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For those arguing about comparing old performances to late it's pretty obvious that the same dominance in a later, more developed stage, is more impressive.
The reason for it is that we are humans, we have limitations.
The closer everyone gets to "perfection" the harder it is for one to dominate.
It was more likely that one would dominate back in the days than it is now (if you agree that we as humans actually have limitations to how well we can possibly play starcraft, even though its impossible to determine that exact point there must be one).
Since our skill can only move between the weakest and strongest possible point in skill-level its more likely that one players skill is far ahead of others when we still have much to improve.
Once the players get closer to the highest point it's less likely that one would be far ahead of others.
The same way it's more likely to dominate now than it would be five years from now if SC is still played.
We're simply closer to perfection now than 5 years ago at playing starcraft.
I would think it works this way in everything we do, not just starcraft.
Isn't this logical?
I'm not stating this as a fact, feel free to prove me wrong.
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On April 05 2010 12:50 StylishVODs wrote:
For those arguing about comparing old performances to late it's pretty obvious that the same dominance in a later, more developed stage, is more impressive.
The reason for it is that we are humans, we have limitations.
The closer everyone gets to "perfection" the harder it is for one to dominate.
It was more likely that one would dominate back in the days than it is now (if you agree that we as humans actually have limitations to how well we can possibly play starcraft, even though its impossible to determine that exact point there must be one).
Since our skill can only move between the weakest and strongest possible point in skill-level its more likely that one players skill is far ahead of others when we still have much to improve.
Once the players get closer to the highest point it's less likely that one would be far ahead of others.
The same way it's more likely to dominate now than it would be five years from now if SC is still played.
We're simply closer to perfection now than 5 years ago at playing starcraft.
I would think it works this way in everything we do, not just starcraft.
Isn't this logical?
I'm not stating this as a fact, feel free to prove me wrong.
I think this is true. Even Jaedong (I think) has said, when asked about the bonjwa debate, that it's harder nowadays to be that dominant because more players are better.
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Flash fans need to be patient and must wait till he wins more leagues. Bisu's run 1 and a half years ago was almost as sick and he was pretty much invincible(untill he faced JD in the bo5 of course then the debate for bonjwa was over)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 05 2010 15:30 samachking wrote:
Flash fans need to be patient and must wait till he wins more leagues. Bisu's run 1 and a half years ago was almost as sick and he was pretty much invincible(untill he faced JD in the bo5 of course then the debate for bonjwa was over)
mmm I think Bisu's run ended when he lost to Mind lol. He was never able to fully assert dominance after that.
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On April 05 2010 17:17 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 15:30 samachking wrote:
Flash fans need to be patient and must wait till he wins more leagues. Bisu's run 1 and a half years ago was almost as sick and he was pretty much invincible(untill he faced JD in the bo5 of course then the debate for bonjwa was over) mmm I think Bisu's run ended when he lost to Mind lol. He was never able to fully assert dominance after that.
I always forget about that final, but it was really fun to watch live. Pretty underrated because Mind fell off so hard. I usually forget Mind is even a MSL winner O_O
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On April 05 2010 17:17 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 15:30 samachking wrote:
Flash fans need to be patient and must wait till he wins more leagues. Bisu's run 1 and a half years ago was almost as sick and he was pretty much invincible(untill he faced JD in the bo5 of course then the debate for bonjwa was over) mmm I think Bisu's run ended when he lost to Mind lol. He was never able to fully assert dominance after that.
oh I am talking about the dragons season and not his first 3 MSL run. Where he had 78% winrate over 90 or so games with 2 golds. If you say his dominance ended back then, you can easily apply the same thing to Flash.
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Just watched the games and gotta feel sorry for Jaehoon.
Don't know what else he could have done in that game. =/
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On April 05 2010 15:30 samachking wrote:
Flash fans need to be patient and must wait till he wins more leagues. Bisu's run 1 and a half years ago was almost as sick and he was pretty much invincible(untill he faced JD in the bo5 of course then the debate for bonjwa was over)
Jaedong and Bisu never had a Kespa sanctioned BO5 though. O.o
The Gom special match didn't mean much as Bisu screwed up his "hold" command on the zealot. Otherwise, he would have gained BO advantage over Jaedong's speedling build in the 5th round.
As far as I am concerned, Bisu had two shots at the B-word. The first shot was when he reached 3 back to back MSL finals, 2 back to back gold, and was in the semifinal of the OSL. He lost to Mind, settled for 3rd place in OSL and was sent to a year long slump immediately afterward.
The second shot was after his revival, taking his 3rd MSL gold and reached the semifinal of the OSL. Then he got raped by Fantasy 0-3.
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On April 03 2010 23:05 Roffles wrote:
Flash is doing well. He's shown that for the last season and a half, he's been able to sustain a high level of play that's comparable to the legends of the past.
But when you look back, you see that Savior was destroying throughout like 4-5 MSLs, Oov won like 3 MSLs in a row and was raping for an entire year. When Flash reaches those levels, I'll crown his ass. But till then, people need to stop sucking his dick like he's a saint or some shit like that.
Btw, nothing can touch Oov and his fucking sick start to his progaming career. When you have 85%+ in every god damn matchup through like 20 games in each, that's just sick.
Hey can anyone find that screenshot when Oov was about to play a game, and they had his stats next to him and it was like TvZ 95%, TvT 87% TvP 88%?
I LOLED SO HARD when I first saw that... absolutely ridiculous...
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On April 06 2010 01:01 [Azn]Nada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:05 Roffles wrote:
Flash is doing well. He's shown that for the last season and a half, he's been able to sustain a high level of play that's comparable to the legends of the past.
