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On June 01 2005 19:10 SaNteria wrote:I don't mean this as a cut against Pat since he really did do an amazing service to the community, but I just don't understand how someone can pour so much heart and effort into something just to say "done, can't do it anymore, bye" with no continuation plan in place or even a warning. This isn't coming from a rabid PGTer (I played maybe 10 games on your ladder and found it to be very well done - I just don't enjoy ladders), it's coming from a guy who has seen personal tragedy and conflict but hasn't let that undermine the position of responsibility he has placed himself in. The second you started accepting registrations, you became responsible to the people that took part in your ladder. You leaving out of the blue is akin to me being in charge of driving 5 of my friends to work and just deciding one day not to show up and not tell them why. Hell, it's not a big deal, they can take the bus (From now on, WGTour will be refered to as "taking the bus"  ) Life is unpredictable, hell, that's half the fun. How can you place yourself as the main pin in a network of thousands of people and not have imagined the day that you might need to take some time off. You owed it to the community after what you started, moreso, you owed it to yourself. You made the world's best beer and after letting everyone sample it you up and decided not to put it on the market anymore. Not cool. And yes, to answer numerous posts - real life is important. But convince yourself that 30 hours of work a week is not your "real life" Just because what he did was web-based does not give anyone a reason to trivialize it as "not real." What he did affected a lot of people, that in itself made it more real than most things a lot of us will ever do. Pulling the plug on that out of the blue is simply assinine. I'm sorry Pat. I wish you all the luck in the world and I have a tremendous amount of respect for you - but this should not have been allowed to happed.
Well... your post is hard but its almost real. Like admin (and super admin) I felt as you wrote. I spend about 25 hrs/week for PGTour, and with a lot of presure, since all the ladder was in my charge, including the counter abuse team. Even, I was putting a lot of presure to my team, for keep the ladder working properly. One day, nobody knows more about Pat, and when I said nobody, is NOBODY of us..
I know that Pat was in his rights for do it as he did. I know that isn´t fair to ask anything to him, because PGTour heart was/is him.
But I can´t control myself with my feelings. I love PGTour, I love my job in PGTour, and I hope that it comes asap. But, those days, I felt abandoned.
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On June 01 2005 23:24 rS.heaven wrote:
zerolifex
i just wanna know how you've been in contact with pat
considering
me/chr1s and tiliaser havent been able to get a hold of him
PM's through this site.
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thx pat  pgtour plz back 
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tfeign,
If you take analogies that literally, then I hope no one ever told you that "war is Hell" or you'll end up going to Iraq with your sword and wizard's hat all the while screaming "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" at the suicide bombers.
The simple point, which you miraculously managed to miss, against all odds, is that Pat put himself in a position where he was depended upon by others. The details aren't important, for the end result is the same. He then proceeded to pull the rug out from under these same people with no warning and absolutely zero foresight.
It's just completely irresponsible, and as much as I appreciate Pat, I can't understand that.
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As fun as PGTour is, I won't ruin my personal life over it. Sorry. It cost me a bit over 4000$ to devellope and $300/month to maintain. Believe me, I didn't have to close it for the fun of it, there was a major issue. I need to put my prioritary first. A game is a game and even if I like Starcraft to the bone, the SC community and this whole project, as I said, I cannot ruin my life for it.
It's easy to complain but will you find 30 people ready to give $10 per month to maintain it? I doubt so and its almost nothing. people complain easily but when it's time to put their hand in the dust, not so many people are willing to do it
You can say whatever you want and it's fine, I respect your opinion but let me tell you that no one put so much effort in this (you cannot imagine how many night I stayed up to work with Gybs, thats totally insane and I work full time). So unless someone is ready to put as much time, effort and money as I did, I am not really willing to ear people complain about me =/ I really did my best, believe me.
Anyway, if everything turns out well, it might be back =]
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On June 02 2005 07:43 SaNteria wrote:
tfeign,
If you take analogies that literally, then I hope no one ever told you that "war is Hell" or you'll end up going to Iraq with your sword and wizard's hat all the while screaming "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" at the suicide bombers.
The simple point, which you miraculously managed to miss, against all odds, is that Pat put himself in a position where he was depended upon by others. The details aren't important, for the end result is the same. He then proceeded to pull the rug out from under these same people with no warning and absolutely zero foresight.
It's just completely irresponsible, and as much as I appreciate Pat, I can't understand that.
Wow, I like the way you formulate and describe things. Your metaphors are also great. Why dont'ya write something for tl.net? News or something? Game reports?
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There's a lot of good poker players on this site. I wonder if they would be willing to take small amounts of donated money and play low stakes as a fundraiser to maintain PGT?
