also no wins 2 losses vs Fantasy, or 0%? How do they select their stats?
They throw darts and use Proleague stats as well, because mixing games makes sense and all that.
On May 30 2012 20:01 Zona wrote: Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
i know this sounds extremely silly but i can assure you there will be players to replace TBLS. honestly, who would have thought there would be players to replace boxer, yellow, reach, nada, nal_ra, savior etc?
Oh, I agree there will be stars to replace them.
But the problem now is that the only thing going for Kespa in this BW->SC2 transition are the stars. If the stars don't perform there will be a shrinkage in the fanbase.
On May 30 2012 20:01 Zona wrote: Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
i know this sounds extremely silly but i can assure you there will be players to replace TBLS. honestly, who would have thought there would be players to replace boxer, yellow, reach, nada, nal_ra, savior etc?
The problem is that the only way to legitimize the transition is to keep some well known player. Don't see it working either anyway, I don't give starcraft on OGN much more time.
Who cares Fantasy is more fun to watch, if Fantasy is the player to overcome in this last season of BW im perfectly fine with this. If ALL players were playing bad than ye, but seriously while iconism is important to little degree you cant really say OSL will be shit without Flash if Jin Air was awesome without JD Flash Bisu Stork in final/semi final it can be as awesome.
On May 30 2012 20:04 J1.au wrote: I'm trying hard to care but the truth is I don't view this OSL as being that legitimate. Flash lost, no big deal. This is nothing like when he lost to Ssak and Classic, which was pretty hard to take. Also he's not out entirely yet.
I pretty much feel the same. =(
There are much more knowledgeable people than me when it comes to game analysis, but this game... I mean Bogus did his job, sure, but I feel like I haven't seen such a bad game from Flash in the last 3-4 years..
Replay shows Bogus took the third at 9 mere seconds after making Flash's CC lift, shows he had an actual gameplan for it, expanding aggressively along his push. it's arguable that flash should have taken the third at 6 instead? That, coupled with the huge number of SCVs lost to vultures sealed Flash's fate earlier than I thought.
Well TBH I do expect to be pleased with the outcome of this OSL...since Fantasy is my favorite player and he doesn't seem to have deteriorated in BW like many other players have.
But one thing to keep in mind is that Kespa gave up one of their few revenue sources (league licensing fees) when agreeing to transition to SC2 (and submitting to Blizzard). I'm just wondering how much of their plan is grounded upon false hope.
On May 30 2012 20:07 538 wrote: Flash lost 14+ SCVs to the initial vulture pressure. No recovery from that.
wat ?
not that many..
lol
That's about what i counted too.
seriously ?
no way man..
I counted like 8 max
which is alot too actually
In mirror builds (also flash proxied) it's not easy to come back from and the double dropship harrass just compounded things and killed more workers. The damage plus his fast third made flash look more stretched/weaker than usual imo. The only thing i really fault is the initial vulture defence
On May 30 2012 20:13 Zona wrote: Well TBH I do expect to be pleased with the outcome of this OSL...since Fantasy is my favorite player and he doesn't seem to have deteriorated in BW like many other players have.
But one thing to keep in mind is that Kespa gave up one of their few revenue sources (league licensing fees) when agreeing to transition to SC2 (and submitting to Blizzard). I'm just wondering how much of their plan is grounded upon false hope.
On May 30 2012 20:01 Zona wrote: Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
i know this sounds extremely silly but i can assure you there will be players to replace TBLS. honestly, who would have thought there would be players to replace boxer, yellow, reach, nada, nal_ra, savior etc?
Oh, I agree there will be stars to replace them.
But the problem now is that the only thing going for Kespa in this BW->SC2 transition are the stars. If the stars don't perform there will be a shrinkage in the fanbase.
On May 30 2012 20:12 538 wrote: Replay shows Bogus took the third at 9 mere seconds after making Flash's CC lift, shows he had an actual gameplan for it, expanding aggressively along his push. it's arguable that flash should have taken the third at 6 instead? That, coupled with the huge number of SCVs lost to vultures sealed Flash's fate earlier than I thought.
9 was way easier to hold with a tank line than 6, he almost did, needed a rax block or a few extra units
On May 30 2012 20:13 Zona wrote: Well TBH I do expect to be pleased with the outcome of this OSL...since Fantasy is my favorite player and he doesn't seem to have deteriorated in BW like many other players have.
But one thing to keep in mind is that Kespa gave up one of their few revenue sources (league licensing fees) when agreeing to transition to SC2 (and submitting to Blizzard). I'm just wondering how much of their plan is grounded upon false hope.
Its true that the whole deal is "mediocre" at best, and bad for fans of both games. But on the other hand its incredibly hard situation, you cant persue BW favorable decision nor SC2 favorable decision when you have split in viewiership (SC2/BW) and LoL knockin on doors.
Fanta going fast 3 scvs on gas, takes one off after starting first fact, Grape opening Core before zealot, fast dragoon range. Fantasy scouts in the right direction, Grape... doesn't scout at all? First goon kills the scouting SCV.
On May 30 2012 20:13 Zona wrote: Well TBH I do expect to be pleased with the outcome of this OSL...since Fantasy is my favorite player and he doesn't seem to have deteriorated in BW like many other players have.
But one thing to keep in mind is that Kespa gave up one of their few revenue sources (league licensing fees) when agreeing to transition to SC2 (and submitting to Blizzard). I'm just wondering how much of their plan is grounded upon false hope.
Bisu and Fanta for me Zona, so yeah, I wouldn't hate that result
I've been thinking recently about what I'd do if I was in the position of these BW progamers. While they're probably not given the choice, I think I'd opt to focus on BW in the hope of winning the last BW OSL, and just accepting that I'd be off the pace initially in SC2.
With everybody trying to catch up in SC2, this current OSL is definitely there for the taking, and that combined with the honour of being the last winner means it's a no-brainer for me.
Probably moot though, as the players will do whatever they're told by their coaches at the end of the day.
On May 30 2012 20:13 Zona wrote: Well TBH I do expect to be pleased with the outcome of this OSL...since Fantasy is my favorite player and he doesn't seem to have deteriorated in BW like many other players have.
But one thing to keep in mind is that Kespa gave up one of their few revenue sources (league licensing fees) when agreeing to transition to SC2 (and submitting to Blizzard). I'm just wondering how much of their plan is grounded upon false hope.
Bisu and Fanta for me Zona, so yeah, I wouldn't hate that result
I've been thinking recently about what I'd do if I was in the position of these BW progamers. While they're probably not given the choice, I think I'd opt to focus on BW in the hope of winning the last BW OSL, and just accepting that I'd be off the pace initially in SC2.
With everybody trying to catch up in SC2, this current OSL is definitely there for the taking, and that combined with the honour of being the last winner means it's a no-brainer for me.
Probably moot though, as the players will do whatever they're told by their coaches at the end of the day.
Well, I'd guess it depends how much they value their current salary...vs future prospects and getting their military duty over with
2 vultures in the main again, mines dropped, probe rape...
Why couldn't JangBi have played more like this. I mean, Grape just signals that he's going to lose the game with his facial expression before it even starts.
I was glad to see Grape get manly with double shuttles to try to make a last-ditch attempt, but he played that all wrong at the end. Didn't even have his army together, he wants to A-move backstab with 5 dragoons against a terran?!
As much as I appreciate seeing more starcraft because of the tiebreakers, both of these games haven't been that great to watch. Really solid efforts from Fantasy/Bogus, if only Flash/Grape had responded in turn. : /
On May 30 2012 20:01 Zona wrote: Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
-.- what's with the kneejerk reactions? That game was hardly an abomination. He had a BO loss to Jangbi then drops a TvT and suddenly it's the end of the world. If he loses the tiebreak then maybe you've got a leg to stand on.
Meh, I was talking about the Kespa scene in general.
And it ain't no kneejerk reaction...I've been giving this as much of a chance as I can.
No. This is totally kneejerk. What you are suggesting is that KESPA needs to do something to make sure the "Stars" get better treatment. Already went through one match fixing scandal... we do not need a "Star fixing" scandal.
On May 30 2012 20:33 wassbix wrote: FANTASY MY KING IVE WAITED SO LONG ; _ ;
Indeed, being a Fantasy fan is a massive rollercoaster that wreaks your life, but it's so worth it now xD
GOGO FANTA!
Since when has it been a massive rollercoaster? It's been an uphill of better and better achievements since 2007 for fantasy. Flash went through rookie -> win SL -> nothing for a year -> dominance -> disqualify out of 2 leagues -> dominance -> wrist injury -> dominance -> lose PL entirely on him going 0-2 -> now. This is a compliment to fantasy for being steady and hardworking btw, but its not a rollercoaster >_> Jangbi would be a rollercoaster.
On May 30 2012 20:01 Zona wrote: Kespa better wake up. If star players don't perform in BW or SC2, nobody's going to stay to watch whatever abomination this has become.
The fans who like BW won't stay. The fans who like the stars will start to fall away when the stars stop winning. The most extreme, loyal fans to each star will remain, but everyone else will lose interest as well.
-.- what's with the kneejerk reactions? That game was hardly an abomination. He had a BO loss to Jangbi then drops a TvT and suddenly it's the end of the world. If he loses the tiebreak then maybe you've got a leg to stand on.
