Good players but not good matchups today. Fantasy vs Hiya should be good but other than that it's 2 ZvZ's and a TvZ on pathfinder. Good thing Fantasy vs Hiya is first and then I can get some sleep early.
On July 20 2011 17:34 yepenaxa wrote: There is a /spoiler at the bottom. I can't find where it is
its a sneaky one but I realised its the on the Recommended section.you should remove it.
Ooops, now there's 2 of them. It makes me dizzy. I'll find it before game starts
now remove the [spoiler] since its useless,and we already know what games are being played so it doesn't need to be double spoilered.
[/spoiler] Did it, but there is still this one extra /spoiler. Too many text hurts my eyes looking for it. I hope there is a way to color code it. I'm gonna find it soon
Well yeah? Fantasy sucked for a while after his OSL win. SKT hasn't played a game in like a year so its not like he can really do anything about that record.
On July 20 2011 19:50 LRM)TechnicS wrote: the only way i imagine shine beating hydra is by 9pooling vs hydra's 12 hatch expo ;D
Shine is actually one of the best ZvZers out there.
he is a top cho gosu player, no doubt it's just that today i don't imagine him winning in any other way. as i didn't imagine S2 losing to anybody but Flash on that WL finals thingy. it's just some sort of feeling i guess
I think that was an 11 pool for Hydra vs. a 12 pool for Shine. Maybe 10 pool for Hydra. Either way, drones 11 and 12 were hatched moments after his pool started while Shine waited for his 12th to start his.
Shine moving up to lair first, no lair yet for Hydra
Instead Hydra is hyding a few lings to the side of his base. Shine's overlord won't see it
Hydra getting his lair now
Shine's second overlord sees the lings though!
Lair finished for Shine Hydra's lings arrive at Shine's nat lings dancing around lings engage! Shine holding it off! more lings arrive for shine! Hydra backing away!
On July 20 2011 20:04 StendHalArt wrote: can someone please explain why the korean girls always hide when the camera turns to them?? I always bugged me that I didnt know
On July 20 2011 19:55 Taekwon wrote: Never noticed hydras hair. yum
Yum? Do explain your choice of word there. O_o
you're a battle cruiser now?
cool.
Ya, it's pretty sweet. :D I feel all mighty and powerful now.
*stasis* what an odd post count to become a battle cruiser haha
Indeed. It changed at 13650 or so, wtf. O_o And I checked which date I joined TL to see if there was some logical amount of time that I've been registered or so that could've triggered it, but there really isn't.
both players slamming down a spire, Shine's will finish first
Hydra sending out a lot of lings, 1.5 control groups worth Shine has his mutas out though! Shine's lings/mutas holding off Hydra's ling attack Hydra getting out his own mutas now that his spire has finished too
Hydra sneaking a ling into Shine's base, he's also getting his 2nd gas up
Shine sending his mutas out, they fly over to the nat and take a few shots at the geyser, overlord takes a few hits as well shine also sending out lings but Hydra deals with them well
Hydra sneaks another ling into Shine's main and also gets a drone kill
Shine once again hitting on Hydra's 2nd gas, wow a whole lot of scourge flying by Hydra's mineral line is being hit on by 3 lings, lings score a few drone kills, no mining happening at all on Hydra's nat
Hydra on the offensive now, scourge on scourge action mutas being microed hard, scourge getting more hits, both players muta numbers reduced. Hydra's mutas getting a few drones, but they take hits from scourge, Hydra's muta numbers are even smaller now
Hydra mining gas from his nat again Hydra returning once more to Shine's nat to terrorise those drones. He's flying dangerously close to scourge. More scourge on scourge, Hydra dodging a lot of scourge
Shine on the run, both players with really low muta numbers. Hydra getting another drone as his mutas leave
Shine now hitting on Hydra's nat! drones dying there too
scourge brought in by hydra, shine has scourge too! wow Hydra taking a few hits. AHHH shine also getting hit by scourge lol OHHH Hydra losing his mutas to scourge wow
omg shine's last muta is being chased by scourge LOL this game is hilarious
Shine's last muta dies to scourge after so much dodging
Hydra sending out some lings along with 1 muta, muta is scourged! Lings kill 1 or 2 drones though, Shine's economy is in pieces compared to Hydra's
Hydra sitting a few scourge above eggs, looks like Hydra has this, shine trying to counter with lings but Hydra is defending it
last ditch attack by shine with his last control group of lings lings engaging, shine backing off. Hydra sending his lings to kill Shine. Hydra gets some mutas out, they spot some lings trying to backstab hydra's economy
damn i rooted for shine really good zvz though i think at one point when he had 3 mutas and hydra had none but just scourges he lost all the mutas to scourges and that was pretty huge i think
On July 20 2011 20:19 yepenaxa wrote: Hydra won by smarts. Was waiting for that opportunity Shine move out and he can kill drones in Shines nat. Very Clever.
