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On July 30 2011 08:30 Lebesgue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 08:16 Release wrote:On July 30 2011 08:10 Hinanawi wrote:
2 Terrans, 5 Zergs, 1 undecided yet (could be T, P, or Z)
But it's Terrans who are ruining starleagues?
It's just Flash being Flash, as usual. Not 'Terrans'. Protoss ruin starleagues by not being in them. Call me ignorant, but back in 09, movie started countering 5/6 hatch hydra. Now, protoss should be able tofind a new way to counter current ZvP, but they're not. Also, none of the 5 zergs have any real chance of winning this OSL. Nobody gave Effort chances too. And yet he won. And Effort was terrible at that time. I don't know who created the legend of him but he was in a deep slump for months. He couldn't even beat go.go in the tie-breakers for god's sake. And go.go was terrible.
Hah, I was just thinking about the same thing recently.
Effort had a really good like 30-3 streak, then was mediocre for a year, then won a really weird OSL (not trying to take too much away from him, but it was like he turned into Kwanro for 3 games).
Retiring was probably the best thing he could've done for his legacy, since he might have been regarded more as a Mind-type player rather than s-class.
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On July 30 2011 10:55 SimonB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 08:30 Lebesgue wrote:On July 30 2011 08:16 Release wrote:On July 30 2011 08:10 Hinanawi wrote:
2 Terrans, 5 Zergs, 1 undecided yet (could be T, P, or Z)
But it's Terrans who are ruining starleagues?
It's just Flash being Flash, as usual. Not 'Terrans'. Protoss ruin starleagues by not being in them. Call me ignorant, but back in 09, movie started countering 5/6 hatch hydra. Now, protoss should be able tofind a new way to counter current ZvP, but they're not. Also, none of the 5 zergs have any real chance of winning this OSL. Nobody gave Effort chances too. And yet he won. And Effort was terrible at that time. I don't know who created the legend of him but he was in a deep slump for months. He couldn't even beat go.go in the tie-breakers for god's sake. And go.go was terrible. Hah, I was just thinking about the same thing recently. Effort had a really good like 30-3 streak, then was mediocre for a year, then won a really weird OSL (not trying to take too much away from him, but it was like he turned into Kwanro for 3 games). Retiring was probably the best thing he could've done for his legacy, since he might have been regarded more as a Mind-type player rather than s-class.
Well, he did still destroy Flash in the Bigfile but after that, he did drop off.
It would be nice to see a huge tiebreaker into calm vs flash finals into calm pulls a ggplay
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On July 30 2011 10:55 SimonB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 08:30 Lebesgue wrote:On July 30 2011 08:16 Release wrote:On July 30 2011 08:10 Hinanawi wrote:
2 Terrans, 5 Zergs, 1 undecided yet (could be T, P, or Z)
But it's Terrans who are ruining starleagues?
It's just Flash being Flash, as usual. Not 'Terrans'. Protoss ruin starleagues by not being in them. Call me ignorant, but back in 09, movie started countering 5/6 hatch hydra. Now, protoss should be able tofind a new way to counter current ZvP, but they're not. Also, none of the 5 zergs have any real chance of winning this OSL. Nobody gave Effort chances too. And yet he won. And Effort was terrible at that time. I don't know who created the legend of him but he was in a deep slump for months. He couldn't even beat go.go in the tie-breakers for god's sake. And go.go was terrible. Hah, I was just thinking about the same thing recently. Effort had a really good like 30-3 streak, then was mediocre for a year, then won a really weird OSL (not trying to take too much away from him, but it was like he turned into Kwanro for 3 games). Retiring was probably the best thing he could've done for his legacy, since he might have been regarded more as a Mind-type player rather than s-class.
People, especially Flash fans, seem to underrate the fuck out of Effort. I say this as a huge Flash fan myself who still can't believe Flash blew that OSL. To say something like Effort might have been regarded as a Mind-type player ... well maybe he would have been but it would have been unfair and wrong.