Meh, I was talking about the Kespa scene in general.
And it ain't no kneejerk reaction...I've been giving this as much of a chance as I can.
No. This is totally kneejerk. What you are suggesting is that KESPA needs to do something to make sure the "Stars" get better treatment. Already went through one match fixing scandal... we do not need a "Star fixing" scandal.
My comment has nothing to do with suggesting that stars getting better treatment. I'm insulted that you drew that implication from my post.
I'm just commenting that it would be better for them to see sooner rather than later where their attempt to force such a transition on their fans is taking them.
A spectator competition depends on having fans. Kespa has many times treated its core fans poorly - suddenly holding finals in another fucking country, begging for fans to show up in the aftermath of the match-fixing scandal and then not being able to accommodate them, etc. And now - consider why fans still watch? Perhaps they enjoy BW? Well those fans aren't coming along. Perhaps they're more fans of the players rather than fans of BW? Well, even fans lose heart when their favorite stars stop winning (because the stars are now forced to play a game unfamiliar to them...)
On May 30 2012 20:34 J1.au wrote: I don't care how many rookies he slaughters, Flash still beats him in a Bo5.
That was so long ago looking at how flash couldn't even defend a vulture harassed like that makes me think this statement isn't true any more . On form Fantasy looks much stronger than slumping Flash.
On May 30 2012 20:35 altered wrote: well fantasy maybe looks so good right now because he had to play noobs. Lets see if he still wins ezpz when he has a real opponent.
On May 30 2012 20:34 J1.au wrote: I don't care how many rookies he slaughters, Flash still beats him in a Bo5.
That was so long ago looking at how flash couldn't even defend a vulture harassed like that makes me think this statement isn't true any more . On form Fantasy looks much stronger than slumping Flash.
On May 30 2012 20:34 J1.au wrote: I don't care how many rookies he slaughters, Flash still beats him in a Bo5.
Not today's Flash though. Today's Flash might not make it as far as getting a BO5 against Fantasy.
I hope Flash practices some BW, seriously.
It'd be terrible if he dropped out at the tiebreakers. And even Fantasy would arguably benefit if Flash advanced to face him in a series, so he'd get the opportunity to defeat him and finally stand alone on top.
On May 30 2012 20:33 wassbix wrote: FANTASY MY KING IVE WAITED SO LONG ; _ ;
Indeed, being a Fantasy fan is a massive rollercoaster that wreaks your life, but it's so worth it now xD
GOGO FANTA!
Since when has it been a massive rollercoaster? It's been an uphill of better and better achievements since 2007 for fantasy. Flash went through rookie -> win SL -> nothing for a year -> dominance -> disqualify out of 2 leagues -> dominance -> wrist injury -> dominance -> lose PL entirely on him going 0-2 -> now. This is a compliment to fantasy for being steady and hardworking btw, but its not a rollercoaster >_> Jangbi would be a rollercoaster.
All the games in SPL he had won but refused to expand. All the wacky builds that didn't work when he would've won had he played standard. Self ownage that tears your soul... but the next game he does everything perfect. And repeat the cycle.
This was long ago (2 years), but this recent stabilisation of his form is not the 'normal' way of things. Usually he'd just reach this plateau for a short while with dropping games in between.
On May 30 2012 20:33 wassbix wrote: FANTASY MY KING IVE WAITED SO LONG ; _ ;
Indeed, being a Fantasy fan is a massive rollercoaster that wreaks your life, but it's so worth it now xD
GOGO FANTA!
Since when has it been a massive rollercoaster? It's been an uphill of better and better achievements since 2007 for fantasy. Flash went through rookie -> win SL -> nothing for a year -> dominance -> disqualify out of 2 leagues -> dominance -> wrist injury -> dominance -> lose PL entirely on him going 0-2 -> now. This is a compliment to fantasy for being steady and hardworking btw, but its not a rollercoaster >_> Jangbi would be a rollercoaster.
When Fantasy fails he tends to spectacularly fail and then he tries to hang onto the game for dear life and as a fan its really soulcrushing 09 OSL RO4 vs JD was the saddest and most rage inducing BW set ever for example
On May 30 2012 20:34 J1.au wrote: I don't care how many rookies he slaughters, Flash still beats him in a Bo5.
That was so long ago looking at how flash couldn't even defend a vulture harassed like that makes me think this statement isn't true any more . On form Fantasy looks much stronger than slumping Flash.
You are not a true fan!
What made and still makes Flash and Fantasy good players is their work ethic, both of them will be fine if they keep their work ethic and devotion to the profession. If anything historically fantasy's had way better mentorship and coaching in TvT, just look at their last BO5, fantasy got better OP builds 4/5 times and flash won through sheer tenacity.
On May 30 2012 20:40 Kipsate wrote: Hope Flash advances so he can get destroyed by Fantasy and that Fantasy can claim his rightfull position once and for all
either that or Jangbi vs Fantasy I guess but we had that already.
On May 30 2012 20:13 Zona wrote: Well TBH I do expect to be pleased with the outcome of this OSL...since Fantasy is my favorite player and he doesn't seem to have deteriorated in BW like many other players have.
But one thing to keep in mind is that Kespa gave up one of their few revenue sources (league licensing fees) when agreeing to transition to SC2 (and submitting to Blizzard). I'm just wondering how much of their plan is grounded upon false hope.
League licensing fees ?
Kespa charged OGN (and MBC, back then) to broadcast PL. The way other leagues (nba, nfl, nhl, etc) charge broadcasters (espn, etc) to broadcast games.
Blizzard thought that nobody should be able charge fees and sued...surely you remember that incident? Kespa won that round and Blizzard backed off, but with the deal with Blizzard for SC2, it was a hollow victory.
Since there are no gate receipts, hardly any merchandising, and so on, it was one of the few revenue sources that Kespa had. And right now there's no outside sponsor either - tving is a CJ/OGN company, while SK sports is an in-kespa sponsor of PL.
On May 30 2012 20:33 wassbix wrote: FANTASY MY KING IVE WAITED SO LONG ; _ ;
Indeed, being a Fantasy fan is a massive rollercoaster that wreaks your life, but it's so worth it now xD
GOGO FANTA!
Since when has it been a massive rollercoaster? It's been an uphill of better and better achievements since 2007 for fantasy. Flash went through rookie -> win SL -> nothing for a year -> dominance -> disqualify out of 2 leagues -> dominance -> wrist injury -> dominance -> lose PL entirely on him going 0-2 -> now. This is a compliment to fantasy for being steady and hardworking btw, but its not a rollercoaster >_> Jangbi would be a rollercoaster.
When Fantasy fails he tends to spectacularly fail and then he tries to hang onto the game for dear life and as a fan its really soulcrushing 09 OSL RO4 vs JD was the saddest and most rage inducing BW set ever for example
All of his failures were trial and error periods for his own innovative builds imo, alot of them didn't work out for sure but i've only ever felt that he was in trouble once in his career and that was at the end of 2010-2011 proleague. Just a bump in the road.
On May 30 2012 20:33 wassbix wrote: FANTASY MY KING IVE WAITED SO LONG ; _ ;
Indeed, being a Fantasy fan is a massive rollercoaster that wreaks your life, but it's so worth it now xD
GOGO FANTA!
Since when has it been a massive rollercoaster? It's been an uphill of better and better achievements since 2007 for fantasy. Flash went through rookie -> win SL -> nothing for a year -> dominance -> disqualify out of 2 leagues -> dominance -> wrist injury -> dominance -> lose PL entirely on him going 0-2 -> now. This is a compliment to fantasy for being steady and hardworking btw, but its not a rollercoaster >_> Jangbi would be a rollercoaster.
When Fantasy fails he tends to spectacularly fail and then he tries to hang onto the game for dear life and as a fan its really soulcrushing 09 OSL RO4 vs JD was the saddest and most rage inducing BW set ever for example
All of his failures were trial and error periods for his own innovative builds imo, alot of them didn't work out for sure but i've only ever felt that he was in trouble once in his career and that was at the end of 2010-2011 proleague. Just a bump in the road.
Exactly... when Flash "fails" it's okay because he's "god" but when Fantasy "fails" he's a scrub who needs to learn to gg sooner.
Fantasy is better than Flash right now. Was that true 12 months ago? No. 6 months ago I would say they were even.
After PL final, Fantasy now has the leg up on Flash. Fantasy could make his 3rd straight OSL final (just like Flash) and if he wins and goes 2-1 (just like Flash did) I would say Fantasy would be #1 right now.
On May 30 2012 20:33 wassbix wrote: FANTASY MY KING IVE WAITED SO LONG ; _ ;
Indeed, being a Fantasy fan is a massive rollercoaster that wreaks your life, but it's so worth it now xD
GOGO FANTA!
Since when has it been a massive rollercoaster? It's been an uphill of better and better achievements since 2007 for fantasy. Flash went through rookie -> win SL -> nothing for a year -> dominance -> disqualify out of 2 leagues -> dominance -> wrist injury -> dominance -> lose PL entirely on him going 0-2 -> now. This is a compliment to fantasy for being steady and hardworking btw, but its not a rollercoaster >_> Jangbi would be a rollercoaster.
