EPTWhy ghosts are not used vs carriers and BCs?
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
SiarX
131 Posts
| ||
|
WGT-Baal
France3444 Posts
I encourage you to read the guidelines and if you are going to ask this type of question (hydra ZvT as well) please use the simple questions/simple answers thread instead of making a new thread each time. To your question, ghosts are used vs BC at times but it requires extra investments,tech and APM vs whatever you may have already on the field and as such may not be practical. I would think the same for carriers but Terran players probably have better analysis on this. | ||
|
kogeT
Poland2041 Posts
| ||
|
Terrorbladder
2719 Posts
On August 02 2023 05:05 SiarX wrote: There have been matches where the player trained Ghosts against Carriers/BCs, but the Ghost is a spellcaster that doesn't provide reliable damage despite belonging in the highest tier of the Terran techtree. In practice, the counter against Carriers is destroying the Protoss economy. BCs are countered by Wraiths/more BCs.In theory their lockdown is perfect counter to those units, is not it? | ||
|
Postaljester_
33 Posts
| ||
|
29 fps
United States5725 Posts
| ||
|
Terrorbladder
2719 Posts
On August 04 2023 14:17 29 fps wrote: Only 2 problems:I've always thought it could be used like queens in zvt vs mech. Get a bunch of them, let them gain energy, then surprise: lockdown. 1. Ghosts don't fly 2. When T isn't building fighting units, non-T races can punish faster | ||
|
MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
You also need dmg behind it in terms of wrats or gols. | ||
|
radley
Poland582 Posts
Normally in fight vs carriers there is no way to kill any carrier controlled by good player, so you need to spam attack goliaths in order to destroy interceptors, while carriers are continously decreasing your army. Against ghost you can push forward main army, since carriers will run away from ghosts and its assured they will destroy your units less often. Yes, moving ghosts requires extra actions, but you save much more actions from not having to spam click goliaths. Problem is only with transition, you have to scout carriers just after protoss starts warping them, to produce enough ghosts on time (around 3-4 vs 6 carriers). And you always have to keep them somewhere in the middle of your main army, thus they cannot be snipped easily, but still are a threat in main army vs main army fights. Getting cloak in critical situations always helps, since obs usually wanders somewhere above dragoons, not terran army with 20 goliaths and potentially science vessel. As for BCs there is no terran outside korea that can play well vs ghosts in a situation of even economy late game. The only thing as ghost player to do is to scan early and not let your opponent get more than 10 bcs. Which is relatively easy, because your mech / ghost army has much more units, so you should be able to break single siege positions in case of split map, while opponent is doing transition. Always get group of wraiths and micro out tanks / lockdowned bcs. Uber fun to play. | ||
|
stambe
Bulgaria492 Posts
On August 02 2023 23:41 Postaljester_ wrote: Lockdown is a strong spell, but I don’t know if that is enough. it runs into the same problem maelstrom does in pvz. The investment to get it and the apm costs of adding more stuff to your army hold it back. Go tell Best that. Maelstrom is a spell with instant cast and 10 range. DA has also 10 sight range. In theory it is the best counter of all races vs STACKED mutas, because the Zerg player cannot even see it in time to try to move out of the way. Also if you are really ballsy and precise, since Maelstrom is an AOE spell with a 3x3 affected area, you can target it next to the Muta clump to get +1 range, possibly extending the spell range to 11. Ghost eventually will be used vs Carriers, just like people realized that Queens are strong vs Mech, Valks are strong vs Mutas and DAs are strong vs Muta clumps/stacked Zerg air. It just takes for someone to start using them and they are not expensive as most people think. The problem is that people cannot recognize the right situation for them to be used and be effective. I have a few ideas, but whatever. When ТvP starts to get impossible vs Carriers, pros will start to look for an answer outside of the classic pure Goliath/turret spam. | ||
|
Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines596 Posts
ghosts are also used in fastest map as a counter to carriers, a ghost lockdown is actually equal range to a carrier, so generally the ghost will get a lockdown off before it is targeted by carriers. the problem is scanning the carrier switch in time to prepare ghosts fast enough. the reason why we don’t see either in low money is because gols are just as effective at killing carriers, and they will already be upgraded along with the rest of your mech army. | ||
|
radley
Poland582 Posts
| ||
|
MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
On August 07 2023 03:51 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: valks are also the aerial version of sieged tanks in the sense that their air attack upgrade scales so stupidly, +0 doing 48 splash, +1 for 56 splash, +2 for 64 splash, +3 for 72 splash damage Just to clarify if there is some confusion. The main damage (48 dmg without splash) can only be dealt once per volley, ie it cannot splash 48 dmg to all targets. Every volley 48 dmg is dealt no matter to whom and after that splash is added that depends upon radial range from the missile impact. Its 50% and 25% dmg. Caveat: The original aimed target if missed by missile will take NO splash even if in splash range. If the missile decide to hit original target it will be dealt original dmg Example of 2 wraiths beside each other: Missile impact is closer to original target, target gets 100% Missile impact is closer to 2nd wraith, it gets dealt original dmg and splash, the