I bet a certain senior Zerg teammate who currently can't play right now gave him a few pointer tips for that game...
On July 20 2011 20:22 infinitestory wrote: Shine's scourge were dead on (or Hydra just didn't dodge them), but Shine focused too little on the drones, which Hydra targeted and won on.
yeah there was 1 point where he was just attacking the extractor rather than the drones mining from it
seemed like very sloppy play from shine. doesn't he know how important drone kills (and protecting your own drones) are in zvz?
Stork has never been the one who had a difficult time getting practice partners, he's been a pro gamer for longer any any of the players at the top tier by a large margin.
On July 20 2011 20:17 Seraphic wrote: so, it's almost safe to say. Fantasy and Hydra moves on. o.O
what? hydra is 1-1
Playing against Stork man. He's not going to lose, only way Stork is going to win is if he does some huge megacheese.
wouldn't say that.. hydra can't practice as much as stork.
Practice time doesn't matter. Unless Stork brings along some megacheese (aka prepared build), he's not going to win. All Hydra has to do is hydrabust or bring any form of an advantage into the late game where he can abuse cracklings and defilers to take down what is normally an inconsistent Stork. Hydra has the mechanics and general brains to do a boring standard ZvP game and ride any advantage to victory.
If his game against Shine is any indication of his current form, I wouldn't be betting money on a Stork victory.
On July 20 2011 20:17 Seraphic wrote: so, it's almost safe to say. Fantasy and Hydra moves on. o.O
what? hydra is 1-1
Playing against Stork man. He's not going to lose, only way Stork is going to win is if he does some huge megacheese.
wouldn't say that.. hydra can't practice as much as stork.
In terms of team practice partners Hydra has an edge as he has snow and movie while stork has great and junwi?
I'm pretty sure he means that Hydra has to practice for PL while Stork is free to play wow and lose in the OSL. I.e. Hydra has more stuff to do at the moment.
Watching the reply now, I can't understand why Shine would go to the opposite direction his natural when all the time Hydra was poking at it. He should have chase Hydra away from it instead of going the other side.
Shine has no chance to shoot the drones mining gas at hydra nat due to mutas above but hydra has chance to shoot. This win the game i think. Shine got outmicroed in muta battles.
Map is Path Finder Calm in red at 4 o'clock Baby in blue at 12 o'clock
Overlord headed towards an empty base Baby starting a depot at his nat choke Calm going 12 hatch and sending out another drone to scout Calm getting his pool down as Baby's scv arrives to scout the base baby going 14 CC
drone doing a little scv harassing 3rd hatch started inside the main, Calm also takes his main gas
barracks started at the nat choke for baby, baby taking his gas also another depot started at the nat choke to complete the wall meanwhile Calm is moving up to Lair tech scv still inside Calm's main, lings are chasing it around, scv spots the Lair morphing in
Baby getting his 1st factory up. scv dismantled but baby is sending out another. 2nd scv scout spots the Hydra den
baby getting his starport up and adding a shop to the factory
Calm getting a spire now baby getting his ebay up, his shop is spinning lings chase an scv all the way back to its base. Science facility in the making, control tower added to the starport Baby has 2 vultures out
turrets going up around the base, bunker finished at the nat
2 vultures moving out, they take out a bunch of lings sitting outside the nat mutas popping out calm taking his 3rd at 2 o'clock baby putting up more turrets in his main and nat
calm's 3rd is up and he's starting a suknen there, 2 vultures do a quick raid, 1 drone down, mutas arrive and a vulture falls, the second trying to flee but is eventually destroyed by mutas
baby with another vessel out, he's also getting his academy up Calm making some hydras now
baby moving another 2 vultures out, they take damage from mutas. Meanwhile scourge are flying around the map looking for vessels
2 vultures planting mines at the 7 o'clock main lurkers morphed, they're moving towards baby's nat, 1 falls to mines
vultures raiding that 3rd once more, Calm moving his lurkers there to defend Calm is also moving up to Hive now
calm flying into the nat and sniping another vessel, two vessels left Zerg ground army with +1 carapace atm
3 vessels moving out, they irradiate 2 lurkers Calm with a 5th hatch inside his main meanwhile baby is getting up another starport
baby is moving out with his mnm/tanks/vessels they move around his main and over to calm's 3rd
wow calm just engaging! lings/lurkers running forth! Calm taking a lot of damage, his lurkers burrow but are forced to back off after tanks siege up
baby doing a small drop inside the main with 1 dropship, marines unload and start attacking that hydra den Calm sending a large number of units to deal with the drop
baby also attacking calm's 3rd with vultures, few drones dead, lings run in to defend but they die to the vultures as well
ohhhhh irradiate on some mutas, wow they all die, did I see that right?
