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On April 26 2011 08:56 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 08:37 Seraphic wrote:
Oh please, we ALL know Bisu has always been odd in his strength compared to other Toss players. That's why everyone still consider him the best. You're not the most decorated Protoss player in BW without doing something right.
He is still considered S-class to most players. Flash is still obviously better, and just because JD won vs Flash this time, won't count again if they met up again in MSL.
Just ask yourselves, when was the last time, the LAST time ANY Protoss won a Starleague? It goes all the way back to 09 w/ 6 Dragons. Since then, it was all Flash and JD with little Hydra & Effort in the middle. Stork and Bisu gives the Protoss there best chance to win, and yet they both have their weakness that seems to be the only reason why they aren't able to get there anymore. (Except for Stork, but getting 3-0ed by Fantasy is...uh... head scratcher.)
So please stop saying Bisu lost his mojo. If Bisu was not in the Group of (D)eath, I'm almost certain he could have passed to at least round 8. He is, beyond anyone, I noticed seems to be fairly unlucky when it comes to Starleagues. Don't think it helps that the past winner (Hydra) and runner-up (Great) were Zergs. If they said they weren't afraid of Bisu then they wouldn't have throw the group together in the first place. bisu HAD lost his mojo (and please don't talk about his supposed bad luck in starleagues. see: picking 3 zergs then losing to all but magma. see: getting eliminated by hero, then playing himself back in due to Backho's injury). Then SK decided to consistently spoon feed him advantageous matchups and played to his strengths to slowly replenish his lost confidence. Bisu's success as of late is more of a product of good coaching than an improvement in skill, because the skill has remained pretty much constant. When Leta first start making a name for himself back in early 2009 there was a pretty similar thing. Good player, but swollen with good confidence thanks to an amazing proleague record fueled by good coaching decisions. (I think he was at like an 80+ percent win rate with 2 total games against protoss).
Well, clearly Flash had lost his mojo the same way?
Got himself stomped in the SWL finals (its a finals, he had 3 weeks to prepare, he must have been prepared to some extent, no matter how much time he spent on preparation for his SL).
Stomped by Jaedong again in MSL, well at least he made it out of there.
Stomped by a "King of Losing" in SPL, you serious? @.@.
God? Ultimate Weapon? Lol.
Even his fabled vZ n vP cant even beat a notoriously weak lost-mojo-Bisu vT in win-rate this whole season.
I say False-God, Average Weapon.
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On April 26 2011 09:06 Seraphic wrote:
it isn't like I don't agree with you d_so but is there any other Toss players out right now that has an actual, real chance for Gold in MSL?
Stork is probably going to lose to Hydra, then it'll be down to Grape/Horang2 and I honestly do not see the two of them beat Flash/JD/Hydra (Stork if he wins).
I just wonder how long will this last?
i think pvt needs a paradigm shift before P has any real chance for a starleague gold, similar to how queens are shaking things up in zvt. And like queens, i suspect it's right beneath our noses, we're just too arrogant to see it.
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On April 26 2011 09:18 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 08:56 d_so wrote:On April 26 2011 08:37 Seraphic wrote:
Oh please, we ALL know Bisu has always been odd in his strength compared to other Toss players. That's why everyone still consider him the best. You're not the most decorated Protoss player in BW without doing something right.
He is still considered S-class to most players. Flash is still obviously better, and just because JD won vs Flash this time, won't count again if they met up again in MSL.
Just ask yourselves, when was the last time, the LAST time ANY Protoss won a Starleague? It goes all the way back to 09 w/ 6 Dragons. Since then, it was all Flash and JD with little Hydra & Effort in the middle. Stork and Bisu gives the Protoss there best chance to win, and yet they both have their weakness that seems to be the only reason why they aren't able to get there anymore. (Except for Stork, but getting 3-0ed by Fantasy is...uh... head scratcher.)
So please stop saying Bisu lost his mojo. If Bisu was not in the Group of (D)eath, I'm almost certain he could have passed to at least round 8. He is, beyond anyone, I noticed seems to be fairly unlucky when it comes to Starleagues. Don't think it helps that the past winner (Hydra) and runner-up (Great) were Zergs. If they said they weren't afraid of Bisu then they wouldn't have throw the group together in the first place. bisu HAD lost his mojo (and please don't talk about his supposed bad luck in starleagues. see: picking 3 zergs then losing to all but magma. see: getting eliminated by hero, then playing himself back in due to Backho's injury). Then SK decided to consistently spoon feed him advantageous matchups and played to his strengths to slowly replenish his lost confidence. Bisu's success as of late is more of a product of good coaching than an improvement in skill, because the skill has remained pretty much constant. When Leta first start making a name for himself back in early 2009 there was a pretty similar thing. Good player, but swollen with good confidence thanks to an amazing proleague record fueled by good coaching decisions. (I think he was at like an 80+ percent win rate with 2 total games against protoss). Well, clearly Flash had lost his mojo the same way? Got himself stomped in the SWL finals (its a finals, he had 3 weeks to prepare, he must have been prepared to some extent, no matter how much time he spent on preparation for his SL). Stomped by Jaedong again in MSL, well at least he made it out of there. Stomped by a "King of Losing" in SPL, you serious? @.@. God? Ultimate Weapon? Lol. Even his fabled vZ n vP cant even beat a notoriously weak lost-mojo-Bisu vT in win-rate this whole season. I say False-God, Average Weapon.
i don't understand why my point about bisu compels you to make a comparison with flash.
