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So recently lurkerling has become more common in ZvP and I'm wondering why 5 hatch hydra has been the standard build as opposed to this build. The game can still continue into the hydra mutalisk phase but the earlier lurkers allows the zerg to deny a 3rd base easily.
Is their a timing window the Protoss can exploit that makes this build weak?
+ Show Spoiler [ Jaedong Vod] +
+ Show Spoiler [Effort Vod] +
So the build order is the same as a 5 hatch hydra but you get the lurker upgrade first.
They used the lurkerling force to deny a 3rd and either get +1 carapace and continue lurkerling (Effort) or get +1 missile and mass hydras (Jaedong).
Why is it that this lurkerling build is regaining popularity?
Is their a certain reason why a player would transition into Hydras rather then continue lurkerling?
+ Show Spoiler [Another Effort Vod] +
The first effort vod showed him sticking to lurkerling + mutas while the 2nd one transitioned back into hydras. Can anyone identify why he made that choice? Is it that he was trying to press his advantage?
Heartbreak ridge looks really strong for lurkerling so why would you want to transition to hydras here?
I tried this build a few times at the D level and it allowed me to prevent a 3rd base and contain as they don't have observers. So far it seems really safe as muta sniping and storm dodging weren't a big part of the build.
If they do see the build coming it will still hurt them as they will have to triple tech.
So ya, I'd like feedback on the viability of this build as the standard ZvP way.
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I thought zergs transition into whatever build based on what the Protoss is doing. Don't quote me on this though, I don't really have a clue
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Lurkerling is certainly a good opening but you'll need to get your second gas sooner, which makes it a less economic opening. It's equivalent to a goon opening by Protoss. Although if you can deny the third by Protoss and contain him in his base until he gets ob, it's well worth it.
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In the second game P had 6 corsairs fairly early on, so maybe that made Effort go for hydras rather than mutas.
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It's such a good build imo! It looks no different from a 5 hatch hydra, so the only way to 'counter it' is to invest into obs or a bunch of cannons early but then Toss probably won't have enough units..
I think whether they continue with LurkerLing or mass Hydra is more to do with personal preference rather than a strategical decision, but I'm not really sure
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Lurker in initial game is quite confusing for the protoss. He have to develop all ob tech and he takes time. Not that good if he start with fe(as all p nowadays)
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The problem with lurkerling + muta is that it's very gas intensive. It was used ages ago by Savior when he was dominating and the weakness to this as Bisu proved was corsairs. Consequently this type of build was tossed aside and ZvP involved more hydras. But now that corsair heavy builds are less frequently used, it's now becoming a nice alternative.
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from my perspective, there are fundamental differences between lurk ling and hydra muta
lurk ling is not very gas intensive in terms of units and is used as a transition period between early and late game. This build needs less gas (less upgrades and no mutas than hydras) so it can focus a lot more on expoing as it doesn't have to mine 3 gas. so if u want to contain/delay ur opp until hive tech is up, use this method
hydra/muta is more used for map control. this build allows the z to have a much more mobile army and can take the protoss army head on and still win. the downside is that hydras are not that strong for its cost and transition into late game is slightly more challenging. BUT hydra/muta is a counter to basically everything, say sair/dt, sair/reav, or just reaver in army, where as lurk/ling dies to any of the above.
soo basically lurk/ling is better if ur opp doesn't focus on air control and is going heavy storm/heavy ground. But for a better chance to win at mid-game and to be able to counter anything the protoss does, use hydra/muta
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Lurkerling works better than hydras when there are few units and the toss is trying to place cannons at his 3rd with basically the first archon or pair of templars he has.
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think of it more like..
saviors era, z v p consisted more of lurker ling and sniping obs
then bisu came along
the zergs adapted
and goes hydras instead to counter sairs
i just see it as different styles of play but as a protoss player, i prefer fighting lurker ling.
i freaking hate 5 hatch hydra initial attack cuz if u dont have enough mana on your templars... gg!
