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[Q] 1st supply placement
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
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XuoriG
Canada165 Posts
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XCetron
5226 Posts
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
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ii.blitzkrieg
Canada1122 Posts
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On January 05 2008 06:35 zobz wrote: I don't see how it makes sense to say it's pointless to make your scv pop out "a few pixels" closer to the minerals but pointful to correct the mining route of one or two scvs by probably a fairly slight incriment. I think depending on which side of your cc the minerals are on the supply makes your scv pop out like in the middle of the cc rather than at the opposite side of the minerals, which is fairly significant when it effects every scv you make after 9. Alot of their scvs probably won't get sent to mine right away anyway but at their level i think alot of them are. Because mining is passive and continuous throughout the entire game, so it can add up to a difference. Getting your workers to the first mineral patch 3 pixels quicker when they are saturated anyways makes no difference. Do you see now? | ||
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chrusher97
Canada811 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On January 05 2008 08:12 skyglow1 wrote: I'm 90% sure it's so the scv can pop out closer to the minerals, which when coupled with manual control of your workers to the correct mineral patches, can speed up your build order by a few seconds (which can be critical). If it was about SCV popping, it would be a matrix left. | ||
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homeless_guy
United States321 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 05 2008 08:15 Chill wrote: If it was about SCV popping, it would be a matrix left. Hmm you sure it wouldn't pop up on the right side of the supply if you put it 1 matrix to the left? On January 05 2008 08:19 homeless_guy wrote: i have never quite understood how it corrects the mining path. can someone plz explain this to me? Sometimes the workers that are mining from the lower patches will not return their minerals to the closest point on the CC. Instead, they'll travel more to the right before returning their minerals, so the point at which they return their minerals is something like bottom center of the CC. If you put the supply there, the scvs are forced to return their minerals at the bottom left corner of the CC, which reduces the distance the scv travel when mining. | ||
LosingID8
CA10835 Posts
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On January 05 2008 08:27 skyglow1 wrote: Hmm you sure it wouldn't pop up on the right side of the supply if you put it 1 matrix to the left? My understanding is that StarCraft has a point it wants to create a unit (I think it's typically bottom left but I could be wrong) and if that's blocked it rotates around counter-clockwise until there's an opening and places the unit there. I don't think there's a "buffer zone" where it checks if there is an opening closer to the clockwise side than counter-clockwise. So I don't think it's possible to force units to be created farther left unless you block off everything else. This can be seen in UMS maps where Terran has no building time - the first SCV pops out bottom left, and then they continue around to the right. At no point does one suddenly come out at the left. Of course I could be wrong, I'm not at home to test this out. | ||
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Zherak
Norway256 Posts
With minerals on the right hand side of your CC, lining up the left edges of a building and the CC will make the SCV spawn closer to the minerals. The benefit is not quite as insignificant as it might seem, because workers path really weird. Acceleration seems a lot better, and it is a bit easier to time it so the worker reaches its patch just as it becomes available. With minerals on the left hand side, it is not really possible to make the SCVs spawn any closer without walling all the way around the CC. EDIT: It is possible to fix spawning with minerals over the CC, but difficult and hardly worth it. This can also be done with Protoss, most easily with the CCore. This doesn't make sense for Zerg, obviously. Somebody would have to run test games to measure the actual significance. NOTE: The SS in the OP: That supply depot will not affect SCV spawning. Actually, if an SCV is returning minerals just as a new SCV is spawning, it forces the new SCV to spawn on the right side of the CC, above the SD. If this SD was moved t the left, SCVs would always spawn on the right hand side of the CC. | ||
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Zherak
Norway256 Posts