2 dropships sitting idle at calm's main meanwhile in baby's main, vessels mass irradiate on the lurkers! he's managed to save some of his rax and clean up the zerg drop
both have sustained a lot of damage baby trying another drop but a single lurker defends
baby's main is about to be dropped once more, 4 overlords dropping lings and lurkers! marines take out the lurkers though
baby erasing calm's 3rd once more, wow a lot of drones dead calm not mining at his 4th either
calm's running out of steam is appears baby with a large vessel cloud small group of lings trying to attack baby's 4th but marines deal with it well
calm doing another drop, this time with just lings, lurkers dropped at baby's 3rd
calm's 4th under attack, nydus down, erasers hitting on the 3rd once more, more drones dead T_T omg, how many drones have died this game
large number of lings attack baby's 4th, they all die to marines though
calm's also not mining from his 3rd meanwhile baby's eco is still looking good lurkers/lings on the move! vessel scourged, dmatrix over a firebat! lings melt
another drop in calm's main, hydra den under fire and will fall soon meanwhile at baby's 4th lurkers arrive, 2 lurkers fall before burrowing, scan goes off
lings arrive inside the main to clean up the marines there baby with a decent marine/firebat/medic army engage with lings, suffice to say the lings don't stand a chance
marines get plagued by a defiler, they advance anyway towards the 3rd
And now starts what we all came for, the game of the night, JD vs Hyuk ! I sure want JD to take it, even as a T1 fan, but I also love so much when Hyuk the fail zerg upsets haha. I hate Jaehoon the fail toss, but now I definitely understand how MBC fans must feel when Jaehoon wins.
On July 20 2011 21:22 endy wrote: And now starts what we all came for, the game of the night, JD vs Hyuk ! I sure want JD to take it, even as a T1 fan, but I also love so much when Hyuk the fail zerg upsets haha. I hate Jaehoon the fail toss, but now I definitely understand how MBC fans must feel when Jaehoon wins.
Except that Jaehoon isn't a "fail toss", you're just ignorant. It's comments like yours that stop me from supporting any of T1's players.
Hyuk getting his pool down now JD with a drone at his nat, starts a hatchery there
Hyuk takes his gas, JD already mining from his JD's pool finishes, lings are made
Hyuk making his own lings now JD still searching for Hyuk's whereabouts Hyuk and JD morphing in a lair now JD's ling finds Hyuk, the rest of the lings are sent towards Hyuk's nat
JD getting a spire and adding a sunken to his nat Hyuk getting a spire too
Hyuk sending a large number of lings down towards JD's nat Hyuk engages into the nat! JD has lings and sunkens. Hyuk losing a large chunk of his ling army and decides to fall back
Hyuk taking his 2nd gas, JD still on 1 scourge popping out for Hyuk, mutas too
JD's lings running all the way into Hyuk's nat, Hyuk fighting them off with his own lings
JD has scourge! JD's scourge kill off one of hyuk's mutas!
Hyuk sneaking in two lings into Jd's main, ohhhh almost gets a kill but Jd's mutas defend well
On July 20 2011 21:22 endy wrote: And now starts what we all came for, the game of the night, JD vs Hyuk ! I sure want JD to take it, even as a T1 fan, but I also love so much when Hyuk the fail zerg upsets haha. I hate Jaehoon the fail toss, but now I definitely understand how MBC fans must feel when Jaehoon wins.
