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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
Some days ago, I watched a TvZ replay on Destination where T walls inn, places a proxy Factory, harasses with about 2 Vultures while going 2 Port Wraith, all off of 1 base. He then proceeds to build up a MMF force and tries to finish the Zerg off. I've been trying to copy this strategy, but so far I lost all of my games. Especially two Hatch builds in general seem to counter it perfectly. What do you think, is this strategy viable at all? EDIT: Found the replay | ||
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JinSin
United States83 Posts
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aokces
United States309 Posts
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
But a build order like this has to be pretty strict, all the way to your acad timing. Using a dropship with vultures is possible when, and only when the zerg is going 3 hatch muta Oh and you cant possibly lose with this vs a lurker opening heh, i suggest you work on a better build order. | ||
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
On February 28 2009 01:53 Cloud wrote: Yes, it is viable, and yes, 2 hatch builds are dangerous because its relatively safe to wait for mutas, but that doesnt mean youre gonna automatically lose. But a build order like this has to be pretty strict, all the way to your acad timing. Using a dropship with vultures is possible when, and only when the zerg is going 3 hatch muta Oh and you cant possibly lose with this vs a lurker opening heh, i suggest you work on a better build order. What would you do, if a Zerg goes for 2 Hatch Lurker and goes on an all-out attack on your wall? | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
I put my fact and starports in a location where a lord won't be able to see them even if he suicides. I basically wall and gas like a normal tvp start on destination, but make 1 marine and no add-on to factory. 2 ports and your 1st vulture as soon as factory finishes, and a 2nd marine if he has more than 6 lings or looks to be trying to get a lord in. I send 2 vults out when they're done, and harass directly if he has no sunkens, run by if he has a sunken but I think I can get through, or go around to the opening behind his natural if I don't think I can get in (wraiths will give you vision of about 3 patches that the vults can hit once they make it there). After 4 wraiths I add control tower to one starport, 5th wraith in the other, and begin harass while starting to pump marines. If they went muta/scourge, cloak is very important, so keep them alive till it's done while hunting lords, and keep pumping, but you'll need an ebay and turrets because your marine count will be low. If they went hydras, I go for an add-on to my factory to make tanks (this is why I don't proxy it), and I usually bunker expand. I can't help much beyond that because I only encountered 2 hatch muta one time, and I won pretty much every other game. I'm not sure at what point you're losing without a couple replays, but maybe you're letting them on to what you're doing too clearly if they're always countering with 2 hatch. I sometimes make 2 marines early and even a third to confuse them into thinking I'm wall-in expanding, but it can force you to cut scvs to keep even with supply without delaying your first four wraiths. Post some replays. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On February 28 2009 01:56 d1v wrote: What would you do, if a Zerg goes for 2 Hatch Lurker and goes on an all-out attack on your wall? Rape his overlords with wraiths, build a bunker above your ramp and either get a fast acad or get mines and keep making vults followed by speed. | ||
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LonelyMargarita
1845 Posts
On February 28 2009 01:58 Cloud wrote: Rape his overlords with wraiths, build a bunker above your ramp and either get a fast acad or get mines and keep making vults followed by speed. I find the bunker with tank and fast science vessel also works, since you already have a port with control tower. Forgo a wraith to start the sci fac as soon as you see lair/den with no spire. The wall then bunker will hold them off until the vessel gets out, and the tank+wraiths you have left kill the lurkers instantly. This is why the vulture harass was important. Either you get a few drones and set him notably back, or you save your vultures to kill any lings he tries to come out with. If he doesn't have a lot of lings with the first couple lurks, he really can't break the wall. And if you still have your vultures he has to keep his hydras unmorphed til he kills them or he'll lose all his lings. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7884 Posts
This build is very hard to execute, cuz you have to make a lot of damage with your wraith, and therefore you need an excellent multitasking, and a good wraith control. Oh, and I have a nice tip: What I usually do while using wraith is to lock an scv between my depots and the mineral line, and then I use it in a control group to stack my wraith like mutas. Then I use two hotkeys for my wraith group: one for the stacking/attacking/moving which include the scv, and one for cloack, which doesn't. | ||
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UbRi
Italy603 Posts
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
On February 28 2009 01:58 Cloud wrote: Rape his overlords with wraiths, build a bunker above your ramp and either get a fast acad or get mines and keep making vults followed by speed. I guess getting Mines is the best idea in this case. It's a logical follow up and doesn't require much micro. Thanks for the idea! Watch Leta vs Luxury at Destination during Winner League.. You can find the vod on jon747 youtube account of today. This build is very hard to execute, cuz you have to make a lot of damage with your wraith, and therefore you need an excellent multitasking, and a good wraith control. Oh, and I have a nice tip: What I usually do while using wraith is to lock an scv between my depots and the mineral line, and then I use it in a control group to stack my wraith like mutas. Then I use two hotkeys for my wraith group: one for the stacking/attacking/moving which include the scv, and one for cloack, which doesn't. Thanks for pointing that game out, will watch it ASAP. | ||
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merach
United States182 Posts
http://www.leechvideo.com/video/view693182.html | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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KingofHearts
Japan562 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On February 28 2009 06:07 cgrinker wrote: 2 Port Wraith? DOUBLE LAWLZ I think that's in the PvT guide, but it still applies here. xD | ||
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oogabooga
United States11 Posts
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oogabooga
United States11 Posts
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merach
United States182 Posts