When Fantasy fails he tends to spectacularly fail and then he tries to hang onto the game for dear life and as a fan its really soulcrushing 09 OSL RO4 vs JD was the saddest and most rage inducing BW set ever for example
All of his failures were trial and error periods for his own innovative builds imo, alot of them didn't work out for sure but i've only ever felt that he was in trouble once in his career and that was at the end of 2010-2011 proleague. Just a bump in the road.
Exactly... when Flash "fails" it's okay because he's "god" but when Fantasy "fails" he's a scrub who needs to learn to gg sooner.
Fantasy is better than Flash right now. Was that true 12 months ago? No. 6 months ago I would say they were even.
After PL final, Fantasy now has the leg up on Flash. Fantasy could make his 3rd straight OSL final (just like Flash) and if he wins and goes 2-1 (just like Flash did) I would say Fantasy would be #1 right now.
fantasy is just streaky, all of his loses were streaky. I don't think anyone ever calls fantasy a scrub the first time he loses out of a winning streak.
On May 30 2012 20:57 Caihead wrote: I really dont understand what soulkey's control on that zergling attack was, he had more than enough zerglings to win :<
I was definitely surprised at how many of hyvaa's drones survived
On May 30 2012 20:57 Caihead wrote: I really dont understand what soulkey's control on that zergling attack was, he had more than enough zerglings to win :<
I was definitely surprised at how many of hyvaa's drones survived
He just A moved his bottom group and like 10 lings were pathing behind the minerals when he could have easily killed the sunken for additional surface area =_=
On May 30 2012 20:57 Caihead wrote: I really dont understand what soulkey's control on that zergling attack was, he had more than enough zerglings to win :<
I was definitely surprised at how many of hyvaa's drones survived
He just A moved his bottom group and like 10 lings were pathing behind the minerals when he could have easily killed the sunken for additional surface area =_=
The only conclusion I can come to is too much sctoo and not sc bw.
On May 30 2012 20:57 rebdomine wrote: Mother of tiebreaks.
Why do I have the feeling we're gonna need tiebreaks for all groups? >.<
Same here, it feels like the stars are aligning just for this haha.
If you think about it, it was destined to happen. Just like last OSL was destined to be Legend of the Fall, this time we will enjoy OSL to the fullest, which means massive tiebreakers in ALL groups. SoO will fight valiantly, like Fantasy did, but storyline is very hard to fight.
On May 30 2012 20:57 Caihead wrote: I really dont understand what soulkey's control on that zergling attack was, he had more than enough zerglings to win :<
I was definitely surprised at how many of hyvaa's drones survived
He just A moved his bottom group and like 10 lings were pathing behind the minerals when he could have easily killed the sunken for additional surface area =_=
The only conclusion I can come to is too much sctoo and not sc bw.
Playing too much SC2 doesn't make you forget that microing is better than A-moving.
Also I called 5 out of 6 games right in Group C! Shame about some of the others...
Well the ZvZ tiebreakers have a chance to last forever. Flash should be able to take his tiebreakers. Who knows about group B...they could last awhile too, maybe.
On May 30 2012 21:04 Zona wrote: Well the ZvZ tiebreakers have a chance to last forever. Flash should be able to take his tiebreakers. Who knows about group B...they could last awhile too, maybe.
I wonder, are they really gonna start the tiebreakers at 7:30 PM? Because each of those can take hours to conclude. What do they do if it last until 3 AM?
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
On May 30 2012 21:05 GeLaar wrote: I wonder, are they really gonna start the tiebreakers at 7:30 PM? Because each of those can take hours to conclude. What do they do if it last until 3 AM?
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
Good god let's not have those again, the tiebreakers in the other group with fantasy and pure on the same day were way better
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
On May 30 2012 21:04 Zona wrote: Well the ZvZ tiebreakers have a chance to last forever. Flash should be able to take his tiebreakers. Who knows about group B...they could last awhile too, maybe.
Infinite OSL ftw!!!
Casters are joking about 3 tier breakers being an Overnight package.
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
The commentators were so bushed they started crying for earlier gg's LOL
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
On May 30 2012 21:04 Zona wrote: Well the ZvZ tiebreakers have a chance to last forever. Flash should be able to take his tiebreakers. Who knows about group B...they could last awhile too, maybe.
Infinite OSL ftw!!!
Casters are joking about 3 tier breakers being an Overnight package.
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
It was gogo vs shine vs Effort vs Effort's mouse
On May 30 2012 21:09 Sawamura wrote: Wait are tie breakers really that long o.o ?
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
The commentators were so bushed the started crying for ealier gg's LOL
People coming to the studio after seeing the games on TV were funny as hell.
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
I was also watching live, and I recall I enjoyed the event a lot But maybe if I read my comments from that thread, I'd find something else, who knows :D
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
It was gogo vs shine vs Effort vs Effort's mouse
You don't get what I mean. That was another time, a boring 1h15+ min TvT with noone attacking, the lr thread went crazy and recommended the game at like 95% to troll VOD watchers^^
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
It was gogo vs shine vs Effort vs Effort's mouse
You don't get what I mean. That was another time, a boring 1h15+ min TvT with noone attacking, the lr thread went crazy and recommended the game at like 95% to troll VOD watchers^^
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
It was gogo vs shine vs Effort vs Effort's mouse
You don't get what I mean. That was another time, a boring 1h15+ min TvT with noone attacking, the lr thread went crazy and recommended the game at like 95% to troll VOD watchers^^
Oh I believe I was also one who voted in that troll poll muahahahahahaha...
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
I was also watching live, and I recall I enjoyed the event a lot But maybe if I read my comments from that thread, I'd find something else, who knows :D
I think people enjoyed the people who came down by car to watch the end more than the games in themselves^^
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
It was gogo vs shine vs Effort vs Effort's mouse
You don't get what I mean. That was another time, a boring 1h15+ min TvT with noone attacking, the lr thread went crazy and recommended the game at like 95% to troll VOD watchers^^
Oh I believe I was also one who voted in that troll poll muahahahahahaha...
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
It was gogo vs shine vs Effort vs Effort's mouse
You don't get what I mean. That was another time, a boring 1h15+ min TvT with noone attacking, the lr thread went crazy and recommended the game at like 95% to troll VOD watchers^^
Oh I believe I was also one who voted in that troll poll muahahahahahaha...
On May 30 2012 21:04 SkelA wrote: Either way we MUST have 4 tiebreakers lol . I just hope we get something similar to the tiebreakers with Gogo, Effort and Shine.
If you read the lr thread of those tiebreakers, you might change your wish... Those games were incredibly bad.
I was there.
They were...interesting, to say the least.
I wasn't lring but I watched all the vods. I feel for you. Were you there for Shine[name] vs Canata ?
It was gogo vs shine vs Effort vs Effort's mouse
You don't get what I mean. That was another time, a boring 1h15+ min TvT with noone attacking, the lr thread went crazy and recommended the game at like 95% to troll VOD watchers^^
Oh I believe I was also one who voted in that troll poll muahahahahahaha...
which game was that
This plus the rematch. Don't watch, you head will hurt.
On May 30 2012 21:20 Zona wrote: Well for those of you talking about all of the recent ZvP's, keep in mind the ones where Protoss opened 2gate and Zerg was just responding to that
Horangee managed to own two protosses with a single canceled cannon D: Can't help but notice that the commentators are extatic about group D being resolved now xD
On May 30 2012 21:19 Anomek wrote: Can someone explain to me how almost every ZvP I've seen lately is 2base prot dies to 3base zerg with hydras? I'm BW noob, but that looks suspicious.
Well its partly because its hard to hold and its easy to execute for zerg and than go into 5 hatch from there. But mostly because Ps die because they refuse to get more than one cannon and they die like n00bs over and over. Horang2 did actually get another cannon but he canceled it lol.
On May 30 2012 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Big surprise, after being roundly BM'd during the lottery Soo fires up and 3-0's his group. Why poke the bear?
Zero went 3-0, actually
That means Soo (2nd in D) might get matched up against Fantasy (1st in C)! Yikes
Horang2's scouting was just.... No words for that. That hydra den was fucking shining and open for everybody's eye. How could you not go and scout it? Seriously?
On May 30 2012 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Big surprise, after being roundly BM'd during the lottery Soo fires up and 3-0's his group. Why poke the bear?
Zero went 3-0, actually
That means Soo (2nd in D) might get matched up against Fantasy (1st in C)! Yikes
Haha, I knew somebody would snap me before I could quickly edit my post - serves me right for not double-checking my facts, but hey, it's late and I'm lazy.
On May 30 2012 21:19 Anomek wrote: Can someone explain to me how almost every ZvP I've seen lately is 2base prot dies to 3base zerg with hydras? I'm BW noob, but that looks suspicious.
Well its partly because its hard to hold and its easy to execute for zerg. But mostly because Ps refuse to get more than one cannon and they die like n00bs over and over. Horang2 did actually get another cannon but he canceled it lol.
Don't you need to scout it and put down ~4-5 cannons in order to hold it anyway? That extra second cannon wouldn't seem to add a whole lot of safety?