This is a really really ignorant comment. It's just so wrong
i'd blame mass scourge more than BO disadvantage there
i also think the observer didn't show hyuk's scourge kill JD's first wave of mutas as they popped. i suspect that happened because JD's supply suddenly dropped
On July 20 2011 21:28 Invictus wrote: whats with jd mass scourge build o.o
No clue, man, no clue. JD overmakes scourge all the time in ZvZ.
Oh well, good try JD.
Difference between a 12 pool economy vs. a 12 hatch economy where you're forced to make a lot of lings. JD actually tends to favor a higher muta count most of the time, but I guess he didn't have the minerals.
On July 20 2011 21:32 red4ce wrote: Ooooh slow-mo. I usually don't stick around long enough to watch the instant replays so I honestly did not know they used it in brood war.
They usually fast forward through the games. Slow motion is appropriate for ZvZs when the relevant action in a game occurs in a span of 0.75 seconds.
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
JD seemed to try and compensate for his BO disadvantage by building shitloads of scourge. Hyuk microed well though in the final encounter and despite eating a lot of scourge hits he ended up with way more mutas.
On July 20 2011 21:33 Seraphic wrote: wait, is JD out of this OSL?
No, he's 1-1 currently
On July 20 2011 21:34 pvzvt wrote: ok now that everyone is calmed down anyone can tell me WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THE CLASSICAL PIECE WE HEARD? thanks in advance
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
JD seemed to try and compensate for his BO disadvantage by building shitloads of scourge. Hyuk microed well though in the final encounter and despite eating a lot of scourge hits he ended up with way more mutas.
On July 20 2011 21:33 Seraphic wrote: wait, is JD out of this OSL?
He's 1-1. If he wins next match, he'll probably go through, though there might be a tiebreaker. If he loses next match, he'll probably get knocked out, though there might be a tiebreaker.
I need to stop missing the beginning of matches, there is no fun in zvz if you miss the exact builds these guys do. All I saw was that without any major win, Hyuk was constantly 8-10 supply ahead, probably BO plus the sunken. Anyway, I just HATE JDs mass scourges, it never seems to work. But maybe he had no other choice at that point in the game, he had much less drones and even had to put 4 into the gas at his natural. Anyway, he needs to beat Hyvaa in a zvz and he is fine. There will be no excuses if he loses that one.
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
JD seemed to try and compensate for his BO disadvantage by building shitloads of scourge. Hyuk microed well though in the final encounter and despite eating a lot of scourge hits he ended up with way more mutas.
only 1 scourge connected i'm fairly sure
Hm, yeah maybe. It was pretty chaotic as usual for ZvZ....Hyuk definitely microed like a boss.
Making so many scourges seems like a massive waste, even with a BO loss. Just make like 4 and rotate drones between gas and mins as needed so you can make more mutas. But whatever.
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
Hyuk played well and didn't make any mistakes. Jaedong didn't do anything extraordinary. Better economy led to Hyuk have a much higher muta count and with some good micro, he was able to easily overcome JD in the air battle.
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
Hyuk played well and didn't make any mistakes. Jaedong didn't do anything extraordinary. Better economy led to Hyuk have a much higher muta count and with some good micro, he was able to easily overcome JD in the air battle.
JD built far too many scourges and relied on hyuk having inferior micro.
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
Hyuk played well and didn't make any mistakes. Jaedong didn't do anything extraordinary. Better economy led to Hyuk have a much higher muta count and with some good micro, he was able to easily overcome JD in the air battle.
JD built far too many scourges and relied on hyuk having inferior micro.
He built too many scourges because he didn't have the minerals for mutas and making scourge was the only way he could use all his gas.
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
Hyuk played well and didn't make any mistakes. Jaedong didn't do anything extraordinary. Better economy led to Hyuk have a much higher muta count and with some good micro, he was able to easily overcome JD in the air battle.
JD built far too many scourges and relied on hyuk having inferior micro.
He built too many scourges because he didn't have the minerals for mutas and making scourge was the only way he could use all his gas.
ah true
i would question whether he needed that sunken. either that or less lings.
