On January 31 2009 03:28 DukE wrote:
I'm sorry but i need to say this. "speacial", exactly how you spelled it in the OP, is how i lost in my 2nd grade spelling bee.

it's a hard word to be sure

Ideas

United States8180 Posts

January 30 2009 18:51 GMT

#22

On January 31 2009 03:45 Zerg_Sasuke wrote:
will it work with mass hydra follow-up instead of lings/hive ?

That's pretty much standard 3 hatch spire into 5 hat hydra, but with muta harass while hydra upgrades are coming. You will go for a more mid-game push and not take a hive until you can secure a 4th gas (or at least I don't think so).

July did something just like that vs Bisu on chupung during the incruit OSL:

the goal with the muta harass in that sort of style is to really force the protoss to make as many sairs/archons as you can force him to make (also use as many storms as possible) to fight off your mutas so that your hydras are much more powerful.

Shado.

United States187 Posts

January 30 2009 21:35 GMT

#23

On January 30 2009 17:01 Rucky wrote:
I don't see how you can stop protoss from taking a third if you're turtling. Yes you can use mutaling, but protoss can easily protect his 3rd with zealarchon+corsair. Most P's don't even go for the intial push, if they see you turtle. They'll be happy to match 3 base with 3 base and then run you over.

You use Muta/ling and rely on your mobility to stop his 3rd. Ideally you need cannons + sairs + an archon just to protect one expo. You figure, you need an archon in the main, and archon in the nat and another archon to go expo, plus cannons at main and nat and sairs, which you hope won't get scourged. The hope is, you can pick off cannons, keep harassing and delay his 3rd, which is inevitable.

Meanwhile, you can take your 4th really easily (python) because if you expo to your natural, you can sunk it up and take the main easily. So for a short amount of time, you'll have 4 bases vs 2 bases. Toss may still have a slight economic advantage, but you'll be far from getting run over.

d_so

Korea (South)3262 Posts

January 30 2009 21:54 GMT

#24

it's interesting to watch how zvp has evolved at destination. i think of this build as an intermediary step to the current zvp domination on that map. as such, there are strengths and weaknesses of this build, and we can see the adaptation of these strengths as well as the avoidance of its weaknesses in current zvp destination games.

first, if we notice current zvp destination games, there is a strong reliance on hydras in contrast to this build. the reason for this, i think, has to do with a weakness in the "calm" build; too much passive play for the zerg until hive tech. so yes, this build blocks the protoss 4 gate speedlot archon rush with an impenetrable defense of sunkens/simicity and diversionary attacks with mutas. but instead of sitting passively, the current five hatch hydra strat incorporates a similar amount of resource investment but into hydras instead of sunkens. this allows zerg to attack as well as defend as necessary.

another weakness of the "calm" build is its reliance on early mutas. protoss simply has to add some sairs to beat this build. so these days, we see more early scourge and mass hydras, with mutas coming after the sair threat has been destroyed.

i think one strength of this "calm" build is the manner in which destination's bridges/cliffs are used for mutas to sniper archons/high templars. we see this incorporated most clearly in games like luxury vs jangbi in winners league and zero vs bisu on msl.

and of course, the back and forth attacking style of gaurdians in the rear and cracklings in the front is really cool as well. I just think that, in contrast to recent games where zerg wins at lair tech, the extended timing period of passive defense in the "calm" build makes it too vulnerable to changes in Protoss's strategy, namely sair/shuttle.

overall, i think this build needs to be viewed as a desperation move by zergs to use a strategy that the commentators said is over 7 years old and was used on lost temple. i'm not saying it's a bad strategy, i'm just saying that it's not being used currently on destination for a reason: it helped zergs to start winning against protoss on this map, forcing the protoss to change from their speedlot/archon rush strat, but is no longer being used against protoss's sair/reaver.

thx for posting this OP and games; i had missed them and was always wondering what had caused P to divert from the speedlot/archon rush that Horang2 pulled on GGplay

lIlIlIlIlIlI

Korea (South)3851 Posts

January 30 2009 22:19 GMT

#25

--- Nuked ---

arb

Noobville17922 Posts

January 30 2009 22:38 GMT

#26

Turtle zerg is nothing new AFAIK Dimaga does it all the time

Tester gets no obs nor reavers. Is he just expecting that no lurkers or anything are coming are what.

build might work when it isnt scouted but otherwise yeah i doubt it

koreasilver

9109 Posts

January 30 2009 22:44 GMT

#27

I just tried this build out.

I won't be using it again.

Trozz

Canada3456 Posts

January 30 2009 23:53 GMT

#28

This build looks like fun.
I usually go fast Lurk,
To kill the nat Probes.

I'll try out this build.
I'm confident with mutas.
(I'm a fan of Calm.)

nttea

Sweden4353 Posts

January 31 2009 00:30 GMT

#29

i hoped this was some way i could play starcraft without getting my skin shred off from my fingers due to the constant keyspamming.

Kong John

Denmark1020 Posts

January 31 2009 11:03 GMT

#30

Look at the youtube VODs the OP posted. The mutas hardly did any eco damage and still it worked.
What you need to do is delay his third by sniping his probe or something, by doing this you can expand more safely, and if he pushes out youve got too many sunks for him to deal with.
These vidoes show the build on destenation where you ca get a easy fourth expansion if you have secured the 3rd. Which you ofc have since youve double expanded. If you get these four expos up then that all you need for mass crackling and defiler, once youve gained map control you can easily take a 5th expo if nessesary.

The hard part of this build is muta micro, it doesent need to be that great but you have to make him know that youve got alot of mutas attacking him, if he makes alot of cannons its gonna be easier for you to kill him when the cracklings arrive.

Also if a Toss goes sair reaver then you defenatly shouldnt do this build which is fine since youll discover what build he is doing before the build really deviates.

Metaspace

Austria670 Posts

February 03 2009 12:18 GMT

#31

Haha I'd like to have seen Backho's face when he nearly cracked Heros nat, looking so strong and then suddenly be drowned with unending streams of cracklings!

Cracklings rule!!