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On July 01 2010 19:31 McDonalds wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 19:26 moopie wrote:On July 01 2010 19:24 McDonalds wrote:On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote:
I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them. Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season? The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season" So basically you're saying that one game against Effort today is more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago and thirteen games against other zerg opponents over time. I'd say that if he lost three times to nothing but zerglings then his deficiency is DEFENSE AGAINST ZERGLINGS. But that isn't what happened.
I think this game can be used as a good example of opposition understanding how flash plays and knowing how to counter it. The others were good examples to flash to perhaps hold his horses on the greedy play from time to time and not lose to stupid ling all ins because of bad positioning and the like. This game actually displayed something entirely different that hopefully Flash can learn from. People understand his play and while before his mechanics and star sense might have carried him to victory, that simply might not be the case any longer so he'll have to mix it up.
edit: those other 13 games, the majority being wins, don't teach you nearly as much as your losses do.
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On July 01 2010 19:31 McDonalds wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 19:26 moopie wrote:On July 01 2010 19:24 McDonalds wrote:On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote:
I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them. Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season? The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season" So basically you're saying that one game against Effort today is more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago and thirteen games against other zerg opponents over time. I'd say that if he lost three times to nothing but zerglings then his deficiency is DEFENSE AGAINST ZERGLINGS. But that isn't what happened.
No, I'm merely commenting on you saying he needs to learn to TvZ better. I agreed above (edited just prior to your post) that his lategame vZ needs work, but to say that he should have expected a lategame deficiency in his play from his proleague games and results (which he won all but 2, and 1 was due to a scouting error with effort being crafty) isn't very logical. Players don't often know what to work on until they are shown the error of their ways.
In the finals, flash got greedy and effort channeled his inner-kwanro, and that was that. I'm sure flash learned from it for his tvz openings (hence the faster scouting usually). I don't think its logical to say that based on his results (especially lategame TvZ) it's obvious to him what his flaws are in order to improve them. Games like these certainly help. I don't even know why you pointed out Flash's entire proleague season as things he should have learned from, he raped zergs left and right all year there.
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On July 01 2010 19:23 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 19:19 Scaramanga wrote:On July 01 2010 19:17 Jackal03 wrote:
just woke up to see the results, the obvious happended (in all games) Silly cj fan Why is that silly? Effort has won 5 of the 7 games they have played lately. Or did Flash lose all of those 5 games, not Effort winning them? lol
Scara has a point, sorry.
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On July 01 2010 19:31 McDonalds wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 19:26 moopie wrote:On July 01 2010 19:24 McDonalds wrote:On July 01 2010 19:21 J1.au wrote:
I think it was smart of Flash to place Effort in his group. Now he knows his vZ deficiencies and can correct them. Shouldn't he have known this after their last encounter? Or after the entire Proleague season? The finals vs effort he lost to lings (and his own greedy play), and then in the pl match, with valks vs lurkers (which you can't learn much from other than "don't do that"), and here is your "entire Proleague season" So basically you're saying that one game against Effort today is more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago and thirteen games against zerg opponents over time. I'd say that if he lost three times to nothing but zerglings then his deficiency is DEFENSE AGAINST ZERGLINGS. But that isn't what happened.
Games with extensive macro like this one surely help him understand his opponents a lot more. None of the 5 games they play in OSL grand finals got into late game. So it's not like it's "more valuable to him than five games against Effort a while ago", but it adds up a lot to his experience.
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Well I can't say that I went back and checked on the durations of all of the Proleague games to determine how many of them reached the late game but I think I disagree with the assertion that you learn significantly more from losses than from wins. You might be tempted into overconfidence by winning constantly but I think that if he is smart then he reviews all of his games regardless of the outcome to see where he succeeded and where he could have done better. I didn't mean to suggest that his match today wasn't useful to him, just that it was an oversimplification to say that it would teach him about all of his deficiencies in the matchup.
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So OP didn't update  what happened?
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The wallpaper, of Flash and Effort.
Flash have aeroplane. Effort have wings.
Give me feeling like high technology terminator vs some kind of Alien Devil.
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OP didnt update the result..
Anyone care to write the results here? pls spoiler that as well..