The sair is supposed to be timed so that it scouts it on its way to their base.
also: Flash will be fine, he should be better at tiebreaker games than Action/Bogus, do you really think Action or Bogus will 2-0 before Flash does? I think not
On May 30 2012 21:20 arbiter_md wrote: So, stork will remain in history as the one with 100 wins OSL. He didn't want more.
along with boxer and July
well, the comment implied exactly 100 wins
but given that I fully expect OGN to count whatever SC2 OSL they hold to be the same continuation of the BW OSL, they'll still continue to add to the count
On May 30 2012 21:19 Anomek wrote: Can someone explain to me how almost every ZvP I've seen lately is 2base prot dies to 3base zerg with hydras? I'm BW noob, but that looks suspicious.
Well its partly because its hard to hold and its easy to execute for zerg. But mostly because Ps refuse to get more than one cannon and they die like n00bs over and over. Horang2 did actually get another cannon but he canceled it lol.
That's what my untrained BW eyes see Thanks for response
those results have no sense for me at all i really like new BW+SC2 format, but i guess all we gonna get from upcoming seasons is really weak gameplay from BW progamers. SC2 will grow for sure, but level of bw games is so fuc***g low. i'm sad and sorry for stork
On May 30 2012 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Big surprise, after being roundly BM'd during the lottery Soo fires up and 3-0's his group. Why poke the bear?
Zero went 3-0, actually
That means Soo (2nd in D) might get matched up against Fantasy (1st in C)! Yikes
3/4 for today, sadface since Group D would be most entertaining out of all 4. Oh well, can't be greedy with ONLY 3 tiebreaker groups, each with the potential for going on and on and on and on and my mouse broke regame plz.
On May 30 2012 21:28 alffla wrote: .....god why -__-- oh well. .jangbi is still in this osl right
Yea. Looks like the best we can hope for is a Jangbi vs Fantasy finals if Flash doesn't make it out
I for one wouldn't mind some fresh blood in the finals. Shine, Bogus, Mini, Soulkey and Zero are all great players that give the time to prepare for a Bo5 finals could show fantastic games. Fantasy, Jangbi & Flash have their work cut out for them in this Ro8
On May 30 2012 21:28 alffla wrote: .....god why -__-- oh well. .jangbi is still in this osl right
Yea. Looks like the best we can hope for is a Jangbi vs Fantasy finals if Flash doesn't make it out
Am...am I going to have to defend Flash, against a Flash fan... ...despite being a Fantasy fan?
Fine.
Flash should 2-0 his group before Action/Bogus. In fact I think it's like 90%+ that Flash will make it out. Why? a) Action should basically never win vs Flash. Not just because Flash is awesome at TvZ - Flash probably annihilated Action so much in practice that Action has PTSD and will have a very hard time taking a game at all. Action had the position of his dreams last game and he failed miserably - usually Action does not fail in lategame like that with his ZvT, and I think he did mostly because it was against Flash b) Action should win against Bogus at least some of the time. Not just because Action lategame ZvT is good, but because Action will only have to prep ZvT while Bogus will have to practice 2 matchups, one of which is vs Flash c) Bogus won't be able to plan as well in tiebreakers and won't necessarily have the edge he did here. d) If there's an environment that favors on-the-fly dynamic play, it's tiebreakers, and if there's a player that embodies unplanned-yet-solid play it's Flash.
As a sidenote I hate fair-weather fans (you know who you are). Fantasy has a long history of awesome coupled with spectacular self-inflicted failure; Flash has a history that goes somewhere between somewhat awesome and fucking awesome despite injury. Fantasy finally gains the consistency and Flash starts faltering a little and suddenly the sky is falling? Screw you.
so as race distribution we have 4 zergs, 1 terran and 1 protoss qualified. The last two places can be taken by a maximum of one zerg, one protoss and up to two terrans
I find it outright disrespectful to the other players if you blame SC2 on your favourite player's losses. Last time I looked everyone had to play BW and SC2.
I didn't notice just how good he is atm. 10 game winning streak, He is #1 in ELO with a new personal best of 2330 and has broken NADA's and Savior's ELO peaks. Plus he is dominating the OSL (champion, then final, this season undefeated) and he has dominated in Proleague.
On May 30 2012 21:28 alffla wrote: .....god why -__-- oh well. .jangbi is still in this osl right
Yea. Looks like the best we can hope for is a Jangbi vs Fantasy finals if Flash doesn't make it out
Am...am I going to have to defend Flash, against a Flash fan... ...despite being a Fantasy fan?
Fine.
Flash should 2-0 his group before Action/Bogus. In fact I think it's like 90%+ that Flash will make it out. Why? a) Action should basically never win vs Flash. Not just because Flash is awesome at TvZ - Flash probably annihilated Action so much in practice that Action has PTSD and will have a very hard time taking a game at all. Action had the position of his dreams last game and he failed miserably - usually Action does not fail in lategame like that with his ZvT, and I think he did mostly because it was against Flash b) Action should win against Bogus at least some of the time. Not just because Action lategame ZvT is good, but because Action will only have to prep ZvT while Bogus will have to practice 2 matchups, one of which is vs Flash c) Bogus won't be able to plan as well in tiebreakers and won't necessarily have the edge he did here. d) If there's an environment that favors on-the-fly dynamic play, it's tiebreakers, and if there's a player that embodies unplanned-yet-solid play it's Flash.
As a sidenote I hate fair-weather fans (you know who you are). Fantasy has a long history of awesome coupled with spectacular self-inflicted failure; Flash has a history that goes somewhere between somewhat awesome and fucking awesome despite injury. Fantasy finally gains the consistency and Flash starts faltering a little and suddenly the sky is falling? Screw you.
Haven't I already said Flash / Fantasy will be fine because they are good in the long run because of their work ethic? I prefaced it with a big IF flash doesn't make it out. If he does we would have so many good quarter - semi final possibilities, that's how big a presence the TBLS are, they force players to step up their game and produce exciting games in BO >=3 situations, in BO1's players just cheese the fuck out of them with prepared strategies.
Yeah i'm not really worried about the tiebreaker. Flash'll be fine, you don't just forget how to play BW when you've played for as long and as well as he has. Dropping a TvT is not a big deal, he's been doing it on and off for ages. People need to stop acting like he had a 100% winrate prior to sc2.
On May 30 2012 22:26 Agrajag wrote: Although I'm rooting for Flash, Zero or Jangbi to win, I've got a bad feeling that Soo will take the trophy.
If soulkey and flash don't get out of the tiebreakers I can't see anyone stopping fantasy. SoO would need to avoid ZvT completely to have a shot.
On May 30 2012 22:31 Scarecrow wrote: Yeah i'm not really worried about the tiebreaker. Flash'll be fine, you don't just forget how to play BW when you've played for as long and as well as he has. Dropping a TvT is not a big deal, he's been doing it on and off for ages. People need to stop acting like he had a 100% winrate prior to sc2.
Actually I have a sneaking suspicion about Shine v Fanta finals, unless they meet before that. Shine can dominate anyone in ZvZ, and we have loads of zergs around. Moreover, he can get a rookie from group B, whoever that is, and I'm quite confident he can beat them as well. So it's only Jangbi, Flash and Fanta he has to avoid.
But just think of Flash v Fanta semis.. or finals.. mouth-watering.
P.S. fantasy is on a fucking roll though. Easy group, granted, but he violated these rookies so hard it's not even funny.
The only chance soO has of winning this OSL is if Fantasy hyuks himself out of it before they can meet, which, given his current form, seems very unlikely. I can't imagine soO having any shot whatsoever at taking more than one game off Fanta =_= All in all, this is really Fantasy's championship to lose, he's been looking one step ahead of every other player in it so far. Jangbi is back to being okay but not amazing (plus the maps aren't nearly as good for PvT as they were last season), Soulkey seems to be hellbent on proving everyone who hailed him as the new best Zerg ever to be wrong, Stork is out, Zero is, well, Zero, and everyone else wasn't really a threat to Fantasy even before he decided to go HULK SMASH this season...
Not that this makes me sad in the slightest, as Fanta really is the most underrated and unlucky player in history of Starcraft.
On May 31 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote: Not that this makes me sad in the slightest, as Fanta really is the most underrated and unlucky player in history of Starcraft.
Fanta WAS underrated before his last OSL final, when he got 2nd final in a raw. That finals shut so many nonbelievers...
If we are talking about potential chances, my bets- -Flash is still in play and I dont see him losing ties, so he is still one of favorites to take gold. He doesnt sim to be so unbeatable thou. -Fantasy is a beast in BoX, Bo3 is the the only solid chance to beat him without trouble, as in Bo5 he is a nightmare for any oponent, and i remember only 1 series when he was beaten 3-1 (memorable semi vs Jeadong). Even during his slump he was capable of fight a incredible series versus many top players. -Jangbi...well, i underrestimated him last time, now i will not talk about his chances. He is just too big enigma. -Zero - not in form, still I will not discount him. Zero in top form is incredible -Soulkey - made Fantasy his favorite bitch in MSL, but in Bo5 he may have a difficulties. I dont see him being capable of beating Flash thou, not in Bo5 at last. His chances are good. -Soo - i have no idea, maybe if Fanta will die in Bo3 or semi and Flash will not make it through. -Shine - I see him heaving good chance if flash wont make it and he wont meet Fanta in Bo5.