Effort, especially at his peak, was way better than Mind ever was (and I'm a Mind fan too!). This is true both objectively (peak ELO above 2300, Mind never had any dominant stretch like Effort did, lifetime win %, Mind was never a big time ace for a big time team in the playoffs though that's partially WeMade's fault), and subjectively (when you watched Effort in 2009 play ZvT or ZvP it was unbelievable - he legitimately looked like a better player than Jaedong at times and was the favorite in any game against anyone other than JD or Flash). Effort also peaked more than once (his ridiculous 2009 stretch and then winning a title over the greatest player ever in 2010), and instilled fear in opponents in a way that Mind never, ever did, and very few players ever have (really the 2300 club is a great place to start to find players that have ever reached that level ... and I'd argue Fantasy never has).
But, because of that ninja-win over Flash after the controversial tiebreaker, people like to act as if Effort was an undeserving title winner or just lucky. Not many players in BW history have gone through stretches like Effort did or looked as good as Effort did - when you make the list of least deserving title winners of all time he doesn't sniff the list in any way shape or form. It's too bad his title didn't coincide with his peak because it would have been looked back upon as one of the great dominant runs in BW history. Yeah, it didn't happen, but Effort was a legitimately great player and should be remembered more favorably than he is.
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anyone making LR thread for tiebreakers?
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This OSL will be gone in a Flash. Yeah.
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Any info on the tiebreakers?
No stream/thread so far :O
Blasphemy!
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On July 30 2011 13:02 Ravencruiser wrote:
Any info on the tiebreakers?
No stream/thread so far :O
Blasphemy!
Calm vs Jangbi
Jangbi vs BaBy
BaBy vs Calm
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On July 29 2011 23:29 Zhul wrote:
Poor JD :/ another easy SL win for Flash
...just as it was an easy SL win for Jaedong in the MSL when flash didn't make it from survivor?
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Not sure why the guy who said ZvP is killing BW was banned, it's true for me as well. The matchup is just so depressing I don't even feel like watching it anymore.
P has to defend against a range of powerful and unscoutable cheeses, and if they do then they don't win... Zerg just throws down a 4th base and it goes to the macro game, where P are still at a disadvantage. It's such a novelty to watch SC2 where P have an even chance against Z and this is from someone who enjoys BW much more, ZvP excepted.
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On July 30 2011 19:26 Balfazar wrote:
Not sure why the guy who said ZvP is killing BW was banned, it's true for me as well. The matchup is just so depressing I don't even feel like watching it anymore.
P has to defend against a range of powerful and unscoutable cheeses, and if they do then they don't win... Zerg just throws down a 4th base and it goes to the macro game, where P are still at a disadvantage. It's such a novelty to watch SC2 where P have an even chance against Z and this is from someone who enjoys BW much more, ZvP excepted.
Matchups have been considered unwinnable and strategies unbeatable a billion times now and every single time a solution was found
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Damn I just watched the VOD of Hydra vs Stork. That was really painful to watch as a protoss fan, it looked so imba  There was one little, or rather tiny moment, where I hoped Stork may win this if he holds. But the hopes got destroyed like Storks main.
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darktreb is right, Effort is underrated player. I was infuriated by his OSL win (all becouse of that ugly tiebreaker series with mouse crusing incident) but I think he had one of the best swarm casting I ever seen.
Ironically, Zero and Soulkey had greater impact for Zerg play than he had.
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Just watched the VOD for Stork vs Hydra........-___________- is the only thing I can post.
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Stork vs Hydra game:
Hydra didn't use a "unbeatable" strategy. Stork lost due to his inability to multitask (yet again), relative to Hydra. Not saying that every Protoss player needs to be like Bisu to win, but I really do think the present wave of Protoss players really lack the ability to multitask, especially in PvZ where the mechanics are more demanding.
In general though, Protoss needs to find a better solution against the recent evolution of the classic hydra bust. Zerg players seem to have finally found a way to punish the FE build.
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I think a major part of the problem is the lack of two player maps. Four player maps allow Z to take four bases quickly since they only have to defend two places, which leads P to cut as many corners as possible to preemptively catch up, which leaves them open to hydras. If Z has to stay on 3 base for longer then P can play more conservatively.