On January 05 2008 07:09 Chill wrote: Because mining is passive and continuous throughout the entire game, so it can add up to a difference. Getting your workers to the first mineral patch 3 pixels quicker when they are saturated anyways makes no difference. Do you see now? If your mineral field is saturated, no amount of SD-correction will help your mining............... | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On January 05 2008 08:55 Zherak wrote: If your mineral field is saturated, no amount of SD-correction will help your mining............... But up until that point (3~ worker per patch), it makes a huge difference because it's passively speeding up your mineral collection. [edit] I hate it when I don't quote and it goes to the next page. [/edit] | ||
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jngngshk321
Korea (South)457 Posts
On January 05 2008 08:55 Zherak wrote: If your mineral field is saturated, no amount of SD-correction will help your mining...............  | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
Why? He was confused about something, and implied that he needed clarification. | ||
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xmShake
United States1100 Posts
If you put the supply depot one matrix to the left, the scv would spawn to the right of the supply depot, as units spawn at the most southeast spawn like chill said, but would not spawn to the left of the depot if moved one matrix to the left, since that space is being occupied by a depot. (The initial spawning point does not go beyond the buildings borders) | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
And i guess it makes a big difference cause i remember commentators mentioning that sometimes in mirror matchups you notice people with the same build order one having more scvs or a faster rax/fact. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On January 05 2008 07:09 Chill wrote: You're still saying 3 pixels which is a large exageration. Half a command centre's width is a little bit more than that, and as i said when it effects every scv after your 9th it's got to be fairly significant.Because mining is passive and continuous throughout the entire game, so it can add up to a difference. Getting your workers to the first mineral patch 3 pixels quicker when they are saturated anyways makes no difference. Do you see now? Every scv after your 9th implies that it is obviously well before saturation, and that though it requires manual attention in order to make any difference at all, i.e you have to tell the scv to mine while it's still moving off its rallypoint, this is not especially hard in the first 5 minutes of the game, and i'm sure progamers get the occassional one right throughout the game and somewhat consistantly well after the 5 minute mark. It also doesn't matter how small a difference it makes as long as it makes any difference at all unless you can think of a better place to put it. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On January 05 2008 15:57 zobz wrote: You're still saying 3 pixels which is a large exageration. Half a command centre's width is a little bit more than that, and as i said when it effects every scv after your 9th it's got to be fairly significant. Every scv after your 9th implies that it is obviously well before saturation, and that though it requires manual attention in order to make any difference at all, i.e you have to tell the scv to mine while it's still moving off its rallypoint, this is not especially hard in the first 5 minutes of the game, and i'm sure progamers get the occassional one right throughout the game and somewhat consistantly well after the 5 minute mark. It also doesn't matter how small a difference it makes as long as it makes any difference at all unless you can think of a better place to put it. You completely misunderstood his post. | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 05 2008 08:14 Hypnosis wrote: for that depot think of a barracks right below it, it would stop a zealot rush in its tracks because a marine can fit but a zealot cant. it also makes the scvs return faster to mine once done building the depot. it is a number of pro things, small as they are, that make these people better than YOU. This is the reason, at this location it isnt possible to make the depot spawn the scv closer to the mins so its definitely not that. | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
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Play
Australia608 Posts
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naventus
United States1339 Posts
I see a lot of T players not doing that anti zealot arrangement and just pulling SCVs instead to fight zeals. Why would you not do that arrangement in all cases (maybe they are just used to using SCVs?)? | ||
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kpcrew
Korea (South)1071 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