Is this a reprise of the game that knocked Bisu out of the qualifiers?
Oh right, it's a reprise of 90% of the ZvP games played this year.
A drunken monkey could have seen that hydra bust coming, why can't Protosses add at least one extra cannon so they don't instantly lose critical games?
On May 30 2012 21:20 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Big surprise, after being roundly BM'd during the lottery Soo fires up and 3-0's his group. Why poke the bear?
Zero went 3-0, actually
That means Soo (2nd in D) might get matched up against Fantasy (1st in C)! Yikes
This could have been Stork vs Fantasy. Seriously, F this OSL.
On May 31 2012 01:34 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Oh god... if Flash doesn't get out this group...
Can't believe he lost that, how do tiebreakers work? All play against each other again?
All the players with the same record (second best after the winner of the group) play each other. If no-one wins both games, repeat. This means the tie breakers can in principle go to infinity.
On May 31 2012 01:34 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Oh god... if Flash doesn't get out this group...
Can't believe he lost that, how do tiebreakers work? All play against each other again?
All the players with the same record (second best after the winner of the group) play each other. If no-one wins both games, repeat. This means the tie breakers can in principle go to infinity.
Ah I get it, thanks. Flash should have the best chance to get out his group, as long as he beats Bogus. I don't see him losing against Action... pretty sure his last televised loss against a zerg was almost a year ago.
On May 31 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote: Not that this makes me sad in the slightest, as Fanta really is the most underrated and unlucky player in history of Starcraft.
Fanta WAS underrated before his last OSL final, when he got 2nd final in a raw. That finals shut so many nonbelievers...
If we are talking about potential chances, my bets- -Flash is still in play and I dont see him losing ties, so he is still one of favorites to take gold. He doesnt sim to be so unbeatable thou. -Fantasy is a beast in BoX, Bo3 is the the only solid chance to beat him without trouble, as in Bo5 he is a nightmare for any oponent, and i remember only 1 series when he was beaten 3-1 (memorable semi vs Jeadong). Even during his slump he was capable of fight a incredible series versus many top players. -Jangbi...well, i underrestimated him last time, now i will not talk about his chances. He is just too big enigma. -Zero - not in form, still I will not discount him. Zero in top form is incredible -Soulkey - made Fantasy his favorite bitch in MSL, but in Bo5 he may have a difficulties. I dont see him being capable of beating Flash thou, not in Bo5 at last. His chances are good. -Soo - i have no idea, maybe if Fanta will die in Bo3 or semi and Flash will not make it through. -Shine - I see him heaving good chance if flash wont make it and he wont meet Fanta in Bo5.
Let me lay out the Fantasy line: 2008- The next Terran in the line of SKT comes forward. Makes it to the OSL finals and loses. He'll dominate next year. 2009- Okay he lost in another finals, but it's Jaedong, so it's understandable. Later in 2009- Wow, he just can't win against Jaedong, maybe he peaked. 2010- Flash is pretty good, Fantasy definitely hit his peak a year ago. Late 2010- HOLY SHIT!!! Fantasy din't hit his peak 2 years ago, he's pretty awesome. First half of 2011- Wow never mind. This is literally the worst play I've ever seen. Really Fantasy? The B-Team? Late 2011 til Now- Fantasy is probably the best BW player in the world right now. He really got his shit together. To bad BW is in it's death throws.
Just watched the VODs. That hyvaa vs Soulkey made me really hate the volatility of ZvZ Poor Soulkey he looked like he didn't want to gg before leaving.
On May 31 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote: Not that this makes me sad in the slightest, as Fanta really is the most underrated and unlucky player in history of Starcraft.
Fanta WAS underrated before his last OSL final, when he got 2nd final in a raw. That finals shut so many nonbelievers...
If we are talking about potential chances, my bets- -Flash is still in play and I dont see him losing ties, so he is still one of favorites to take gold. He doesnt sim to be so unbeatable thou. -Fantasy is a beast in BoX, Bo3 is the the only solid chance to beat him without trouble, as in Bo5 he is a nightmare for any oponent, and i remember only 1 series when he was beaten 3-1 (memorable semi vs Jeadong). Even during his slump he was capable of fight a incredible series versus many top players. -Jangbi...well, i underrestimated him last time, now i will not talk about his chances. He is just too big enigma. -Zero - not in form, still I will not discount him. Zero in top form is incredible -Soulkey - made Fantasy his favorite bitch in MSL, but in Bo5 he may have a difficulties. I dont see him being capable of beating Flash thou, not in Bo5 at last. His chances are good. -Soo - i have no idea, maybe if Fanta will die in Bo3 or semi and Flash will not make it through. -Shine - I see him heaving good chance if flash wont make it and he wont meet Fanta in Bo5.
Let me lay out the Fantasy line: 2008- The next Terran in the line of SKT comes forward. Makes it to the OSL finals and loses. He'll dominate next year. 2009- Okay he lost in another finals, but it's Jaedong, so it's understandable. Later in 2009- Wow, he just can't win against Jaedong, maybe he peaked. 2010- Flash is pretty good, Fantasy definitely hit his peak a year ago. Late 2010- HOLY SHIT!!! Fantasy din't hit his peak 2 years ago, he's pretty awesome. First half of 2011- Wow never mind. This is literally the worst play I've ever seen. Really Fantasy? The B-Team? Late 2011 til Now- Fantasy is probably the best BW player in the world right now. He really got his shit together. To bad BW is in it's death throws.
Fantasy were allways considered second to flash allways till the PL finals, maybe fantasy had better tvp than flash but flashes tvt (and tvz especially) were still considered better. Still, counting flash out is dangerous, he's gone into rape and pillage mode after getting smacked on before, he can do it again.
really cool play from fantasy, using old school build and really making the most of it.Although the loser kinda lost his nerves I think. his face most of the game was like yawn rape ez bring me teh carriers
On May 31 2012 00:20 Sethronu wrote: Not that this makes me sad in the slightest, as Fanta really is the most underrated and unlucky player in history of Starcraft.
Fanta WAS underrated before his last OSL final, when he got 2nd final in a raw. That finals shut so many nonbelievers...
If we are talking about potential chances, my bets- -Flash is still in play and I dont see him losing ties, so he is still one of favorites to take gold. He doesnt sim to be so unbeatable thou. -Fantasy is a beast in BoX, Bo3 is the the only solid chance to beat him without trouble, as in Bo5 he is a nightmare for any oponent, and i remember only 1 series when he was beaten 3-1 (memorable semi vs Jeadong). Even during his slump he was capable of fight a incredible series versus many top players. -Jangbi...well, i underrestimated him last time, now i will not talk about his chances. He is just too big enigma. -Zero - not in form, still I will not discount him. Zero in top form is incredible -Soulkey - made Fantasy his favorite bitch in MSL, but in Bo5 he may have a difficulties. I dont see him being capable of beating Flash thou, not in Bo5 at last. His chances are good. -Soo - i have no idea, maybe if Fanta will die in Bo3 or semi and Flash will not make it through. -Shine - I see him heaving good chance if flash wont make it and he wont meet Fanta in Bo5.
Let me lay out the Fantasy line: 2008- The next Terran in the line of SKT comes forward. Makes it to the OSL finals and loses. He'll dominate next year. 2009- Okay he lost in another finals, but it's Jaedong, so it's understandable. Later in 2009- Wow, he just can't win against Jaedong, maybe he peaked. 2010- Flash is pretty good, Fantasy definitely hit his peak a year ago. Late 2010- HOLY SHIT!!! Fantasy din't hit his peak 2 years ago, he's pretty awesome. First half of 2011- Wow never mind. This is literally the worst play I've ever seen. Really Fantasy? The B-Team? Late 2011 til Now- Fantasy is probably the best BW player in the world right now. He really got his shit together. To bad BW is in it's death throws.
Fantasy were allways considered second to flash allways till the PL finals, maybe fantasy had better tvp than flash but flashes tvt (and tvz especially) were still considered better.
That's the thing about Fantasy, though. Everyone knows he's a good player, and his play is very stylistic and most of the time fun to watch - but he never really got the recognition or attention he deserves. There's been like, dozens of players who aren't nearly as hard-working, skilled, or fun to watch as Fantasy who were discussed and hyped more than him. Just take the last OSL finals - sure, Jangbi's was a cute storyline as well, but what makes him so much more special than Fantasy? And yet, he's had like ten times the support of Fanta's. Or the last PL final - he was literally the guy who brought SKT there, and yet Bisu grabs the spotlight once again. I can't help but feel bad for him, really. :p
On May 30 2012 15:15 J1.au wrote: Anyone picking Bogus is scared Flash will beat their favourite players.
Yo mean everyone picking Bogus is using their head to analysis the players rather than using their fanboyism doing their picking.
Exactly how is picking Bogus supposed to qualify as good analysis of the players? Bogus has been struggling HORRIBLY in the Terran vs Terran match-up.
Prior to this match, Flash was 4-1 since the break against tough competition, 10-3 in the past 12 months, 56-17 in the past 24 months, highest ELO vs Terran and highest ELO peak vs Terran.