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
Hyuk played well and didn't make any mistakes. Jaedong didn't do anything extraordinary. Better economy led to Hyuk have a much higher muta count and with some good micro, he was able to easily overcome JD in the air battle.
JD built far too many scourges and relied on hyuk having inferior micro.
He built too many scourges because he didn't have the minerals for mutas and making scourge was the only way he could use all his gas.
ah true
i would question whether he needed that sunken. either that or less lings.
You need a sunken when you go 12 pool and the opponent goes 12 hatch and attempts a mass ling bust. I think he could've gotten away with making fewer lings though.
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
Hyuk played well and didn't make any mistakes. Jaedong didn't do anything extraordinary. Better economy led to Hyuk have a much higher muta count and with some good micro, he was able to easily overcome JD in the air battle.
JD built far too many scourges and relied on hyuk having inferior micro.
He built too many scourges because he didn't have the minerals for mutas and making scourge was the only way he could use all his gas.
He should rotate drones from his gas to his minerals then. There's no point to wasting gas like that. Or maybe he should have put 3 drones in his nat gas instead of 4. Maybe even only 2.
On the other hand, Hyuk has superb muta micro and won the BO, so there wasn't much JD could do once the game evolved into air battles.
As once was said: "Corpses and mine shrapnel litter the fields The victory slipped through his hands But he returns, like a phoenix from the ashes To terrorize the chinfidel To destroy the Greatest of Zergs For he is Hyuk Survivor, Minesweeper, Bonjwa"
On July 20 2011 21:32 Holgerius wrote: If Hyuk hyuks another LeeSsang out from an OSL I will cry.
This. -_-
So aside from the BO disadvantage, why'd Jaedong lose? I just got here.
Hyuk played well and didn't make any mistakes. Jaedong didn't do anything extraordinary. Better economy led to Hyuk have a much higher muta count and with some good micro, he was able to easily overcome JD in the air battle.
JD built far too many scourges and relied on hyuk having inferior micro.
He built too many scourges because he didn't have the minerals for mutas and making scourge was the only way he could use all his gas.
He should rotate drones from his gas to his minerals then. There's no point to wasting gas like that. Or maybe he should have put 3 drones in his nat gas instead of 4. Maybe even only 2.
On the other hand, Hyuk has superb muta micro and won the BO, so there wasn't much JD could do once the game evolved into air battles.
he wouldnt have enough gas for mutas then what he did allowed him to have the normal amount of gas but if he did what you suggested he'd have a subpar amount of gas AND a subpar amount of minerals (although a bit more than he did this game) either way it doesnt matter because mutas take up more gas than scourge but he didnt have enough min or gas for it.
scourge 25/75, mutas 100/100
What? Let's say you have 7 drones on gas and 4 on mins, yhen you have to make a lot of scourge to burn through the gas. But if you have 6 drones on gas and 5 on mins... then you can make slightly more mutas and even have some leftover mins for drones or lings or whatever. He doesn't have to mine all that gas if he's just going to waste it on scourge that do nothing. It's not about burning gas, it's about getting the right units.
JD had maybe 3-4 mutas at the end and 12 scourge, which is 450gas for the scourge and 150 mins or 600 resources in total. Skip 8 scourge, i.e. 400 resources in total and you have 2 more mutas. I'd think it'd be better to have 5-6 mutas and 4 scourge against what Hyuk had.
There's no point to making more than 4 scourge against a competent microer like Hyuk or Hydra or JD. But for some reason, JD seems to think he can out-micro everybody. This may have been true 2 years ago, but it's not true any more since a lot of people have caught up.
But again, he was down on econ and the only way he was getting ahead anyway was with some very, very lucky scourges. Which didn't happen. I'd personally still try to use mutas instead of scourge but either way is pretty uphill.
Well at least it wasn't a 12 hatch again. Call me crazy but I think things are looking up for Jaedong. I mean it will probably only take about 5 more eliminations from individual leagues caused by bo losses for his ego to finally disintegrate and for him to finally put that goddamn pool down at 9.
On July 20 2011 23:33 krndandaman wrote: I think jaedong's mistake came not from making alot of scourge, but overmaking lings. He had more than enough lings to defend hyuk's attack, I think if he had 2 more drones instead of 4lings he would've had adequate numbers to defend and enough drones to fight hyuk evenly.