2. fix min route (very big one, esp on maps with fucked up pathing like luna and some versions of python) 3. Make scv pop closer to minerals (Ex: the minerals are to your right, and the scv naturally pops to the bottom left of the CC, so they place a depot to make it pop out on the bottom right. placing in the SS of OP does not affect scv pop.) | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=depotsslz2.jpg) | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 05 2008 18:35 naventus wrote: I hate to ask for this, but could someone post the picture of the barracks with supply at that configuration? I've seen the old building placement thread, but there's no picture for this supply position. I see a lot of T players not doing that anti zealot arrangement and just pulling SCVs instead to fight zeals. Why would you not do that arrangement in all cases (maybe they are just used to using SCVs?)? Probably cause they don't know about it, it's too troublesome in their mind, or their confident in their marine + scv micro. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
Well... his statement is actually true. "If your mineral field is saturated, no amount of SD-correction will help your mining......" But very rarely would you have that many scvs mining off of one base and if you do you're probably in a very bad position anyway. To be totally saturated you need about 3 scv per patch and that's a ton. | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
At the end of this post I'll post download links to some example images (right now I can't find a better image sharing system). The depot is built on the bottom left of the cc. This is not to correct mining routes neither does it have a noticeable impact on the income. Afaik the first player to introduce this was Hwasin. It is an improvement for his defense vs zealot rush. It is an alternate "wall-in". Let me explain. The depot is the first step, the reason he builds it there is that the barracks can be placed right next to it (bottom left, be careful to place it correctly because other positionings don't work afaik from my own testings), creating the effect of a wall-in. Why so complicated? Because if done correctly marines can walk through but zealots cannot. By doing so marines can dodge the 1st zealot easily. Of course as soon as the 2nd zealot arrives you've got to kill one of them if you haven't done it yet but some protoss players are still confused and won't be able to pressure real hard. The effect is big enough to legitimate the (hardly noticeable) inconveniences because it allows you to protect your factory (advise: build it close to the "wall-in") from early zealot-pressure until it finishes (normally before the 2nd zealot arrives). (hint: if the zealot attempts to attack the scv at the factory which it should, just send the scv back to mining as soon as the zealot comes close to it and replace it without losing a second. In that time the zealot may get damaged heavily and you can even stay relaxed). In addition you're able to save more marines with ease for the incoming zealots. Then how I would do it: factory done, hide your marines inside of your economy and outsmart the invaders with some scv's as soon as they enter your little death zone. Build a vulture at the same time, abuse the patrol-command and after smoke clears up you should have a tiny advantage, especially if p has 2 off-gates instead of just 1. Now I'll post the images. They show two different alternative wall-ins. Map is Python, the first wall-in is for 12 and 3, the second wall-in is for 6 and 9. First wall-in: Step 1: http://www.elnoy.org/elnoyhost/download.php?file=194alternate wall-in A-1.pcx Step 2: http://www.elnoy.org/elnoyhost/download.php?file=273alternate wall-in A-2.pcx Second wall-in: Step 1: http://www.elnoy.org/elnoyhost/download.php?file=964alternate wall-in B-1.pcx Step 2: http://www.elnoy.org/elnoyhost/download.php?file=29alternate wall-in B-2.pcx Good luck & have fun outplaying rushing noobs, I hope you enjoyed reading  | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On January 06 2008 07:45 Jonoman92 wrote: Well... his statement is actually true. "If your mineral field is saturated, no amount of SD-correction will help your mining......" But very rarely would you have that many scvs mining off of one base and if you do you're probably in a very bad position anyway. To be totally saturated you need about 3 scv per patch and that's a ton. Saturated is a rate of mineral harvesting, not a number of SCVs per patch. Correcting the path allows you to reach this state faster with less SCVs. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
On January 06 2008 06:45 skyglow1 wrote: Probably cause they don't know about it, it's too troublesome in their mind, or their confident in their marine + scv micro. True not alot of people know about it Only a few games i saw where pros do that one i remember is paranoid andriod wcg 2007 stork vs hwasin. Hwasin did it. | ||
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Tensai176
Canada2061 Posts
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