original target just beside will take NO dmg, even if its in range for splash. Conclusion: The dmg isnt as strong as it seems as all targets in range cant get the full dmg (48) per volley but instead 50% or 25%. https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28025492 In-game results: https://imgur.com/a/L8pmlug I guess my memory serves me wrong, seems original (aimed) target doesnt get any splash. A thing to note here is the missile impacted on the side of original target in both scenarios, indicating the full dmg is randomly chosen among the targets in range. If say this would miss the original target with every volley the original target would be untouched because its not eligible for splash for that reason, the original target is not supposed to get splashed at. As each missile is affected by armor reduction it dissipates to very small numbers like 0.5-1. Still with enough valks this ramps up to a lot of dmg and especially against a big fleet as there doesnt seem to be a cap on how many can be affected by splash. | ||
|
TT1
Canada10014 Posts
Against arb style i don't think it's as good because you have to optimize ur build differently. Against shuttle style they add a ton of utility and they're insanely supply efficient (and you can delay getting vessel vs this style so it synergizes well), i'd only get them after securing my 3rd as T tho. And in the lategame, shift commanding a random nuke at an expo before/during a fight is also insanely annoying to deal with as P (then you can vult raid even if you don't get the probes), moves like that are super action efficient. | ||
|
Aiur
Sweden138 Posts
Ghosts with medics & wraiths was used by the king Slayers_Boxer in TvP. It might one day return in the "meta" builds I think. | ||
|
stambe
Bulgaria492 Posts
On August 07 2023 03:51 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: for the time it takes to make one carrier with 8 interceptors, one starport could have pumped 6 valkyries. fighting at 2 valkeries for every 1 carrier, valks smash carriers, so you only need 1 starport for every 3 stargates. at the highest level of fastest map, you see brain shutting down carriers with valks, which scan has also mentioned this in his tier list stream with artosis. a problem arises when protoss mixes in arbiter to stasis valk balls, but protoss will never have the money to afford both carriers and arbiters in low-money games. valks are also the aerial version of sieged tanks in the sense that their air attack upgrade scales so stupidly, +0 doing 48 splash, +1 for 56 splash, +2 for 64 splash, +3 for 72 splash damage ghosts are also used in fastest map as a counter to carriers, a ghost lockdown is actually equal range to a carrier, so generally the ghost will get a lockdown off before it is targeted by carriers. the problem is scanning the carrier switch in time to prepare ghosts fast enough. the reason why we don’t see either in low money is because gols are just as effective at killing carriers, and they will already be upgraded along with the rest of your mech army. Can you post a link to that game where Brain uses Valks in 2:1 ratio vs Carriers ? | ||
|
KrillinFromwales
68 Posts
| ||
|
qet
Australia245 Posts
On August 02 2023 05:32 WGT-Baal wrote: Hello and welcome to TL. I see you are new with 17 posts. I encourage you to read the guidelines and if you are going to ask this type of question (hydra ZvT as well) please use the simple questions/simple answers thread instead of making a new thread each time. With respect - what's wrong with making a new thread? This forum has very little new threads and discussion as it is. What is the harm in creating a new thread? Let people debate some age-old broodwar questions. Who cares if it's been discussed before? It's fun to discuss it again. Is it not so? | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5219 Posts
On August 13 2023 19:44 qet wrote: With respect - what's wrong with making a new thread? This forum has very little new threads and discussion as it is. What is the harm in creating a new thread? Let people debate some age-old broodwar questions. Who cares if it's been discussed before? It's fun to discuss it again. Is it not so? Nothing wrong with making a new thread. The "harm" in creating a new thread is because of what was mentioned. A new thread isn't bad per se, but the amount of posts vs threads made and how little effort he put into making those threads speaks for itself. For any lurkers reading this: my post nor WGT-Baal's is to discourage you from posting. The forum is nicer for everyone if we all put a little effort. Posting guidelines can be found here: https://tl.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments | ||
|
Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines596 Posts
On August 12 2023 06:55 stambe wrote: Can you post a link to that game where Brain uses Valks in 2:1 ratio vs Carriers ? first game also here is hamburgersasu (top ~5 korean fastest map players) using valks vs 458!!'s carriers (458!! is one of the most abusive korean PvX fastest map players, you used to see him torment flash when flash dabbled in fastest map in early ASL days) | ||
|
ShibaT
Germany11 Posts
-If P has like 20 carriers your ghost won't help much -If you make ghost you don't want your enemy to see them before they are ready to shoot (mostly it will be a surprise during a big fight, caching offguard, flanking, even hidden in dropship possible) -Goal is mostly to hardly reduce or eliminate the first carrier stack so you don't have to deal with a shitload of carriers later on *Ghosts are excellent vs arbiters *vs BC it's also difficult/situational. BCs are slow but since you will encounter BC+Tanks it's often hard to catch them. Also in TvT everything will be scanned continous and your opponent will be prepared for sure. | ||
|
IvaNioX_twitch
25 Posts
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1044495380 | ||
| ||
