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On July 26 2008 03:56 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2008 03:27 Kwark wrote:On July 25 2008 23:24 Chill wrote:On July 24 2008 18:09 Kwark wrote:
Swarmlurker is almost unkillable for the standard blob. We're talking goons, chons and zees which can take on anything the Z has in open terrain. But swarmlurk can deal with all of that defensively and by playing defensively with emphasis on dominating the resource centres you can win. So if they go goon heavy you want to counter with this. In theory they'll respond by moving into either a darksair mix or more storm heavy and then you counter that and then they counter you and so forth. But against the standard death blob you want swarmlurks defensively. If you have the eco for it then swarmultracrackslurk is great offensively too simply because the goons are the main damage dealers for his army and the zees are the only swarm damage dealers. Ultraswarm nullifies both. Who would ever respond to Lurkers with DTs? That just doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure the standard response to Swarm, especially with Lurkers, is Reavers. You've not seen a darksair switch late game PvZ when the opponent is going ultralingswarmlurk? I sure haven't. Players typically open sair and switch to ground, not the other way around. I can't think of a single solitary instance in a pro match where a toss opened ground and switched to sair, lategame they either stay on the ground or do carriers instead. It doesn't make any sense at all to go sair lategame, especially if they have a billion lurkers on the ground, you need the supply to deal with zerg's ground forces. Once you're in the 200 supply range you can afford to lose overlords, they only cost minerals. It hurts the zerg a hell of a lot less than T losing a vessel or P losing an obs. Furthermore if they're pumping lurkers then they probably have a few hydras lying around waiting to morph and if they scout a substantial number of sairs then they just won't morph the next wave of hydras, then what do you do? Sairs work because midgame the Z has a hard time pacing their hydra production against it.
You would be amazed at how effective a sudden switch to sair dt is when the zerg is 200/200 and no hydralisks.
Well not exactly sudden but without the zergs knowledge preferably (specially vs those newbies who love their sunken spores)
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United States43350 Posts
On July 26 2008 03:56 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2008 03:27 Kwark wrote:On July 25 2008 23:24 Chill wrote:On July 24 2008 18:09 Kwark wrote:
Swarmlurker is almost unkillable for the standard blob. We're talking goons, chons and zees which can take on anything the Z has in open terrain. But swarmlurk can deal with all of that defensively and by playing defensively with emphasis on dominating the resource centres you can win. So if they go goon heavy you want to counter with this. In theory they'll respond by moving into either a darksair mix or more storm heavy and then you counter that and then they counter you and so forth. But against the standard death blob you want swarmlurks defensively. If you have the eco for it then swarmultracrackslurk is great offensively too simply because the goons are the main damage dealers for his army and the zees are the only swarm damage dealers. Ultraswarm nullifies both. Who would ever respond to Lurkers with DTs? That just doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure the standard response to Swarm, especially with Lurkers, is Reavers. You've not seen a darksair switch late game PvZ when the opponent is going ultralingswarmlurk? I sure haven't. Players typically open sair and switch to ground, not the other way around. I can't think of a single solitary instance in a pro match where a toss opened ground and switched to sair, lategame they either stay on the ground or do carriers instead. It doesn't make any sense at all to go sair lategame, especially if they have a billion lurkers on the ground, you need the supply to deal with zerg's ground forces. Once you're in the 200 supply range you can afford to lose overlords, they only cost minerals. It hurts the zerg a hell of a lot less than T losing a vessel or P losing an obs. Furthermore if they're pumping lurkers then they probably have a few hydras lying around waiting to morph and if they scout a substantial number of sairs then they just won't morph the next wave of hydras, then what do you do? Sairs work because midgame the Z has a hard time pacing their hydra production against it.
I'm obviously not advocating going darksair whatever the z does. There's no strategy that is always good. I'm saying when you've opened darksair, switched to ground, reached the late game and they're mass ground with no hydra mixing some darksair into your army is very effective. Firstly it means he loses at least one battle because he'll engage, go "omg darksair, shit, need hydra" and have a painful retreat. At this point you can start making his life hell with sairs because those sairs just don't die. You can keep killing ovis all game as long as you avoid the hydra clumps. You can make a darchon or two with a few spare darks for mael and feedback and maybe do a dark drop on his main with sair support to try and kill some tech. It's very viable as a sudden switch and the momentum it gives you can change the balance of a game completely. When you break out the darksair you gain map control until he gets a decent number of hydra up and by that point you've stopped making darks (you only make 8 or so).