He got unlucky with the scouting as well, it's hard to know exactly how many lings to make when you can't scout properly. It wasn't a bad game from JD, just a bit of bad luck and some excellent play from Hyuk.
He's going to crush hyvaa anyway, so this loss doesn't matter too much. And Hyuk can take care of Fantasy or something, like usual ^^
On July 21 2011 00:09 kuroshiroi wrote: He's going to crush hyvaa anyway, so this loss doesn't matter too much. And Hyuk can take care of Fantasy or something, like usual ^^
You want Fantasy to make another TK on Hyuk? You are so cruel human being...
On July 21 2011 00:39 Reyis wrote: i find it very amusing how most of the people here downgrading Hyuk and his overall skills too much. seriously people should realize who Hyuk is..
captain of the best team best zerg in his team third/fourth best player in the best team past accomplishments
lol it's just because he's an SKT zerg. SKT zerg hasn't been shit for quite a while. their zerg line is better than their current terran line. the only reason why people don't realise this is because of their strong history of terran. SKT's terran can be compared to KT rolster's protoss imo. 1 historically decent player who is underperforming.
On July 21 2011 00:09 kuroshiroi wrote: He's going to crush hyvaa anyway, so this loss doesn't matter too much. And Hyuk can take care of Fantasy or something, like usual ^^
You want Fantasy to make another TK on Hyuk? You are so cruel human being...
Other way around, I want Hyuk to TK Fantasy. It'll happen, just wait and see
Gah. I just don't get what happened to Jaedong's ZvZ. He went 31 - 10 (75.61%) between January 2010 and August 2010. Then we start the new Proleague season in October and between then and March he went 21 - 8 (72.41%) - but between April and now he's gone 6 - 8. It's like his ZvZ performance just fell off a cliff.
It's so frustrating seeing him knocked out of individual leagues repeatedly by what used to be his best match-up.
On July 21 2011 02:13 Mumei wrote: Gah. I just don't get what happened to Jaedong's ZvZ. He went 31 - 10 (75.61%) between January 2010 and August 2010. Then we start the new Proleague season in October and between then and March he went 21 - 8 (72.41%) - but between April and now he's gone 6 - 8. It's like his ZvZ performance just fell off a cliff.
It's so frustrating seeing him knocked out of individual leagues repeatedly by what used to be his best match-up.
He was just wayyy ahead of the curve in the matchup. 75.61% is nothing compared to the >80% career winrate he had for a while in JvZ. Eventually the other pros had to catch up. I think JD's TvZ has shown what matchup he's been focused on for a while now. And who can really blame him for it?
On July 21 2011 02:13 Mumei wrote: Gah. I just don't get what happened to Jaedong's ZvZ. He went 31 - 10 (75.61%) between January 2010 and August 2010. Then we start the new Proleague season in October and between then and March he went 21 - 8 (72.41%) - but between April and now he's gone 6 - 8. It's like his ZvZ performance just fell off a cliff.
It's so frustrating seeing him knocked out of individual leagues repeatedly by what used to be his best match-up.
It's always happened to the best of players: as you grow older, your skills just begin to diminish since everyone else becomes better and better.
For such a long time, JD has been incredibly consistent in his play. The longevity of his high caliber play could be compared to Nada's imo.
The rest of the zergs finally seem to be at a point where they might actually surpass him now. This is a testament of just how far ahead JD had been in ZvZ compared to the rest.
On July 21 2011 02:05 revy wrote: Anyone know when day 4 is? I trust it's tomorrow @ 19:30?
Friday 22nd 1930 KST. Why is Hyuk treated like this? Because of the way he looks? I think he is a decent player. He doesn't deserve this. Oh well, I think this is only among the foreign fans. I'm sure among Koreans and progamers he is nowhere as bad in reputation as foreigners make him out to be. A little respect guys.
On July 21 2011 02:13 Mumei wrote: Gah. I just don't get what happened to Jaedong's ZvZ. He went 31 - 10 (75.61%) between January 2010 and August 2010. Then we start the new Proleague season in October and between then and March he went 21 - 8 (72.41%) - but between April and now he's gone 6 - 8. It's like his ZvZ performance just fell off a cliff.
It's so frustrating seeing him knocked out of individual leagues repeatedly by what used to be his best match-up.
