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Note: I did not put in the 'proper' bracket thing simply because im not sure what this would be defined as. Perhaps theory crafting? I don't know.
Anyways. Starcraft is a constantly changing game. A few years ago, 3 hatch lurker was the strategy. Now its muta. It seems- to me at least- to be the optimum standard opener against Terran possible. I really don't see what build could possibly be more efficient unless the maps drastically changed. However, if mech builds become more popular [ala fantasy] or 3 hatch muta simply becomes less effective [which is generally true, it is less effective compared to a year or more ago] its possible we could see its extinction as a standard opener.
So:
1) Has anyone thought of any build orders that, in theory, could become a standard opener in zvt?
2) Do you honestly think 3 hatch muta will die and be replaced, or that we have reached the end of starcraft evolution in this particular facet of the game?
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Its pretty simple:
Even IF it is the best openeing in ZvT. It will often be better to choose another opening, if the terrans are just used to coping with the muta build and thus wont expect any other builds.
And maybe new terran builds will change things again and so on..
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There's been a lot of 2 hatch variations coming back in recent progames/replays. 2 hatch muta/2 hatch lurker being the most common (thezerg did it early in OSL i think? on byzantium). So it's already changing and it has been for at least the past season.
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Not only just 2 hatch Muta, a lot of progamers have been trying to go 2 hatch muta directly into Hive play, like Ultras or Defilers. I don't know why, they just chose not to take a third and go straight to Hive. But they've been able to hold Terran in their base with their muta harass so I guess it works out.
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Yeah, the game is gradually shifting away from 3 hatch muta because progamers are simply getting so good at defending it. ZvT in general has been a lot more hungry and aggressive recently because T mechanics are just getting far too good.
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If the current map idiom would change you might see a lot more viable things. But 9 mineral mains with safe uncliffable 7-9 mineral+gas nat means the game gets boiled down to "best standard" and builds that do well against the counter or equal to the standard.
Also the top level of starcraft players right now are everything but creative. Dont give a fuck if any1 blasts me for this but a lot of these kids only have a few years of experience playing cookie cutter styles on standard maps. Simply dont even understand some of the possibilites. Like all this fast wraith/mech shit lately. lol learn to go hydras with no lair kids.
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I 100% agree with venom on this one...all of these new young players who have been only playing for 2-3 years, are just like little drones, that do whatever there coach tells them to.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 19 2008 18:09 Salorian wrote:
I 100% agree with venom on this one...all of these new young players who have been only playing for 2-3 years, are just like little drones, that do whatever there coach tells them to. Thats the thing though, these players have been playing for at least 6-7 years with about 4-3 years progaming experience
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3 hat mutas is dying off. I'm not sure about any NEW shit coming out of ZvT/TvZ, but the game will continue to change...as one strat becomes dominant and popular, the other race will find a way to defend it and change/adapt...as a result, the other one will have to adapt to that.
It's clearly evident in top level zergs going back to 2 hat BOs and even skipping mutas in their openings and going straight to lurker.
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I use lurker as my standard opening. Terrans are very good against mutalisk these days so toI go for fast 3 gas lurker and use it kinda like you would mutalisk to slow down their push and try and get a good attack when they are unseiged, then tech to defiler and attack with defiler lurker. Rather than going lurker and doing it as an all in push. It is possible I think we could see a new standard for ZvT imo.
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Calgary26004 Posts
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
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I like 2 hatch muta a lot, if you have a really really good multitask and harass, you can contain terran pretty good and fast tech or try to slowly catch up eco while teching.. I love that one yarnc build I think is like 11 or 12 pool into two hatch muta with early lings to put pressure in the terran fe'ing and also deny scouting
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On October 19 2008 17:59 red.venom wrote:
If the current map idiom would change you might see a lot more viable things. But 9 mineral mains with safe uncliffable 7-9 mineral+gas nat means the game gets boiled down to "best standard" and builds that do well against the counter or equal to the standard.
Also the top level of starcraft players right now are everything but creative. Dont give a fuck if any1 blasts me for this but a lot of these kids only have a few years of experience playing cookie cutter styles on standard maps. Simply dont even understand some of the possibilites. Like all this fast wraith/mech shit lately. lol learn to go hydras with no lair kids.
Cliffable nats generally imbalance the game.
And your example of why you are oh sooo smart and the progamers so stupid is just lol
+ Show Spoiler +GGplay lost that game _because_ he went hydras before lair. And if your are talking about various plasma games that's just.... good luck playing mass tier 1 ground vs wraith into expand + mass tanks on plasma rofl.
As for the OP 3 hat muta has been standard sine when; 2004-5? I don't remember. If you made this thread in 2006 I would have given you a point since savior when dominating NEVER did anything but 3 hat muta. But now when the leading zvt players (jaedong, lux, GGplay?) constantly switch things up I don't really understand. I mean the last year we have seen soo many 2 hat muta games that it's hard to count. Not just one single variation either, but both drone heavy, ling heavy, fast 3 hat at other main and allins have been used.
Not only that but the last months we have seen both 3 hat lurks and 2 hat lurks as well.
So in essence, no.
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it seems like terran players are dominating, i remember when terran was considered the weakest race of the 3 until boxer made his innovative plays. damn i wish i could go back in time and pwn all the progamers
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On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer.
na, only if u have progamer muta micro
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agree if you got really good muta micro you can really push a advantage out of 2 hatch muta. If your muta micro is like any of the top foreingers or worse I think 3 hatch play is better =/.
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On October 19 2008 20:37 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer. na, only if u have progamer muta micro
every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro'
its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it.
2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
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On October 19 2008 22:38 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2008 20:37 damenmofa wrote:On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer. na, only if u have progamer muta micro every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it. 2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular.
wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
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On October 19 2008 23:13 damenmofa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2008 22:38 IdrA wrote:On October 19 2008 20:37 damenmofa wrote:On October 19 2008 18:43 Chill wrote:
I think 2 Hatch Muta is a fundamentally better build, but 3 Hatch is safer. na, only if u have progamer muta micro every serious korean zerg(and most t's and p's cuz its fun to mess around with), amateur and pro alike has 'progamer muta micro' its not that hard. foreigners just refuse to sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it. 2 hat muta gets almost equal play with 3 hat given some of the new maps are really hard for standard zvt play. chupung and destination in particular. wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days..
No apm discussion please, and what idra says is 100% true,ive seen D- Koreans with muta micro that made me think they were a hell of a lot better until i checked the stats
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You misunderstood what Idra was saying, chill. First, you don't need 300 APM to have terrific muta micro (look at savior). Sitting on a micro map for more than two days will not do anything; compared to Korean muta micro, foreigner micro is garbage. Idra never said either of those things though, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the context of Idra being ignorant. =O
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EPT