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There are results posted a page back.
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Result Spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +Effort 2-0, Win S2, Win Flash
Flash 2-1, Win Classic Lose Effort Win S2
S2 1-2, Lose Effort, Win Classic, Lose Flash
Class 0-2 Lose Flash, Lose S2
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s2 was so close! i still believe in him :D
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
wow effort made flash look mortal ! lol well i haven't been watching any of flashes ace game losses recently though :x but still only 1 month ish ago flash was like insane terminator guy.
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On July 01 2010 19:36 deL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 19:23 khellian wrote:On July 01 2010 19:19 Scaramanga wrote:On July 01 2010 19:17 Jackal03 wrote:
just woke up to see the results, the obvious happended (in all games) Silly cj fan Why is that silly? Effort has won 5 of the 7 games they have played lately. Or did Flash lose all of those 5 games, not Effort winning them? lol Scara has a point, sorry.
Coming from the KT fan. Yeah, that holds a lot of weight.
No offense I think both sides should give it a rest. We get it already. You like Flash and he likes Effort. Take the sly remarks elsewhere. ._.
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On July 01 2010 19:23 khellian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 19:19 Scaramanga wrote:On July 01 2010 19:17 Jackal03 wrote:
just woke up to see the results, the obvious happended (in all games) Silly cj fan Why is that silly? Effort has won 5 of the 7 games they have played lately. Or did Flash lose all of those 5 games, not Effort winning them? lol
Scara is right. Games > results. EffOrt clearly didn't win those 5 out of 7 games because he was/is the better player, that much is plain. So based on their skill level it's still wrong to assume EffOrt was the favorite against Flash.
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On July 01 2010 19:13 Highways wrote:
Mech is the biggest disgrace in Starcraft.
Sit back and do nothing, Zerg has to get the attack perfectly right (which is really hard) else the overpowered mech eats up the Zerg army.
After that 1a2a3a your way to victory.
Flash raping S2 is hardly proof that mech is imba. If it was, terrans would be using it all the time but they don't because it isn't that easy to pull off. Try playing with it, it's hardly doing nothing.
Effort's win today proves nothing except he had a really sneaky build that he abused to get a massive early game lead and held on to win with that advantage. Similar to the Snow vs Flash game on FS or Stork vs Flash on HBR; all tricked flash into turtling whilst they econ cheesed.
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France2061 Posts
On July 01 2010 23:00 Scarecrow wrote:
Effort's win today proves nothing except he had a really sneaky build that he abused to get a massive early game lead and held on to win with that advantage. Similar to the Snow vs Flash game on FS or Stork vs Flash on HBR; all tricked flash into turtling whilst they econ cheesed.
It must be good to believe that your favorite player can only lose to cheese. First, Effort didn't cheese -- he won the mind games decisively. He made Flash play defensively, which allowed him to seize an econ advantage. Snow made Flash overcommit to defense, and thus he was able to take the lead. That's not cheese. Second, in the late game Flash was setting up his four base into mass tanks turtle, which has allowed him to consistently win against Zergs even when at a sizeable starting disadvantage, but Effort wasn't taking any of it and swiftly broke it. Straight up outplayed him.
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As an Effort fan, I'm psyched to see him playing so strong. I saw his MSL group and thought it was probably over right there haha. I've learned my lesson.
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On July 01 2010 23:00 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 19:13 Highways wrote:
Mech is the biggest disgrace in Starcraft.
Sit back and do nothing, Zerg has to get the attack perfectly right (which is really hard) else the overpowered mech eats up the Zerg army.
After that 1a2a3a your way to victory. Flash raping S2 is hardly proof that mech is imba. If it was, terrans would be using it all the time but they don't because it isn't that easy to pull off. Try playing with it, it's hardly doing nothing.
Effort's win today proves nothing except he had a really sneaky build that he abused to get a massive early game lead and held on to win with that advantage. Similar to the Snow vs Flash game on FS or Stork vs Flash on HBR; all tricked flash into turtling whilst they econ cheesed.
How blinded by fan boyism can you get.
Edit: Also mech is much easier to pull off than bio from a macro and micro point of view, the only thing right about this post though is that it is indeed not imba.
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EPT