Bogus is not even top 25 ELO vs Terran or top 25 ELO peak, HAD NOT WON A SINGLE GAME vs TERRAN SINCE THE BREAK (0-6), 5-7 past 12 months, 13-15 past 24 months. Head-to-head he was 0-3 against Flash. Even if we look at the map, Bogus had only a 2-4 record on Sniper Ridge compared to Flash's 4-1 record.
There is absolutely nothing there to indicate that Bogus had a good chance of victory.
Terran so broken it takes another Terran to beat one. Especially at Flash's level. TvZ? TvP? Bring on those Ultras and Goons, I got 2000 free mines bitches!
Why are people saying fantasy is underrated? Protege of Boxer / iloveoov / SKT coaching. Early and consistent deep tournament results against TBLS. Just being the terran under boxer / iloveoov already got him more hype than flash ever did until flash won multiple golds. As far as people making fun of him goes, it's because he was overrated and made eccentric builds and refused to GG (which are characteristic of lesser players, which is why the comparison is funny). He hit a bump in 2011 but so do all players, fantasy fans (i'm one of them) should stop pretending they are cheering for an underdog when he's clearly got the most resources of any terran in the league teammate /practice partner wise, coaching wise, and resources wise.
On May 30 2012 14:44 bowen888 wrote: Bogus/ Fantasy/hyvaa/Soo You heard it here first!!!
lol the anti-prediction to my prediction
lol seems like 4/4 for me.. hehe
augh how anyone could be happy with Soo winning and having no stork in an OSL is beyond me, I'm an action fan and i like bogus but same idea with flash being out of the OSL. WHY?
On May 30 2012 15:15 J1.au wrote: Anyone picking Bogus is scared Flash will beat their favourite players.
Yo mean everyone picking Bogus is using their head to analysis the players rather than using their fanboyism doing their picking.
Exactly how is picking Bogus supposed to qualify as good analysis of the players? Bogus has been struggling HORRIBLY in the Terran vs Terran match-up.
Prior to this match, Flash was 4-1 since the break against tough competition, 10-3 in the past 12 months, 56-17 in the past 24 months, highest ELO vs Terran and highest ELO peak vs Terran.
Bogus is not even top 25 ELO vs Terran or top 25 ELO peak, HAD NOT WON A SINGLE GAME vs TERRAN SINCE THE BREAK (0-6), 5-7 past 12 months, 13-15 past 24 months. Head-to-head he was 0-3 against Flash. Even if we look at the map, Bogus had only a 2-4 record on Sniper Ridge compared to Flash's 4-1 record.
There is absolutely nothing there to indicate that Bogus had a good chance of victory.
Pretty sure he meant analyzing this one game itself, not whatever it is your doing.
Also, you seem upset.
In addition that's what makes brood war great. Games aren't played on paper, or by the fans, anything can happen, and much to the dismay of Flash and JD fans, things do happen occasionally. Remember when even at the (or one of) the peaks of Flash's career, he lost like 5,6, or 7 consecutive ace matches, most (all?) to terrans? He was still the best overall player, but players can practice and plan accordingly and outplay Flash. He's just human after all. What's the big deal? He's not even eliminated yet.
On May 30 2012 14:44 bowen888 wrote: Bogus/ Fantasy/hyvaa/Soo You heard it here first!!!
lol the anti-prediction to my prediction
lol seems like 4/4 for me.. hehe
augh how anyone could be happy with Soo winning and having no stork in an OSL is beyond me, I'm an action fan and i like bogus but same idea with flash being out of the OSL. WHY?
Stork taunited Soo confidently at the ceremony and lost (SoO cited it as dismissive but motivating). He 2 gated zero and lost. He's planted the seeds of his own defeat.
Would I prefer an OSL with Stork instead of SoO? About a thousand times over, yes. But OSLs aren't popularity contests.
On May 30 2012 15:15 J1.au wrote: Anyone picking Bogus is scared Flash will beat their favourite players.
Yo mean everyone picking Bogus is using their head to analysis the players rather than using their fanboyism doing their picking.
Exactly how is picking Bogus supposed to qualify as good analysis of the players? Bogus has been struggling HORRIBLY in the Terran vs Terran match-up.
Prior to this match, Flash was 4-1 since the break against tough competition, 10-3 in the past 12 months, 56-17 in the past 24 months, highest ELO vs Terran and highest ELO peak vs Terran.
Bogus is not even top 25 ELO vs Terran or top 25 ELO peak, HAD NOT WON A SINGLE GAME vs TERRAN SINCE THE BREAK (0-6), 5-7 past 12 months, 13-15 past 24 months. Head-to-head he was 0-3 against Flash. Even if we look at the map, Bogus had only a 2-4 record on Sniper Ridge compared to Flash's 4-1 record.
There is absolutely nothing there to indicate that Bogus had a good chance of victory.
Your just sore that your favourite player lost...Grow up!
On May 31 2012 10:32 Caihead wrote: Why are people saying fantasy is underrated? Protege of Boxer / iloveoov / SKT coaching. Early and consistent deep tournament results against TBLS. Just being the terran under boxer / iloveoov already got him more hype than flash ever did until flash won multiple golds. As far as people making fun of him goes, it's because he was overrated and made eccentric builds and refused to GG (which are characteristic of lesser players, which is why the comparison is funny). He hit a bump in 2011 but so do all players, fantasy fans (i'm one of them) should stop pretending they are cheering for an underdog when he's clearly got the most resources of any terran in the league teammate /practice partner wise, coaching wise, and resources wise.
Fantasy has never been put on the same level as Bisu or Stork, nor considered Code S, despite far better SL results than both and sometimes better PL results. Only recently did he get 1st rank on the power rank. He has NEVER lost a PL post-season game and has come up big in the biggest moments. He easily won against Stork but wasn't considered the favorite in the next season, maybe not even in the top 3. People, for whatever reason, have never looked at Fantasy in the same light as others like TBLS. Add in people saying his success is only because of Oov and Boxer and you get a lot of fans who do think he is underrated.
Fantasy is a great player. I used to be the biggest anti-fan of his, I still kinda wanna see him fail, but now I have no choice but to admit that he really is awesome. Plus, he has less annoying fanboys than Flash, so I'll call him superior at every turn I can
^_^
edit: But don't think this means that he didn't luck out in beating Stork 3-0 with superior preparation and inferior SKILLS because obv~
On May 31 2012 10:32 Caihead wrote: Why are people saying fantasy is underrated? Protege of Boxer / iloveoov / SKT coaching. Early and consistent deep tournament results against TBLS. Just being the terran under boxer / iloveoov already got him more hype than flash ever did until flash won multiple golds. As far as people making fun of him goes, it's because he was overrated and made eccentric builds and refused to GG (which are characteristic of lesser players, which is why the comparison is funny). He hit a bump in 2011 but so do all players, fantasy fans (i'm one of them) should stop pretending they are cheering for an underdog when he's clearly got the most resources of any terran in the league teammate /practice partner wise, coaching wise, and resources wise.
Fantasy has never been put on the same level as Bisu or Stork, nor considered Code S, despite far better SL results than both and sometimes better PL results. Only recently did he get 1st rank on the power rank. He has NEVER lost a PL post-season game and has come up big in the biggest moments. He easily won against Stork but wasn't considered the favorite in the next season, maybe not even in the top 3. People, for whatever reason, have never looked at Fantasy in the same light as others like TBLS. Add in people saying his success is only because of Oov and Boxer and you get a lot of fans who do think he is underrated.
don't forget the fact that in TL probably most of skt1 fans are bisu fanboys in the first place. how can he get the recognition he truly deserves when even his team fans failed to acknowledge that?
On May 31 2012 13:34 Ryo wrote: Nah, Shine can't beat Fantasy. Fantasy's only competitor is Jangbi, as long as Jangbi continues to think he's destined to win the last OSL.
You're grossly underestimating flash if you think Fantasy's just gonna walk over him in a Bo5. No way bogus is beating flash twice in a row and action has spent too long getting mauled in practice.
On May 31 2012 13:34 Ryo wrote: Nah, Shine can't beat Fantasy. Fantasy's only competitor is Jangbi, as long as Jangbi continues to think he's destined to win the last OSL.
You're grossly underestimating flash if you think Fantasy's just gonna walk over him in a Bo5. No way bogus is beating flash twice in a row and action has spent too long getting mauled in practice.
I never said Flash wouldn't get past the Ro16, or the Ro8 for that matter. Although if he does win the tiebreaker, he's going to face Zero in the Ro8.
Edit: I'm assuming the winner of A plays the runner-up of group D, like the last 2 OSLs. Or have they released a different draw?
On May 30 2012 15:15 J1.au wrote: Anyone picking Bogus is scared Flash will beat their favourite players.
Yo mean everyone picking Bogus is using their head to analysis the players rather than using their fanboyism doing their picking.
Exactly how is picking Bogus supposed to qualify as good analysis of the players? Bogus has been struggling HORRIBLY in the Terran vs Terran match-up.
Prior to this match, Flash was 4-1 since the break against tough competition, 10-3 in the past 12 months, 56-17 in the past 24 months, highest ELO vs Terran and highest ELO peak vs Terran.