I'm certain that if we could get 1 person to donate $25, and 1 good player to sit at a table with it for 4 hours, we could get a good chunk of change toward PGT's maintenance costs, if not the whole thing. If there were 3-5 of these players and only the same amount of donators (which should be feasible), there probably wouldn't be a problem with the money of maintaining the service.
Anyone else's thoughts?
EDIT: It probably wouldn't even take 2 hours  .
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On June 02 2005 08:54 ulti wrote:
Wow, I like the way you formulate and describe things. Your metaphors are also great. Why dont'ya write something for tl.net? News or something? Game reports?
Because he's actually very lazy. The fact that he wrote this much in a single thread, where other people could actually understand what he's talking about, is simply astonishing (=
<3 steve nopants.
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pat, you shouldnt let it die especially if you put that much engagement and passion in it ..
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kind of OT here, but wgtour probably uses MORE people and MORE money so why can't they be as good as pgtour?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On June 02 2005 08:42 Pat wrote:As fun as PGTour is, I won't ruin my personal life over it. Sorry. It cost me a bit over 4000$ to devellope and $300/month to maintain. Believe me, I didn't have to close it for the fun of it, there was a major issue. I need to put my prioritary first. A game is a game and even if I like Starcraft to the bone, the SC community and this whole project, as I said, I cannot ruin my life for it. It's easy to complain but will you find 30 people ready to give $10 per month to maintain it? I doubt so and its almost nothing. people complain easily but when it's time to put their hand in the dust, not so many people are willing to do it You can say whatever you want and it's fine, I respect your opinion but let me tell you that no one put so much effort in this (you cannot imagine how many night I stayed up to work with Gybs, thats totally insane and I work full time). So unless someone is ready to put as much time, effort and money as I did, I am not really willing to ear people complain about me =/ I really did my best, believe me. Anyway, if everything turns out well, it might be back =]
Pretty much dead on in terms of logic. You did this bw community a service, ableit a short one, but nonetheless a service. Ty!
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yeah, dont go about yelling at Pat. It's his life not yours no one has the right to tell someone else how they should live. If your that kind of people who have to be in charge, then i pity you.
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On June 02 2005 02:27 tfeign wrote:
Suppose it take you over 30 hours a week to drive your friends to work. In addition to this, you will also be paying $300 a month just to drive your friends to work for free [And lets not forget about the money Pat has put out for prizes while we're at it]. Would any sane person be kind enough to do this? Pat didn't just do it, he did it for a year. Suppose after a year, shit hit the ceiling. Your life is hit by a high speed train, you kindly tell your friends that you are very sorry, but after a year spending over 30 hours a week and $300 a month of driving them to work, you don't have the resources to drive them to work anymore. There is another friend who you can drive you to work (WGTour), but in a less luxurious car. You tell them that for now, you will stop driving your friends to work as you try to work out a better plan with a few people. If things work out right, instead of you driving your friends to work in your luxurious car, someone else will be driving your friends to work in your luxurious car, but it may take a bit of time before things get sorted out.
Jesus... if that above paragraph was true then you would be right, but u just presented a bunch of made up shit as facts. Yes you tore down his analogy, fine, it's not a perfect one but it got the general idea along of letting people down after accepting a responsibility. But pat did not tell them that "for now, you will stop driving yoru friends to work." He just shut down the server and hid from all attempts to contact him. He did not tell people that he would be gone while working out a better plan. He just disapeared. He still won't talk to his "friends" (chris, t1laser). What you described is what he SHOULD HAVE DONE, and if he had done that he would have done nothing wrong. No one thinks that he is not allowed to leave PGT when his life goes badly. I really have a lot of respect for pat and deeply appreciate the work he's done, and I think he's one of the best people in the BW community. That doesn't make him impervious to fuck ups. He fucked up. He had taken on a responsibility and when he needed to leave it, rather than letting people know he was going and saying "gimme some time to set up another way for you guys to play PGT" he just disapeared. That's what the complaint is on. I'm positive that if i had logged onto the PGT website and saw a news post saying "My life has hit hard times and I will be shutting down PGT for now untill I can find someone else to run it." then I would have been completely sympathetic and held him as doing no wrong, and there would also have been an outpour of people trying to help him out.
Him leaving PGT for personal issues is not wrong. It's the method of disapearing without a word that is wrong.
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I think after so much time i can tell honestly that wgtour survived many ladder-like sites and stuff.Let's take example the neogamei site. The site was horrible but the ladder system made wonders among the players and so, in a short time the number of players increased drastically due to most koreans who have heard about the ladder.
But let's take a look at who had the power(the man behind the scene). It was 1 man. 1 man i repeat. After continuing for better than 2-3 months (i don't remember exactly) the admin left and nobody was there anymore making updates and other related stuff over the server.