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On July 22 2009 22:39 piratebay wrote:
think of it more like..
saviors era, z v p consisted more of lurker ling and sniping obs
then bisu came along
the zergs adapted
and goes hydras instead to counter sairs
i just see it as different styles of play but as a protoss player, i prefer fighting lurker ling.
i freaking hate 5 hatch hydra initial attack cuz if u dont have enough mana on your templars... gg!
lolno, savior did 5hatch hydra builds zvp
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lurker ling is used as an opening for a transition into 4 base turtle play. Much better used on maps that are 3 player/4 player where you can simply take a nat/main and then when the protoss breaks out you retreat to a sunk/spore/lurker combo at both bases until you get ultra/ling.
its quite annoying that this build is popular again as I liked the predictability of all zergs opening muta or hydra. free wins with mass goon build lol
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Especially on Heartbreak Ridge it is hard to defend a 4 gas. Also since it is so thight it is easy to storm the hydras if they come to defend the 4 gas. It is also easy to defend when u go lurkers since it is not much roome to move around on. So therefor a 3 gas / camping for hive build works better. Thats what I think is the reason u dont see much 5 hatch hydra on especially Heartbreak Ridge.
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On July 22 2009 23:31 Mobius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2009 22:39 piratebay wrote:
think of it more like..
saviors era, z v p consisted more of lurker ling and sniping obs
then bisu came along
the zergs adapted
and goes hydras instead to counter sairs
i just see it as different styles of play but as a protoss player, i prefer fighting lurker ling.
i freaking hate 5 hatch hydra initial attack cuz if u dont have enough mana on your templars... gg! lolno, savior did 5hatch hydra builds zvp
The current 5 hatch hydra wasn't invented until after Bisu dethroned Savior. Piratebay was right on the history.
However, scourge are used to counter corsairs, not hydras. Hydras are used to defend vs ground units and defend vs drops. Hydra/scourge together defends corsairs/shuttle play.
To op. Notice that all the games you referenced are new games, and there are very few examples out there. The resurgence of lurker/ling is a recent phenomenon, an emerging trend. It is too early to say whether this will develop into a new style of zvp or simply a flash that goes away.
Remember during Savior's first come back run he won some beautiful games with 5 hatch (5 expos) mass mutas? That was rumored to be a new build as well, but no one followed and the build died. Only time can tell.
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10387 Posts
Certain strategies become more viable when maps allow them to be. I think this is the case of Heartbreak Ridge. Remember the Bisu/Jaedong game (where Jaedong gets massively delayed, but still goes for the standard 5 hatch hydra), where it was commented that it was difficult for Jaedong to secure his fourth, and then proceeded to bitch about map imba.
Now, the maps stats are in favor for zerg. Zero has been owning it up against everyone on this map, using the Lurkerling strategy to secure his fourth and wage an allout macro war. Day9 said that 5 Hatch Hydra was a great build to control the center. Thats why 5 hatch sucks in Longinus, because you can't really control the center with that build. Same goes for HB, it is not as important to control the center, but rather your side of the map. Lurkerling acheives this quite well, allowing for the Zerg to abuse the cliffs and claim the fourth easier.
In response to this, Protoss have recently been playing a DT first strategy, delaying the 2 archon timing, and also have been getting like 6 sairs in addition to their main army. Isn't too effective from what I have seen, since Zergs are nowadays very careful in Overlord/simcity placement, which effectively deflects the DT and they have been effectively dealing wih the sair fleet by making a lot of Scourge at once, which in the past they wouldn't because they were so damn stingy about their gas
I'm not a gosu though, so I could be wrong on a lot of things. Feel free to point out any mistakes on my part
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If you go lurker ling with 2 bases you might have to go for a low eco build. Im not sure on this since i dont play Z but ti seems that the hydra, tech, and morphing lurks would take a lot of gas and im not sure 2 gas can handle that. As for the muta, that is dependent on the protoss getting more than 2 corsairs. If he decides to go for a sair dt or sair shuttle build i would not suggest going muta.
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If you do this build how early should your 2nd or 3rd gas be? 5 hatch hydra normaly gets it fairly late, but lurkers and mutas are ofc very gas heavy.
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EPT