Bogus is not even top 25 ELO vs Terran or top 25 ELO peak, HAD NOT WON A SINGLE GAME vs TERRAN SINCE THE BREAK (0-6), 5-7 past 12 months, 13-15 past 24 months. Head-to-head he was 0-3 against Flash. Even if we look at the map, Bogus had only a 2-4 record on Sniper Ridge compared to Flash's 4-1 record.
There is absolutely nothing there to indicate that Bogus had a good chance of victory.
Your just sore that your favourite player lost...Grow up!
He's using statistics to predict something and statistics show that there was a much higher probability of it going one way. What shitty attitude is this trying to tell other people to grow up? These statistics are true regardless of rather he's a KT or STX or flash or bogus fan.
On May 31 2012 13:34 Ryo wrote: Nah, Shine can't beat Fantasy. Fantasy's only competitor is Jangbi, as long as Jangbi continues to think he's destined to win the last OSL.
You're grossly underestimating flash if you think Fantasy's just gonna walk over him in a Bo5. No way bogus is beating flash twice in a row and action has spent too long getting mauled in practice.
I never said Flash wouldn't get past the Ro16, or the Ro8 for that matter. Although if he does win the tiebreaker, he's going to face Zero in the Ro8.
Edit: I'm assuming the winner of A plays the runner-up of group D, like the last 2 OSLs. Or have they released a different draw?
I was more disagreeing with the 'jangbi is the only competitor' comment and preempting the counter argument that flash might not even make the ro8. Zero in the ro8 will be ugly, Flash TvZ looks unbeatable these days + it's bo5. A repeat of the MSL Flash vs Fantasy semi would be amazing although I'm not sure how the ro4/8 matchups are decided besides 1st place plays 2nd place.
On May 31 2012 10:32 Caihead wrote: Why are people saying fantasy is underrated? Protege of Boxer / iloveoov / SKT coaching. Early and consistent deep tournament results against TBLS. Just being the terran under boxer / iloveoov already got him more hype than flash ever did until flash won multiple golds. As far as people making fun of him goes, it's because he was overrated and made eccentric builds and refused to GG (which are characteristic of lesser players, which is why the comparison is funny). He hit a bump in 2011 but so do all players, fantasy fans (i'm one of them) should stop pretending they are cheering for an underdog when he's clearly got the most resources of any terran in the league teammate /practice partner wise, coaching wise, and resources wise.
Fantasy has never been put on the same level as Bisu or Stork, nor considered Code S, despite far better SL results than both and sometimes better PL results. Only recently did he get 1st rank on the power rank. He has NEVER lost a PL post-season game and has come up big in the biggest moments. He easily won against Stork but wasn't considered the favorite in the next season, maybe not even in the top 3. People, for whatever reason, have never looked at Fantasy in the same light as others like TBLS. Add in people saying his success is only because of Oov and Boxer and you get a lot of fans who do think he is underrated.
Someone ignorant of the facts of fantasy's performance can't possible have an evaluation thats worth any weight, and whether they pick an opinion that's underrated or overrated is entirely coincidental. If anything more people overrated him on the ignorant basis that he's boxer / oov's protege, not underrated. The points you made - not same level as bisu or stork (thats because he wasn't when people thought that, which isn't under rating), not considered code S (thats ridiculous, most people did), only recently get 1st rank (thats because he deserved it now, and flash deserved rank 1 most of the time he had it). Legitimate points about other things. Imo he wasn't considered TBLS level because he just couldn't match flash in the rivalry when TBLS was first thought up (2007-2008 Bisu / Stork was a very back and forth rivalry), just like how there isn't another zerg in the TBLS because no other zergs came close then.
On May 30 2012 15:15 J1.au wrote: Anyone picking Bogus is scared Flash will beat their favourite players.
Yo mean everyone picking Bogus is using their head to analysis the players rather than using their fanboyism doing their picking.
Exactly how is picking Bogus supposed to qualify as good analysis of the players? Bogus has been struggling HORRIBLY in the Terran vs Terran match-up.
Prior to this match, Flash was 4-1 since the break against tough competition, 10-3 in the past 12 months, 56-17 in the past 24 months, highest ELO vs Terran and highest ELO peak vs Terran.
Bogus is not even top 25 ELO vs Terran or top 25 ELO peak, HAD NOT WON A SINGLE GAME vs TERRAN SINCE THE BREAK (0-6), 5-7 past 12 months, 13-15 past 24 months. Head-to-head he was 0-3 against Flash. Even if we look at the map, Bogus had only a 2-4 record on Sniper Ridge compared to Flash's 4-1 record.
There is absolutely nothing there to indicate that Bogus had a good chance of victory.
Pretty sure he meant analyzing this one game itself, not whatever it is your doing.
Also, you seem upset.
In addition that's what makes brood war great. Games aren't played on paper, or by the fans, anything can happen, and much to the dismay of Flash and JD fans, things do happen occasionally. Remember when even at the (or one of) the peaks of Flash's career, he lost like 5,6, or 7 consecutive ace matches, most (all?) to terrans? He was still the best overall player, but players can practice and plan accordingly and outplay Flash. He's just human after all. What's the big deal? He's not even eliminated yet.
The big deal is this guy's attitude and saying it's blind fanboyism and that he should "grow up" because he pick flash as favorite over bogus in TvT right now, would be as stupid as someone picking some random zerg over Jaedong during JvZ and saying its blind fanboyism other wise.
Flash and Grape got raped so freaking bad. Hyvaa looked like he was a boss.............What can you say about Horang2 LOL.............
Bogus looked good.......He seemed like the the ace player that he's suppose to be. Contained Flash and was all over the place the commentator couldnt seem to keep up............I see Bogus upsetting out of the tie breaker if he can go back into his beast mode from 2 PL ago.
On May 31 2012 13:34 Ryo wrote: Nah, Shine can't beat Fantasy. Fantasy's only competitor is Jangbi, as long as Jangbi continues to think he's destined to win the last OSL.
You're grossly underestimating flash if you think Fantasy's just gonna walk over him in a Bo5. No way bogus is beating flash twice in a row and action has spent too long getting mauled in practice.
I never said Flash wouldn't get past the Ro16, or the Ro8 for that matter. Although if he does win the tiebreaker, he's going to face Zero in the Ro8.
Edit: I'm assuming the winner of A plays the runner-up of group D, like the last 2 OSLs. Or have they released a different draw?
I was more disagreeing with the 'jangbi is the only competitor' comment and preempting the counter argument that flash might not even make the ro8. Zero in the ro8 will be ugly, Flash TvZ looks unbeatable these days + it's bo5. A repeat of the MSL Flash vs Fantasy semi would be amazing although I'm not sure how the ro4/8 matchups are decided besides 1st place plays 2nd place.
In his current state, I just don't think Flash will win 3 consecutive Bo5s, beating Fantasy along the way.
I feel bad for fantasy. he has been the best player in the world for the last 6+ months but never really has a shot to definitely prove it because of lack of venue. fewer PL matches (and no ACE match), seeded in finals so he couldn't rape up playoffs, and only 1 individual league. worst of all it all seems so much less important because of the fucking sc2 switch :\
On May 31 2012 14:58 Ideas wrote: I feel bad for fantasy. he has been the best player in the world for the last 6+ months but never really has a shot to definitely prove it because of lack of venue. fewer PL matches (and no ACE match), seeded in finals so he couldn't rape up playoffs, and only 1 individual league. worst of all it all seems so much less important because of the fucking sc2 switch :\
Yeah, even as an anti-fan I agree whole-heartedly with this :/
I think when they talk about Fanta being under appreciated they mean the more casual, TV crowd. Fanta is a BW genius in a strict sense of the word: both flamboyant and efficient. He will destroy you and make it look subtle. (/fanboy mode off).
On May 31 2012 12:40 setzer wrote: nor considered Code S
On May 31 2012 14:23 Caihead wrote: not considered code S
Fanta wasn't considered "Code-S" cuz that's a lame SC2 term for main league players.. Besides BW has a simple Bonjwa - God and others who try to take over. Fantasy can become God if he keeps his undefeated streak and wins OSL. Fantasy is underrated by everyone. Bisu got an MVP from Kespa so no need to keep saying that all the time.
In other news soO is really "hyuking" everyone up. He was close to finals last OSL and now he proves he can get there again. I'm really pulling for this underdog to shock every1.
On May 31 2012 16:25 SCnai wrote: I think when they talk about Fanta being under appreciated they mean the more casual, TV crowd. Fanta is a BW genius in a strict sense of the word: both flamboyant and efficient. He will destroy you and make it look subtle. (/fanboy mode off).
Actually fantasy was underrated for really long time. I just laughing my ass when Kwark made his prediction in Bachus 2011 final with easy 3-0 win for Stork. Not only becouse i KNEW Fantasy was better than this, not only becouse in my opinion Stork's showdown against Hiya was overhyped, but becouse Kwark had his predictions based on Fantasy's TvZ failfast against unpedictable Calm (i know "Clam" likes to be laughting stock sometimes, but he is smart-ass bastard and fighting against him can be as difficult as against more consistent, but predictable oponent). What the fuck? Fantasy's TvP was ALWAYS S-class, how somebody could made such a blunder not taking it into consideration? To be honest, I also thouth that Stork will take gold after really close battle. But not becouse I thouth Fanta was worse, but becouse maps seemed to be so horrible for terran players, that in case of close skilled players protoss victory was nearly asured (hello Aztec!)