On February 28 2009 12:37 oogabooga wrote: P.S. Can anybody suggest a hydra build order? I have no idea how to do it correctly. Not sure how BO's work in vanilla, but i'm pretty sure 3 hatch muta still works, so if you're doing 3 hatch muta and you see a vult, drop a den as fast as possible, and just micro as hard as you can to minimize damage. If you can, drop a sunken, that will stop vultures hella quick. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
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d1v
Sweden868 Posts
On February 28 2009 13:36 AzureEye wrote: How about you stop playing so cheesy-gay? Just play standard Who are you refering to? Ignorant post anyways, how about YOU stay away from such threads? | ||
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omninmo
2349 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7884 Posts
On February 28 2009 13:36 AzureEye wrote: How about you stop playing so cheesy-gay? Just play standard What is gay and boring is to play all the time the same crap FE against the same crap 3 hatch muta, and never think that Starcraft could be more interesting with a bit of imagination. And player who always play standard suck, as you could have noticed if you watched Idra vs F91. Idra said that in his game on Raid Assault, he lost because F91 did "something dumb", which was not playing the most efficient build for this particular map... Result is that Idra got completely raped, and still think that he lost because his opponent was bad. Your answer is everything I don't like in Starcraft. | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On February 28 2009 18:30 Biff The Understudy wrote: What is gay and boring is to play all the time the same crap FE against the same crap 3 hatch muta, and never think that Starcraft could be more interesting with a bit of imagination. And player who always play standard suck, as you could have noticed if you watched Idra vs F91. Idra said that in his game on Raid Assault, he lost because F91 did "something dumb", which was not playing the most efficient build for this particular map... Result is that Idra got completely raped, and still think that he lost because his opponent was bad. Your answer is everything I don't like in Starcraft. Ok I agree playing differently is unique and entertaining and can be effective but Terran already has so much opening options plus advantages against Zerg in TvZ matchup that it annoys me when Ts always try to pull cheese after cheese. Who ever said the matchup was fair when T>Z in the history of progaming (except brief period of Savior's time) and T can go proxy shit, if he fails, he's not punished as much as Z going failed 4 pool. Sorry to vent, just annoys me when T goes mech and wraith or other options and Z always have to adjust & be the one surprised & defend. | ||
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epicdoom
United States489 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7884 Posts
On March 01 2009 03:07 AzureEye wrote: Ok I agree playing differently is unique and entertaining and can be effective but Terran already has so much opening options plus advantages against Zerg in TvZ matchup that it annoys me when Ts always try to pull cheese after cheese. Who ever said the matchup was fair when T>Z in the history of progaming (except brief period of Savior's time) and T can go proxy shit, if he fails, he's not punished as much as Z going failed 4 pool. Sorry to vent, just annoys me when T goes mech and wraith or other options and Z always have to adjust & be the one surprised & defend. 2 ports opening is everything but a cheese. It's just an original opening. You get pissed off because the terran do something unusual. I call you a boring player. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
If you told your opponent beforehand that you were going 2port wraith, I think it'd be very unlikely that you could win this, unless you were just plain better. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On March 01 2009 05:13 SteveNick wrote: Isn't cheese usually defined as using a tactic that would result in a guaranteed loss if your opponent knew what you were doing? If you told your opponent beforehand that you were going 2port wraith, I think it'd be very unlikely that you could win this, unless you were just plain better. Cheese is a tactic based heavily on luck, as opposed to raw skill, such as 4 pool, BBS, cannon rush, etc. On topic: In general, I've found dropship is great against 3 hat muta, but a bit too slow vs lurker play. Also another trick I've used to throw them off is drop down the bunker in front of my nat, but not expand behind it. Depending on the map and the opposing player, you may fool them into thinking you fe'd, which is basically a gg if you 2 port wraithed. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On March 01 2009 03:07 AzureEye wrote: Ok I agree playing differently is unique and entertaining and can be effective but Terran already has so much opening options plus advantages against Zerg in TvZ matchup that it annoys me when Ts always try to pull cheese after cheese. Who ever said the matchup was fair when T>Z in the history of progaming (except brief period of Savior's time) and T can go proxy shit, if he fails, he's not punished as much as Z going failed 4 pool. Sorry to vent, just annoys me when T goes mech and wraith or other options and Z always have to adjust & be the one surprised & defend. For fuck's sake, stop posting. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On March 01 2009 05:13 SteveNick wrote: Isn't cheese usually defined as using a tactic that would result in a guaranteed loss if your opponent knew what you were doing? If you told your opponent beforehand that you were going 2port wraith, I think it'd be very unlikely that you could win this, unless you were just plain better. Technically everything can be countered perfectly if you knew what your opponent is doing 100% That a build is more aggressive than another doesnt mean its cheese. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On March 01 2009 03:07 AzureEye wrote: but Terran already has so much opening options plus advantages against Zerg in TvZ matchup that it annoys me when Ts always try to pull cheese after cheese. Who ever said the matchup was fair when T>Z in the history of progaming Good fucking damn, stop posting. This showcases your ignorance in such a classic way. Are you a progamer? I'm damn sure you aren't so don't go around talking about the imbalances you perceive in the proscene. It doesn't even matter at the level you are at. | ||
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Mannequin
Canada131 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
edit: done | ||
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yann
119 Posts
Leta basically blocked his ramp in the aforementioned VOD and Luxury was about to go standard 3 hatch muta... well, it seemed so. Is there anybody who could analyze this? What should have Luxury done better? Having seen the scourge to be just a "waste of money" against this number of wraiths I guess the proper (and the ONLY????) counter is to go for hydras + range + speed ASAP ... But I am a just a newbie who has just happened to lose to this build in ZvT... | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
Scourges at least scare low numbers of wraiths away and buy time. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
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