Tiebreakers
+ Show Spoiler +Look at Jangbi vs Calm in the tiebreakers today, if that had been a 4 player map Calm would have had 4 bases before JB pushed out, which would have made it much harder.
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Truth be told, Hyuk vs Modesty with a Hyuk victory was always a pipe dream.
There's a phrase that the best samurai in the world is more afraid of the 1000th best than the 2nd best. Jaedong is that best samurai and against predictible good zergs, he owns. But a random B class player like Hyuk can roll the dice since that's the only way he can win and by chance he beat JD.
JD is also pretty nervous against weak players because he's too afraid to lose, which actually makes him more susceptible.
But Modesty, as an A class player can usually figure out players like Hyuk.
Put it this way- if you put a good poker player against an average one, he will win simply due to his skills. Put him against a poker champion and he will lose for the same reason- and because the champion can figure out what the good player is doing.
But the bad player actually has a better chance against the champion because the champion doesn't know how he plays.
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Protoss vs Zerg is the most unbalanced matchup. You can't argue against that. Goons absolutely suck vs zerg since they do half damage to the main zerg units, and large groups of hydras can only be beaten using a combination of psi storm, reavers, and zealots.
I really do think that zealots should do 18 damage to at least make them have a chance against lings. Against marines, drones, probes, SCV etc... it would have no effect.
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On July 30 2011 19:34 Ikonn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 19:26 Balfazar wrote:
Not sure why the guy who said ZvP is killing BW was banned, it's true for me as well. The matchup is just so depressing I don't even feel like watching it anymore.
P has to defend against a range of powerful and unscoutable cheeses, and if they do then they don't win... Zerg just throws down a 4th base and it goes to the macro game, where P are still at a disadvantage. It's such a novelty to watch SC2 where P have an even chance against Z and this is from someone who enjoys BW much more, ZvP excepted. Matchups have been considered unwinnable and strategies unbeatable a billion times now and every single time a solution was found
Maybe, but that doesn't solve the problem of having having lots of zergs and nearly no protoss left towards the Ro8 of the starleagues recently. I really can't believe that there are more highly skilled / hard working / talented / whatever Zergs than Protoss.
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On August 06 2011 06:45 WaterTower wrote:
There's a phrase that the best samurai in the world is more afraid of the 1000th best than the 2nd best.
Here's another one: don't believe everything you read.
Realistically speaking the best samurai in the world isn't afraid of any other samurai. You don't get to the top of your craft by being fearful.
If anything the 1000th best samurai would be shitting-his-pants intimidated against the best, and for good reason.
Put it this way- if you put a good poker player against an average one, he will win simply due to his skills. Put him against a poker champion and he will lose for the same reason- and because the champion can figure out what the good player is doing.
But the bad player actually has a better chance against the champion because the champion doesn't know how he plays.
I am a poker player. This simply isn't true. In poker in comes down to one thing: EV. It's way more +EV to play a bad player (assuming I'm the champion) than to play the good player.
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On August 06 2011 09:30 KamMoye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 06:45 WaterTower wrote:
There's a phrase that the best samurai in the world is more afraid of the 1000th best than the 2nd best. Here's another one: don't believe everything you read. Realistically speaking the best samurai in the world isn't afraid of any other samurai. You don't get to the top of your craft by being fearful. If anything the 1000th best samurai would be shitting-his-pants intimidated against the best, and for good reason. Show nested quote +Put it this way- if you put a good poker player against an average one, he will win simply due to his skills. Put him against a poker champion and he will lose for the same reason- and because the champion can figure out what the good player is doing.
But the bad player actually has a better chance against the champion because the champion doesn't know how he plays. I am a poker player. This simply isn't true. In poker in comes down to one thing: EV. It's way more +EV to play a bad player (assuming I'm the champion) than to play the good player.
It is somewhat tougher to play against someone you can't predict. A bad player could raise/bet at unexpected times and do crazy things like all in, which the champion would rightfully respond to cautiously- which makes him lose in the long run. In Poker, the EV changes based on how the other person plays- and there's never predicting what a new player does from my experience.
Also, dont say that good players always have nerves of steel. In Poker tournaments, many players wear sunglasses in order to not give away any hints of what they're thinking.
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EPT