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Merely some of my own observation, as i observed some relevance? No ill intentions of course, probably the same way your observation on Bisu was made 
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watched the vods
,,,
YEASAYSAS
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On April 26 2011 09:22 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 09:06 Seraphic wrote:
it isn't like I don't agree with you d_so but is there any other Toss players out right now that has an actual, real chance for Gold in MSL?
Stork is probably going to lose to Hydra, then it'll be down to Grape/Horang2 and I honestly do not see the two of them beat Flash/JD/Hydra (Stork if he wins).
I just wonder how long will this last? i think pvt needs a paradigm shift before P has any real chance for a starleague gold, similar to how queens are shaking things up in zvt. And like queens, i suspect it's right beneath our noses, we're just too arrogant to see it.
I'm thinking mass scouts is the answer to PvT.
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On April 26 2011 09:22 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 09:06 Seraphic wrote:
it isn't like I don't agree with you d_so but is there any other Toss players out right now that has an actual, real chance for Gold in MSL?
Stork is probably going to lose to Hydra, then it'll be down to Grape/Horang2 and I honestly do not see the two of them beat Flash/JD/Hydra (Stork if he wins).
I just wonder how long will this last? i think pvt needs a paradigm shift before P has any real chance for a starleague gold, similar to how queens are shaking things up in zvt. And like queens, i suspect it's right beneath our noses, we're just too arrogant to see it.
=( I hope the shift happens soon
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Watching Best v.s. Flash made my day. It was like Flash's Great Wall of China v.s. Thor's Hammer.
Best's macro is the world's best. Chill was sent down my spine as Best remaxed by the time his first army perished. The endless stream of yellow thunder bolts continuously smashed against Flash's turtle shell until nothing but bare pink flesh remains, exposed for all to ravage.
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I don't know honestly, BeSt is the Monster after all. Maybe, the Monster woke up after being asleep or something aka slumping (not funny i know -.-)
PvT is his thing. Will always call BeSt aka Monster despite his other nicknames.
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On April 26 2011 10:44 Seraphic wrote:
I don't know honestly, BeSt is the Monster after all. Maybe, the Monster woke up after being asleep or something aka slumping (not funny i know -.-)
PvT is his thing. Will always call BeSt aka Monster despite his other nicknames.
Call him the Devil's Apprentice, its better than "Monster". Plus that nickname is saved only for IloveOov and Flash
Ugh, I HATE BeSt's name though. If it weren't for "BeSt", he would be my favorite Protoss to watch!
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On April 26 2011 10:20 Yxes2211 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 09:22 d_so wrote:On April 26 2011 09:06 Seraphic wrote:
it isn't like I don't agree with you d_so but is there any other Toss players out right now that has an actual, real chance for Gold in MSL?
Stork is probably going to lose to Hydra, then it'll be down to Grape/Horang2 and I honestly do not see the two of them beat Flash/JD/Hydra (Stork if he wins).
I just wonder how long will this last? i think pvt needs a paradigm shift before P has any real chance for a starleague gold, similar to how queens are shaking things up in zvt. And like queens, i suspect it's right beneath our noses, we're just too arrogant to see it. I'm thinking mass scouts is the answer to PvT.
maybe not mass scouts, but how about a scout ferrying a shuttle to stop the wraith from sniping it? perhaps unpractical in current build orders, but as time goes on i think starcraft is showing that no units themselves are useless, it's all about incorporating a build to make them work.
I hope the change will be focused on late game reavers. The reason why I think this is because so many times you see a huge protoss force recalled into a terran base, all to kill one armory or a a few supply depots. I understand the main strength of recalls is to force the terran back to defend, but wouldnt a few reavers in the mix of the recalled army pay huge dividends in damaging terran's structures faster and more effectively? /theorycraft
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On April 26 2011 08:56 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 08:37 Seraphic wrote:
Oh please, we ALL know Bisu has always been odd in his strength compared to other Toss players. That's why everyone still consider him the best. You're not the most decorated Protoss player in BW without doing something right.
He is still considered S-class to most players. Flash is still obviously better, and just because JD won vs Flash this time, won't count again if they met up again in MSL.