Now let's take pgtour. Pgtour was even better than ng-i. With a cool graphics, a great forum and so many registered user,it was becoming clear that in a short time it will be the no 1 ladder. And so it was. Everything was running smoothly, the players were happy , the users also. I can honestly tell that from my perspective everyone who visited the site was proud of being a starcraft player  .
But i never thought for a second that at the base of pgtour was only 1 man and that was PAT. I never thought that he could do so much for the community, giving himself totaly for making this great ladder and being only 1 man. Sure there were other admins but i think nobody has done more than him.
I think PAT like many others did this for the people, and having fun making it, in the beginning. But over time, in the long term he never expected to be so much hard work, which took slowly his real life, becoming over 30 hours/week maintaining the site.
The cold reality took over the great dream of PAT. Reality made the win against the dream. That's how it was.
In this thread that so many users posted, everyone keeps coming with a great idea for returning this great server but when it comes down to actually doing nobody is. It is so simply to make judgement of PAT, that many people forget that he paid this for other people like me and u to enjoy the game. Nobody else has done more to the community like PAT did.
Wgtour is also great. People are complaining about how they don't like the system cause they have to post the replays and so on. Posting a replay is less than 30 seconds. U can't give 30 seconds of your life to post your own replay ? Come on let's be serious. PAT spend so much time and u cannot do this?
TLT was also good for the people. Don't try to explain that it will ruin your strategy in the long term in competition when it comes down to finals if u post your replays. Starcraft is more than watching replays, is about timing, strategy and so many other stuff. Sure at the high level it will ruin your strategy, but the most majority are C1-C6 and they are complaining about the system. Play wgtour don't be sad.
PAT's dream was a good one. But it becomes clear and clear know, that a site like pgtour needs more than just 1 man behind the scene . Maybe 5,10 who knows. Time will tell.
Until a great server like pgtour will come or if it comes back, i thank from the bottom of my heart to PAT for giving so much to the community.U were great man. U had a great dream... Have a nice life from now on... :D
But for the rest of people play wgtour and don't whine....
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haha 4k to develope and 400/month to maintain.
you wonder why i told u not to move it to a priviate server in the first place?
obviously this issue is about money. why pat didn't see this coming i don't know ...
the server was still hackable. I know of a few people who successfully hacked it. its like he wasted his money on a server where the public maphack version didn't work but prviate hackers were still able to create a maphack for it.
I mean one good thing was the automatied ranking between the server and "nicely" developed website thanks to chr1s. but who would play money to play on a server thats just like bnet and still allowed priviate maphacks to be used. even the blizzard programers can't stop maphacks.. look at war3, war2, sc, etc. I didn't see pgtour as a solution to hacks. i saw it as just another server that costed more but someoen was paying for it and it was nice cuz you dind't have to go through replay uploading and whispering bot..althought u did have to do it for 2v2 gamers.. which is just wgtour .. .
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On May 31 2005 17:43 ZeroLifeX wrote:
Hey,
I have been speaking with Pat over the last couple of days just to get things sorted out.
He is still yet to talk to chr1s and TiLaser, but everything looks good at the moment
Just to inform you Brad, i told Pat about what you did. I just found out today and i am really suprised that you would do that, its on them now to trust you or not ^^
To crack Eki was really a bad idea from you, this i wouldnt forgive you.
Btw with bugging your nick you made australia without a leader
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pay events could have generated revenue. a ceo should delegate more responsibilities not do an insane amount of work himself. and i'm ashamed blizzard is an obstacle in something like this instead of a helper.
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Has anyone here EVER felt crapper than crap? - Only those that have should have the right to bitch about Pat not posting any news and no one, and I do mean NO-ONE, that hasn't should be complaining about him.
Ask yourself this; if something suddenly happed that ended up making you feel like shit, Would you be in the mood to talk to a ton of people who you have never ever met and don't even trust or even talk to anyone at all?
And even then he said doesn’t want to hear it and, truthfully, I wouldn't want to hear it either if I was feeling like crap like Pat is probably feeling right now.
Should of, would of, could have, Just doesn’t matter now. When you feel like crap and look back there will always be a: should of, would of, could have.
Something happened, Pat pulled the plug due to personal reasons that he apparently doesn’t want to discuss with anyone, we all hope PGTour will be back, but for gods sake, Get Off Pat's Back, he is probably feeling bad enough as it is without people reefing on him............ 
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Dev, first of all, this has nothing to do with money but some issues in my life. Please, do not assume anything about things you do not even know about.
Also, nothing is 100% safe but good thing is people who are skilled enough to crack an anti-hack system (ng-i, BWS, BNet-X launcher, etc...) aren't good enough at the game anyway and what matters is that 99% of people cannot hack.
What matters is to do something to prevent hacks, not whine because it cannot be 100% loser/hacker proof >_<
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EPT