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There are so many things wrong with this post I don't know where to begin. I rarely feel the need to criticize someone for giving bad strategy advice but you're way off in the deep end of theorycraft here.
First off zerg can cough and produce a new 200/200 army, catching a Z's pants down with an air switch is nowhere near as effective as catching a T with a carrier switch at all. You're still missing the point that killing ovies lategame does NOT hurt the zerg, merely annoys them. zerg is limited by gas, they literally can't spend their minerals fast enough endgame because of the supply cap. any resources you dump into killing ovies lategame would be better spent killing an expo, or perhaps their hatcheries. In order to hurt a lategame zerg you must damage their gas income, in case you haven't been watching pro games for the past million billion years, how many geysers a zerg can get ahold typically makes or break the game for them.
second off why are you killing their tech, drones are always a more viable target. i'm not the best player, i'm not even a great player, but i have enough common sense to realize it's never a good idea to try and zerg/protoss tech buildings lategame, it's annoying but it's an absolutely negligble setback compared to levelling their economy. i guess if you manage to take their hive itself down it's a good idea to knock off all the tech buildings but otherwise it's a completely minor inconvenience, and if a good player notices they're going to lose a tech building they'll typically start rebuilding it somewhere else before it's even dead. again you're making the same mistake you made in the first point and i'm utterly baffled by this.
so basically, in both instances, you'd rather accomplish delaying a few high tech units for a handful of SECONDS than permanently damage their eco. that makes sense. Then you suggest that DAs actually have practical uses and I totally stopped paying attention. Here's the thing about DAs: they are powerful yes, but they're so powerful that their mere existence in the tech tree prevents any sane opponent from attempting to use any strategy that they are designed to counter.
i'm by no means saying that dt/sair is useless in general but i'm saying that there are way better ways to inflict damage vs a 200/200 zerg. you may be able to stall for time but you won't tip the game in your favor doing this, and as a counter to swarm+lurker it makes as much sense as yamato.
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Sair/dt is quite viable late game if you have the money for it, and please don't try to compare progaming to people asking strategic advice on teamliquid, the two are distinctly different.
Also dropping 2-4 dt's and killing all tech / evo chambers midgame is probably the most underrated strategy in the world. Also seems hypocritical that you'd assume zerg has endless minerals but find it important to still hurt his eco? If the zerg has endless minerals it takes him about ~3 seconds to build 14 drones again, whereas losing tech/evo chambers takes awhile to replace and can set them back massively (evo chambers are massive in early'ish/midgame).
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United States43350 Posts
On July 26 2008 05:18 Zanno wrote:
There are so many things wrong with this post I don't know where to begin. I rarely feel the need to criticize someone for giving bad strategy advice but you're way off in the deep end of theorycraft here.
First off zerg can cough and produce a new 200/200 army, catching a Z's pants down with an air switch is nowhere near as effective as catching a T with a carrier switch at all. You're still missing the point that killing ovies lategame does NOT hurt the zerg, merely annoys them. zerg is limited by gas, they literally can't spend their minerals fast enough endgame because of the supply cap. any resources you dump into killing ovies lategame would be better spent killing an expo, or perhaps their hatcheries. In order to hurt a lategame zerg you must damage their gas income, in case you haven't been watching pro games for the past million billion years, how many geysers a zerg can get ahold typically makes or break the game for them.
second off why are you killing their tech, drones are always a more viable target. i'm not the best player, i'm not even a great player, but i have enough common sense to realize it's never a good idea to try and zerg/protoss tech buildings lategame, it's annoying but it's an absolutely negligble setback compared to levelling their economy. i guess if you manage to take their hive itself down it's a good idea to knock off all the tech buildings but otherwise it's a completely minor inconvenience, and if a good player notices they're going to lose a tech building they'll typically start rebuilding it somewhere else before it's even dead. again you're making the same mistake you made in the first point and i'm utterly baffled by this.
so basically, in both instances, you'd rather accomplish delaying a few high tech units for a handful of SECONDS than permanently damage their eco. that makes sense. Then you suggest that DAs actually have practical uses and I totally stopped paying attention. Here's the thing about DAs: they are powerful yes, but they're so powerful that their mere existence in the tech tree prevents any sane opponent from attempting to use any strategy that they are designed to counter.
i'm by no means saying that dt/sair is useless in general but i'm saying that there are way better ways to inflict damage vs a 200/200 zerg. you may be able to stall for time but you won't tip the game in your favor doing this, and as a counter to swarm+lurker it makes as much sense as yamato.
Sigh. What's your icc rank?
Have you ever actually played late game PvZ against a defiler user?
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EPT