Just ask yourselves, when was the last time, the LAST time ANY Protoss won a Starleague? It goes all the way back to 09 w/ 6 Dragons. Since then, it was all Flash and JD with little Hydra & Effort in the middle. Stork and Bisu gives the Protoss there best chance to win, and yet they both have their weakness that seems to be the only reason why they aren't able to get there anymore. (Except for Stork, but getting 3-0ed by Fantasy is...uh... head scratcher.)
So please stop saying Bisu lost his mojo. If Bisu was not in the Group of (D)eath, I'm almost certain he could have passed to at least round 8. He is, beyond anyone, I noticed seems to be fairly unlucky when it comes to Starleagues. Don't think it helps that the past winner (Hydra) and runner-up (Great) were Zergs. If they said they weren't afraid of Bisu then they wouldn't have throw the group together in the first place. bisu HAD lost his mojo (and please don't talk about his supposed bad luck in starleagues. see: picking 3 zergs then losing to all but magma. see: getting eliminated by hero, then playing himself back in due to Backho's injury). Then SK decided to consistently spoon feed him advantageous matchups and played to his strengths to slowly replenish his lost confidence. Bisu's success as of late is more of a product of good coaching than an improvement in skill, because the skill has remained pretty much constant. When Leta first start making a name for himself back in early 2009 there was a pretty similar thing. Good player, but swollen with good confidence thanks to an amazing proleague record fueled by good coaching decisions. (I think he was at like an 80+ percent win rate with 2 total games against protoss).
I'm about to go off tangent right now (at least in relation to the KT vs. SKT game), but Starcraft is much more luck based compared to other [athletic] sports.
We have a map pool that rotates (as opposed to a court/field/stadium with consistent measurements), 3 races that are near impossible to make balanced, and a tournament format that isn't rigorous because every player doesn't have to face one another; the initial games aren't even played on the same map.
It's pure speculation, but had the ro32 consisted of each player doing a bo3 against everyone else in their group, instead of the round robin format, Starcraft history would look very different than it does today.
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I just realized that SKT just had great luck or great preperation(as usual) in this series. They managed to give Ssak a TvT, give Soo a ZvP(his best MU, but stats just sucked that game), Best vs Flash, Fantasy vs Action and Bisu vs C-H(Action's ZvP is good enough to stand a chance against Bisu and a Woongjin zerg vs a terran that can't bio is bad, so switching those favors SKT more), and able to ZvZ Perfective. All 6 games are possibly the worst possible situation for KT and SKT knew(or guessed really really good) who are KT going to send out for each map. SKT is not just deep, but also prepared(so prepared that they can't even practice for the MSL, and OSL isn't even starting yet). GJ.
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On April 26 2011 14:14 NicksonReyes wrote:
I just realized that SKT just had great luck or great preperation(as usual) in this series. They managed to give Ssak a TvT, give Soo a ZvP(his best MU, but stats just sucked that game), Best vs Flash, Fantasy vs Action and Bisu vs C-H(Action's ZvP is good enough to stand a chance against Bisu and a Woongjin zerg vs a terran that can't bio is bad, so switching those favors SKT more), and able to ZvZ Perfective. All 6 games are possibly the worst possible situation for KT and SKT knew(or guessed really really good) who are KT going to send out for each map. SKT is not just deep, but also prepared(so prepared that they can't practice for the MSL, and OSL isn't even starting yet). GJ.
I hope kt recover itself by smashing stx tomorrow....
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10387 Posts
Bisu beat Flash because he busted through a tiny choke that Flash didn't expect him to go through.
Best beat Flash because he busted through a tiny choke that Flash didn't expect him to go through.
I see a pattern here..
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Does anyone know where to find VODs of these games?
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On April 26 2011 16:39 PoP wrote:
Does anyone know where to find VODs of these games?
head on to the small vod thread ?
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On April 26 2011 16:40 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 16:39 PoP wrote:
Does anyone know where to find VODs of these games? head on to the small vod thread ?
Oh thanks Always check nevake and torrents but forget about SVT...
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On April 26 2011 16:21 ArvickHero wrote:
Bisu beat Flash because he busted through a tiny choke that Flash didn't expect him to go through.
Best beat Flash because he busted through a tiny choke that Flash didn't expect him to go through.
I see a pattern here..
Bisu beat Flash because Flash had already lost due to an enormous economic disadvantage after losing many scvs early game. Flash couldn't hold with so little units and that's it.
BeSt beat Flash because he just outplayed him, and because he cleverly prevented Flash to get the informations he needed to adjust early mid game.
Really different stories. Bisu has been clever, BeSt has been the macro monster he can be when he is in a good mood.
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This thread reminds me of like 2 or 3 months ago when Stork was on top of the game. A lot of protoss lovers step up, tell everybody how bad JD and Flash lost, how close the games their protoss heros lost were and how well they played anyhow, and that #1 PR is TOTALLY justified etc blabla. Two weeks later the protoss in question gets stomped like hell. Two months later, repeat. Annoying.
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EPT