The order the scv is: 10@9@8@7 11@@@@@6 12@@@@@5 @1@2@3@4 By covering 2,3,4, if a scv is returning a cargo at 1, the scv would spawn at 5, and therefore much farther way from the minerals. if the minerals were at the right side and the supply depot blocked 1-3, you might argue it has a bit of an advantage. I dont think there is no particular reason. Maybe to position the barracks on the right side of the cc, adjacent to both cc and supply. marines can walk in between, but zealots cant. | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On January 07 2008 16:13 Leath wrote: certainly not to forward the scv, specially at this position. The order the scv is: 10@9@8@7 11@@@@@6 12@@@@@5 @1@2@3@4 By covering 2,3,4, if a scv is returning a cargo at 1, the scv would spawn at 5, and therefore much farther way from the minerals. if the minerals were at the right side and the supply depot blocked 1-3, you might argue it has a bit of an advantage. I dont think there is no particular reason. Maybe to position the barracks on the right side of the cc, adjacent to both cc and supply. marines can walk in between, but zealots cant. Wrong way around. A rax would need to be placed on the left side of the depot, not on the right [Edit]Woops it seems a CC placed in that position above the supply makes the rax-on-the-right setup actually work. Strange  [/Edit]. A rax + CC combo in that position would work, but this would not involve the supply, so the placement of the supply cannot be for the reason of creating the special gap.Not only that, the supply + CC gap does not allow a rine through. | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
You can still see the tiny advantage I've spoken about after the initial rush. My vulture control wasn't too strong (I lost 2 of them unneccessarily) but the advantage was still big enough to pressure him a bit. PS: It wasn't the most dangerous 2 gate rush. Keep in mind that you'd probably lose the game if the rush is even stronger and your vulture control looks like mine in that replay. Work on your vulture control as hard as you can, zealot rush can be a bitch. http://rapidshare.com/files/81908071/0366_ETBrooDT_undrelikP.rep.html Lets send them cheesers back to wherever they belong to! | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
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foeffa
Belgium2115 Posts
On January 06 2008 10:34 ForAdun wrote: wall in Tx, informative post. =) | ||
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
I'm guessing you misunderstood his post and thought that he was just saying to do a normal wall-in? Read again. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On January 05 2008 08:39 Chill wrote: My understanding is that StarCraft has a point it wants to create a unit (I think it's typically bottom left but I could be wrong) and if that's blocked it rotates around counter-clockwise until there's an opening and places the unit there. I don't think there's a "buffer zone" where it checks if there is an opening closer to the clockwise side than counter-clockwise. So I don't think it's possible to force units to be created farther left unless you block off everything else. This can be seen in UMS maps where Terran has no building time - the first SCV pops out bottom left, and then they continue around to the right. At no point does one suddenly come out at the left. Of course I could be wrong, I'm not at home to test this out. Actually It would just be a lot easier if the Rally point AI was fixed so that the unit pops out on the closest side to the rally. PS- I was trying to illustrate how this pylon placement on OG bloodbath helps the probes in their fucked up return route but noticed a glitch http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=64897 Anyways, This is what I was trying to show: Pylon Fix: http://www.flyupload.com/?fid=174727 Gas Fix: http://www.flyupload.com/?fid=6635017 http://www.flyupload.com/?fid=8864602 http://www.flyupload.com/?fid=4439677 Alternate Pylon Fix (just discovered): http://www.flyupload.com/?fid=1969930 It seems that the angle of attack (aviation term lol) can effect how the worker decides to return. Some probes can be manually manipulated to the other open side of the crystal and will return and come back on that correct (faster) path. Others will not regardless of which side the mine from. So a building such as a pylon will permanently correct it. Later on however, when the minerals are saturated it may or may not hinder mining due to wandering workers coming from all angles. | ||
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
On January 05 2008 12:02 Ilikestarcraft wrote: On luna at 12 they put it to the left of the cc to correct the mining path and on python 1.2 on 9 if you dont manually control your scv it goes all the way to the back like it got manner pyloned or something so a depot fixes that. And on some other maps like i guess zodiac has the same problem. Saw in the recent msl group games mind puts his depot to the bottom right of his cc at 11 o clock. I guess its the same as putting depots or a pool in the path of your gas so you can put 3 instead of 4 sometimes on some spots on luna. And i guess it makes a big difference cause i remember commentators mentioning that sometimes in mirror matchups you notice people with the same build order one having more scvs or a faster rax/fact. There is no 12 at luna, you mean 11 because thats where alot of terrans put their supply depot. | ||
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