But when you look back, you see that Savior was destroying throughout like 4-5 MSLs, Oov won like 3 MSLs in a row and was raping for an entire year. When Flash reaches those levels, I'll crown his ass. But till then, people need to stop sucking his dick like he's a saint or some shit like that.
Btw, nothing can touch Oov and his fucking sick start to his progaming career. When you have 85%+ in every god damn matchup through like 20 games in each, that's just sick. Hey can anyone find that screenshot when Oov was about to play a game, and they had his stats next to him and it was like TvZ 95%, TvT 87% TvP 88%? I LOLED SO HARD when I first saw that... absolutely ridiculous...
Well, it was during the time that only he macro.
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flash is too good
the WL is so stacked in KT's favor haha
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On April 05 2010 15:30 samachking wrote:
Flash fans need to be patient and must wait till he wins more leagues. Bisu's run 1 and a half years ago was almost as sick and he was pretty much invincible(untill he faced JD in the bo5 of course then the debate for bonjwa was over)
Almost!
While I have to agree that flash fan's might need to be more patient because of the lack in starleaguewins, the whole reason that this debate exploded in this thread was because the commentators called him above bonjwa level.
Patient or not, at this time and after the commentators said so, it's not really surprising that the discussion is being this heated.
The last two pages of his games in TLPD are more impressive than any others. Bisu jaedong and all the bonjwas never had such win ratio over so many games, whatever the reasons may be.
Flash is playing above 2400 ELO and keeps raising it even though most of the players are 200 ELO below him.
His aura right now is very much like the aura was around savior in his prime.
You just don't expect him to lose, and he doesn't.
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On April 05 2010 09:36 theramstoss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 08:50 Wings wrote:On April 05 2010 07:18 theramstoss wrote:
Why not just wait for the Korean SC community to declare someone bonjwa instead of pointless arguing. Because the OGN commentators have all already agreed out loud that Flash is "probably beyond Bonjwa" after he (not KT) won WL? but I'm personally tired of this talk. Can we talk about something else? Like betting who can take a game off Flash before he inevitably wins Golden Mouse? John McEnroe can declare Federer the greatest of all time after he wins the 6th wimbledon but that doesn't mean the fans agree. The OGN commentators are not the same as the Korean SC community. Jaedong and bisu have both had their periods of dominance just like flash is having his now. It's premature to call him bonjwa.
You have a pretty horrible analogy there. 5 OGN commentators all calling Flash "beyond bonjwa" does not equate to one single John McEnroe; the analogy would rather be the majority of the set of tennis commentators/legends (including say Sampras Laver Agassi etc.) calling Federer the GOAT. I actually find it amusing you use Federer of all people, because he of course has been declared the GOAT by the aforementioned people, which is somewhat comparable to OGN praising Flash. You say the OGN commentators are not the same as the Korean SC community; well, likewise, tennis commentators/legends are not the same as the tennis community. Does that mean that those guys are wrong? No. You might say OGN is not the central figure in progaming, but then you'd be wrong. Also, these OGN commentators have been casting/playing since progaming first began over a decade ago, and several of them are legends and champions. These guys are qualified; OGN leads the progaming scene; your argument is invalid.
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I'm only holding off on the B-word because Flash lost the previous MSL to his closest rival. As soon as the current OSL/MSL are over, I'm sure his results will speak for themselves.
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I only don't call Flash Bonjwa because Jaedong still has a solid chance of beating him. Against any other player, there's no doubt. Despite me being a ****ing hardcoreJaedong fanboy, JD's just not at a high enough level for him and Flash to be considered double Bonjwa.
I bet a part of why Flash is doing so well is the sheer intimidation factor he has against his opponents. Seriously, if you're going up against him, you probably have the mindset that you already lost.
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I think Stork has a good chance of beating Flash too, imo tbh.
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Not if he can't handle Baby.
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On April 07 2010 04:34 NonFactor wrote:
I think Stork has a good chance of beating Flash too, imo tbh.
... are you kidding me? Not in his recent form. Stork needs to climb back to the top if he wants a shot at the Final Boss. Stork got raped in his group a few nights ago. Sure, Baby is good, but if Stork can't even beat Baby, how can he even scratch Flash?
edit: dammit TwoToneTerran lol beat me to it
edit#2: I just remembered Stork went 0-2 in his MSL group, losing to Hydra and MVP.
...
HYDRA AND MVP?!
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9071 Posts
On April 06 2010 04:36 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 15:30 samachking wrote:
Flash fans need to be patient and must wait till he wins more leagues. Bisu's run 1 and a half years ago was almost as sick and he was pretty much invincible(untill he faced JD in the bo5 of course then the debate for bonjwa was over) Almost! While I have to agree that flash fan's might need to be more patient because of the lack in starleaguewins, the whole reason that this debate exploded in this thread was because the commentators called him above bonjwa level. Patient or not, at this time and after the commentators said so, it's not really surprising that the discussion is being this heated. The last two pages of his games in TLPD are more impressive than any others. Bisu jaedong and all the bonjwas never had such win ratio over so many games, whatever the reasons may be. Flash is playing above 2400 ELO and keeps raising it even though most of the players are 200 ELO below him. His aura right now is very much like the aura was around savior in his prime. You just don't expect him to lose, and he doesn't.
well, its true, Flash indeed looks unbeatable atm, but he needs to keep this momentum for the season to come. In 2007 Bisu reached 3 finals in a row, and was 2 games away from the b-word status, but failed against mind. I think that was the reason the discussion about him joining the stardom heated so much after ClubDay - was he reclaming his throne or was it just a spark of his former glory. Yes, he wasnt near the flash's winning percentage atm, but he was really close to unbeatable, or at least you "knew" he would win at the end - check his series vs Hwasin to see what I mean.
I really hope Flash keeps winning, I want him to be a bonjwa
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EPT