It's always happened to the best of players: as you grow older, your skills just begin to diminish since everyone else becomes better and better.
For such a long time, JD has been incredibly consistent in his play. The longevity of his high caliber play could be compared to Nada's imo.
The rest of the zergs finally seem to be at a point where they might actually surpass him now. This is a testament of just how far ahead JD had been in ZvZ compared to the rest.
I know that. It's just that it seemed to almost happen overnight, and while he's also been having issues with his vP, it hasn't been nearly as problematic for him as his vZ as been (in terms of knocking him out of tournaments). He went from over 80% in 2010 in vP to 55% so far this year. He went from over 75% in vZ in 2010 to also 55%. It's just such a huge decline. But if this were simply about his skills declining relative to his competition, you'd expect him to be doing worse in all of his match-ups, and yet his vT looks better than it has in years.
Is his ZvZ doing worse because he is doing worse (e.g. making worse decisions or more micro mistakes than before) or is it doing worse because his competition is suddenly significantly better than they were a month or two prior?
Someone once crunched the zvz numbers on the results of 9 pool / 12 pool / 12 hatch, and if my memory serves me well, you are far more likely to play a 9 pool and beat a 12 pool than to play a 12 pool and beat a 12 hatch.
Hyuk had an advantage and didn't screw up, as a Jaedong fan I'm not feeling too devastated.
On July 21 2011 02:22 Pvvned wrote: It's always happened to the best of players: as you grow older, your skills just begin to diminish since everyone else becomes better and better.
That's not consistent. Other people getting better does not cause Jaedong's skills to diminish. It is more likely that the relative strength changes as a result of others getting better. Or alternatively, that Jaedong is just getting worse at the matchup, due to practicing it less.
On July 21 2011 03:50 Mumei wrote: It's just that it seemed to almost happen overnight, and while he's also been having issues with his vP, it hasn't been nearly as problematic for him as his vZ as been (in terms of knocking him out of tournaments). He went from over 80% in 2010 in vP to 55% so far this year.
He has played 20 vP games this year, lost 9 and 3 of those 9 have been against Bisu. Coupled with a few losses in series (3 in total, bringing his losses up to 6/9), I wouldn't worry about his vP unless he's facing Bisu.
Really, the only games I'd say he shouldn't have lost were against Violet on Benzene (when JD tried to go for 2 base Hive for some reason, mostly because Ps were raping zergs at the time, iirc) and his recent loss against Horang2, which I'd chalk up to Horang2 playing a very unique style of vP which won't work twice. Not to mention that Horang2 is really fucking good too. The last loss out of the 9 was against Stork.
He's playing some stiff competition and still maintaining a winning ratio. Watch his games and tell me his ZvP is looking shaky. Series against Snow, arguably one of the best ZvP bo5s in history, series against Grape, completely one-sided, (the game on Monte Cristo didn't prove anything since the map is very P favoured, 2 player map with no easily defendable third), game against Jangbi, one of the best ZvPs this season.
tl;dr: You're looking at the stats too much. Look at the actual content as well.
ZvZ though, bad luck? Lack of practice? Lack of confidence after losing to Hydra? He'll bounce back when he wins a BO5 against a zerg, which statistically should happen in this month or the next.
On July 21 2011 04:54 kuroshiroi wrote:tl;dr: You're looking at the stats too much. Look at the actual content as well.
ZvZ though, bad luck? Lack of practice? Lack of confidence after losing to Hydra? He'll bounce back when he wins a BO5 against a zerg, which statistically should happen in this month or the next.
You're right. I'm not as worried about his vP for those reasons
OMG Build order loss for Jaedong. Makes me wonder how anyone could ever be at 80%. I guess back then, people actually sucked at ZvZ. Now, people can just push a bo win into a win.
Bo5 against snow: Jaedong never pulled drones to avoid storm drop, tried to brute force across bridges against reavers, careless mistakes. Against horang2: traded 2 bases for some mining time. Against jangbi: jangbi made no reavers, all archons so ofc lurkers will win.
His ZvT has been great, ZvP has been shaky, and ZvZ has been slightly better than average.
On July 21 2011 02:13 Mumei wrote: Gah. I just don't get what happened to Jaedong's ZvZ. He went 31 - 10 (75.61%) between January 2010 and August 2010. Then we start the new Proleague season in October and between then and March he went 21 - 8 (72.41%) - but between April and now he's gone 6 - 8. It's like his ZvZ performance just fell off a cliff.