Yet Fantasy win was crushing. Even than many people didnt want to accept that Fantasy was better than they thouth. All the fault was Stork's earier loss to Zero or ex-girlfriend. But after last finals against Jangbi breakthrough was done and many guys from TL considered him S-class at last.
I think that BW is so dead, and flash doesn't even care anymore he's moved onto SC2. It's quite a shame that BW is ending in this way, a lot of the games look terribly sloppy now -_- at least Fantasy will probably win this OSL.
On June 01 2012 02:22 dRaW wrote: I think that BW is so dead, and flash doesn't even care anymore he's moved onto SC2. It's quite a shame that BW is ending in this way, a lot of the games look terribly sloppy now -_- at least Fantasy will probably win this OSL.
So this is the way BW ends... not with a bang but a whimper.
On May 31 2012 23:40 hitthat wrote: Actually fantasy was underrated for really long time. I just laughing my ass when Kwark made his prediction in Bachus 2011 final with easy 3-0 win for Stork. Not only becouse i KNEW Fantasy was better than this, not only becouse in my opinion Stork's showdown against Hiya was overhyped, but becouse Kwark had his predictions based on Fantasy's TvZ failfast against unpedictable Calm (i know "Clam" likes to be laughting stock sometimes, but he is smart-ass bastard and fighting against him can be as difficult as against more consistent, but predictable oponent). What the fuck? Fantasy's TvP was ALWAYS S-class, how somebody could made such a blunder not taking it into consideration? To be honest, I also thouth that Stork will take gold after really close battle. But not becouse I thouth Fanta was worse, but becouse maps seemed to be so horrible for terran players, that in case of close skilled players protoss victory was nearly asured (hello Aztec!)
Yet Fantasy win was crushing. Even than many people didnt want to accept that Fantasy was better than they thouth. All the fault was Stork's earier loss to Zero or ex-girlfriend. But after last finals against Jangbi breakthrough was done and many guys from TL considered him S-class at last.
I like Fantasy as much as the next guy, and I've liked him for a long time, but you can't talk about his win over Stork without at least mentioning the fact that Stork was going through a devastating break-up at the time. You may think that he's a professional and that he wouldn't let it interfere with work, but Stork didn't just lose to Fantasy, he lost pretty much every series or game he played during that period. It was quite obviously affecting his performance.
really? One day after his crushing defeat Stork won ace match against Fanta + beaten Bisu, and that time his mental condition wasnt suposed to be better, right? So no, not so obviously.
On June 01 2012 16:22 hitthat wrote: really? One day after his crushing defeat Stork won ace match against Fanta + beaten Bisu, and that time his mental condition wasnt suposed to be better, right? So no, not so obviously.
And two days before he got knocked out of the MSL, again 0-3. It's nice that he beat Fantasy the next day, but I can't imagine anyone on SKT being entirely sober the day after their team mate won an OSL.
On June 01 2012 16:22 hitthat wrote: really? One day after his crushing defeat Stork won ace match against Fanta + beaten Bisu, and that time his mental condition wasnt suposed to be better, right? So no, not so obviously.
And two days before he got knocked out of the MSL, again 0-3.
Against Zero, one of the best Zergs of the Era. And he has never play really that good against Zergs anyway.
On May 31 2012 23:18 Motivate wrote: man hyvaa is such a freaking troll! he sucks at zvz normally, and yet he's knocked JD out twice and potentially has taken soulkey out with him!
that being said, woo fantasy.. loving his new stone cold face as he tears scrubs up with his terrorist bikes
Yeah, hyvaa probable next antihero after Shine. The only difference is, Shine can play well, his commentary are always fun to hear. Hyvaa, Hogil, oh well, JD just needed a bo3 with all of them, so that they would start vZ slumping
I seriously want to punch Horang2. Why would you cancel that cannon, I don't care how many hatches you think he has. It was basically already done and you'd want two eventually anyway, so since you committed even if you canceled it would still end up costing you 38 minerals wasted, so might as well keep it. What an idiot. As nuke said, it was opposite star-sense. Utter lunacy.
On June 02 2012 12:41 Crisium wrote: I seriously want to punch Horang2. Why would you cancel that cannon, I don't care how many hatches you think he has. It was basically already done and you'd want two eventually anyway, so since you committed even if you canceled it would still end up costing you 38 minerals wasted, so might as well keep it. What an idiot. As nuke said, it was opposite star-sense. Utter lunacy.
We see your Khan tag, thus your rage that Stork failed again, but please do not call other players "idiots."
Yes, I know that I am raging unjustly at Horang2. But he was quite insane. As was Stork too. Protoss just want to fail sometimes. But at least Stork cut corners all they way until it was too late. If Horang2 got busted with just the one cannon it would suck but not this bad. It's that he build a second, analyzed a situation with incomplete assessments (when you assume...) and decide it was better to have one cannon and 112 minerals more then two cannons. He didn't even have to cut corners as Forge-Nexus-Cannon-econ-second cannon is fine against a typical 9/overpool. The thought process Horang2 went through to get those 112 minerals back just hurts my brain. I can only suspect that once he saw those Hydras busting the front he wanted to hit himself as badly as I did.
Once again the burden is on JangBi and JangBi alone to bring glory to Auir. Well, hopefully either Mini or Grape join him in the Ro8, but even if they could get past Rush they would be no match for any of the other Ro8 contenders.
Fantasy sucks, he is only good because of Vulture abuse. That is why his tvp and tvt are statistically much better than his tvz. His tvz was horrible, that's why oov had to come up with mech builds so Fantasy could abuse vultures again. It''s not like Fantasy had S-Class MnM tvz and then oov suddenly said "ok, now lets try something else!"
Also, he is 0-1 overall against Where, so if my previous argument didn't convince you, this point is undeniable hence I win this debate
On June 02 2012 20:23 Djin)ftw( wrote: Fantasy sucks, he is only good because of Vulture abuse. That is why his tvp and tvt are statistically much better than his tvz. His tvz was horrible, that's why oov had to come up with mech builds so Fantasy could abuse vultures again. It''s not like Fantasy had S-Class MnM tvz and then oov suddenly said "ok, now lets try something else!"
Also, he is 0-1 overall against Where, so if my previous argument didn't convince you, this point is undeniable hence I win this debate
That's like saying Stork sucks because he's only good at abusing dragoons. Vultures are the most important unit in TvP. Fantasy is amazingly efficient with his 270~ apm. He's not as smart as Flash, but he doesn't have to be since he prefers to have a more active role and direct the play.
On June 02 2012 20:23 Djin)ftw( wrote: Fantasy sucks, he is only good because of Vulture abuse. That is why his tvp and tvt are statistically much better than his tvz. His tvz was horrible, that's why oov had to come up with mech builds so Fantasy could abuse vultures again. It''s not like Fantasy had S-Class MnM tvz and then oov suddenly said "ok, now lets try something else!"
Also, he is 0-1 overall against Where, so if my previous argument didn't convince you, this point is undeniable hence I win this debate
I see the humor at the end, but the venom at the beginning seems so pure...
On June 02 2012 20:23 Djin)ftw( wrote: Fantasy sucks, he is only good because of Vulture abuse. That is why his tvp and tvt are statistically much better than his tvz. His tvz was horrible, that's why oov had to come up with mech builds so Fantasy could abuse vultures again. It''s not like Fantasy had S-Class MnM tvz and then oov suddenly said "ok, now lets try something else!"
Also, he is 0-1 overall against Where, so if my previous argument didn't convince you, this point is undeniable hence I win this debate
I was about to rage until I saw the last sentence... well played.
On June 02 2012 20:23 Djin)ftw( wrote: Fantasy sucks, he is only good because of Vulture abuse. That is why his tvp and tvt are statistically much better than his tvz. His tvz was horrible, that's why oov had to come up with mech builds so Fantasy could abuse vultures again. It''s not like Fantasy had S-Class MnM tvz and then oov suddenly said "ok, now lets try something else!"
Also, he is 0-1 overall against Where, so if my previous argument didn't convince you, this point is undeniable hence I win this debate
I see the humor at the end, but the venom at the beginning seems so pure...
Hey, whats wrong with that? He actually admited that Fantasy IS good nevertheless ;P
On June 01 2012 02:22 dRaW wrote: I think that BW is so dead, and flash doesn't even care anymore he's moved onto SC2. It's quite a shame that BW is ending in this way, a lot of the games look terribly sloppy now -_- at least Fantasy will probably win this OSL.
The games have been getting worse for over 8 months man. It's only KeSPA.
Besides that, I'd say Fantasy has been playing better than the other guys for around the same timeframe as well. It's going to be funny when all the excuses come rolling around, but honestly. Fantasy has been hot since the start of last PL, but we're only seeing the results now on the ELO and all that other shit because it takes time for it to set in.
Flash is in same position as all other BW players - worst possible scenario of having to play TWO different games at the same time. And Fantasy hasn't on OSL YET.