It's so frustrating seeing him knocked out of individual leagues repeatedly by what used to be his best match-up.
On July 21 2011 02:13 Mumei wrote: Gah. I just don't get what happened to Jaedong's ZvZ. He went 31 - 10 (75.61%) between January 2010 and August 2010. Then we start the new Proleague season in October and between then and March he went 21 - 8 (72.41%) - but between April and now he's gone 6 - 8. It's like his ZvZ performance just fell off a cliff.
It's so frustrating seeing him knocked out of individual leagues repeatedly by what used to be his best match-up.
Wait what he's not knocked out yet is he?
No, I was referring to his losses to Hydra and ZerO.
On July 21 2011 02:13 Mumei wrote: Gah. I just don't get what happened to Jaedong's ZvZ. He went 31 - 10 (75.61%) between January 2010 and August 2010. Then we start the new Proleague season in October and between then and March he went 21 - 8 (72.41%) - but between April and now he's gone 6 - 8. It's like his ZvZ performance just fell off a cliff.
It's so frustrating seeing him knocked out of individual leagues repeatedly by what used to be his best match-up.
Well he went through a ZvZ slump of the same nature about a year and a half ago, but then came back strong. Progamers go through ups and downs, matchup trends change, they have to adjust their game, they can lose confidence in their decisions, etc; it isn't really cause for concern just yet.
Still, as a big Jaedong fan I'll admit it's very frustrating X_X
Game 1: Hiya Hyuked himself. Game 2: So intense, had me on the edge of my seat, Scourge/Muta hyuking. Game 3: OMG Science Vessel harass is so painful to watch! Clam Hyuking. Game 4: JD Hyuking big time. Hyuk played well.
On July 21 2011 16:12 Tippereth wrote: I'm almost as glad Baby won as I am sad Jaedong lost. I can't wait for Baby to mature into the next Flash. Calling it now.
Baby's shown promise since he arrived on the pro-scene, but he's been around long enough that I think it's safe to say that he'll never be the next Flash.
On July 21 2011 16:12 Tippereth wrote: I'm almost as glad Baby won as I am sad Jaedong lost. I can't wait for Baby to mature into the next Flash. Calling it now.
Baby's shown promise since he arrived on the pro-scene, but he's been around long enough that I think it's safe to say that he'll never be the next Flash.
I just looked into TLPD, and Baby and Flash actually made their debut as progamers in the offline preliminaries the very same day.
On July 21 2011 02:13 Mumei wrote: Gah. I just don't get what happened to Jaedong's ZvZ. He went 31 - 10 (75.61%) between January 2010 and August 2010. Then we start the new Proleague season in October and between then and March he went 21 - 8 (72.41%) - but between April and now he's gone 6 - 8. It's like his ZvZ performance just fell off a cliff.
It's so frustrating seeing him knocked out of individual leagues repeatedly by what used to be his best match-up.
It's always happened to the best of players: as you grow older, your skills just begin to diminish since everyone else becomes better and better.
For such a long time, JD has been incredibly consistent in his play. The longevity of his high caliber play could be compared to Nada's imo.
The rest of the zergs finally seem to be at a point where they might actually surpass him now. This is a testament of just how far ahead JD had been in ZvZ compared to the rest.
I know that. It's just that it seemed to almost happen overnight, and while he's also been having issues with his vP, it hasn't been nearly as problematic for him as his vZ as been (in terms of knocking him out of tournaments). He went from over 80% in 2010 in vP to 55% so far this year. He went from over 75% in vZ in 2010 to also 55%. It's just such a huge decline. But if this were simply about his skills declining relative to his competition, you'd expect him to be doing worse in all of his match-ups, and yet his vT looks better than it has in years.
Is his ZvZ doing worse because he is doing worse (e.g. making worse decisions or more micro mistakes than before) or is it doing worse because his competition is suddenly significantly better than they were a month or two prior?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V3tXk.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KWEUV.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/6.jpg)
Fantasy <Gladiator> ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/205.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/623.jpg)
Shine <New Bloody Ridge>![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/610.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/76.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/575.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/211.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/myWbu.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6U11p.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2lKEg.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif)
