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Why recall is not used on tanks?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
102 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-04-21 10:33:15
April 21 2022 10:31 GMT
#1
It seems that recall is always used to get into terran base, but never to teleport zealots on tanks, bypassing their cover (vultures and mine fields) to instantly annihilate most dangerous part of terran army. I wonder why?
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-04-21 10:48:21
April 21 2022 10:45 GMT
#2
recall actually makes your army into a ball.. easily killed by tank splash. Its a terrible idea to recall into a tank area for that reason.

Mass shuttle is way better for spreading out zealots across the tank line.
-.-
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28637 Posts
April 21 2022 10:54 GMT
#3
You do occasionally see it, but it's very situational, basically it's only good in situations where stasis is also really good. IF there's a group of 8 clumped together tanks with mines next to them, recalling 10 zealots on top of them is a fantastic move. However, seeing 8 clumped together tanks will normally trigger a 'oh, I can stasis these' type of reaction (and most likely, you don't have a ready group of 10 zealots that can be easily recalled on top of them + that's more time consuming during an engagement than stasising is).

If the tanks are so spread out that you can only stasis 2-3 tanks, going for the recall is a good way to lose your recalled units while only killing those 2-3 tanks. And indeed, shuttles fill much of the same role.
Moderator
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States786 Posts
April 21 2022 22:40 GMT
#4
Horang2 recalling zealots onto tanks vs Flash
NAKR`flying
Sirris
Profile Joined November 2019
681 Posts
April 23 2022 05:34 GMT
#5
On April 22 2022 07:40 fearthequeen wrote:
Horang2 recalling zealots onto tanks vs Flash

I would describe that more as Horang2 recalling zealots on top of vultures. There were a ton of vultures and 3 tanks which caused the tanks to splash the vulture down
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
April 24 2022 23:46 GMT
#6
an extra reason is that T usually wants to aggressively prevent arbiters from getting close enough for a good stasis anyway so it's extra risky to attempt a recall on top of the tanks like that but yeah could be useful situationally
ajmbek
Profile Joined November 2008
Italy460 Posts
April 25 2022 13:30 GMT
#7
On April 21 2022 19:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
You do occasionally see it, but it's very situational, basically it's only good in situations where stasis is also really good. IF there's a group of 8 clumped together tanks with mines next to them, recalling 10 zealots on top of them is a fantastic move. However, seeing 8 clumped together tanks will normally trigger a 'oh, I can stasis these' type of reaction (and most likely, you don't have a ready group of 10 zealots that can be easily recalled on top of them + that's more time consuming during an engagement than stasising is).

If the tanks are so spread out that you can only stasis 2-3 tanks, going for the recall is a good way to lose your recalled units while only killing those 2-3 tanks. And indeed, shuttles fill much of the same role.



This + the fact that stasys is 50 less energy and also you can cast it from range, so the odd of loosing the arbiter are lower.
Sic iter ad astra
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1478 Posts
April 27 2022 14:16 GMT
#8
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.

2. If terran is fast enough and just unsieges the tanks you end up in an awkward spot where your goons "are not quite there yet" and your zealots dont do the damage that is needed before you lose them all. (this gets even worse when terran units are fully upgraded)

3. Tank lines can be deep or shallow, hard to know exactly before you go in with the recall. This WILL work very well if you have obs seeing the entire army and where to do the recall (creating an automatic flank), but generally better terrans tend to hunt obses, so it is harder to get it right.

4. Stasis costs less energy (already said, but it is important when timings are tight).

5. Mines can blow up your army and his army. If you are ahead this trade is definitely worth it, but with stasis you can potentially have better trades.

6. If you misstime the arbiter flying in with your army, your entire dragoon force will evaporate before the zealots are recalled. At that point you are instantly dead. The normal idea is to lose zealots, save goons, make zealots from games and engage again.
This is because of build time but also gas and mineral cost. 1-2 seconds too late from the arbiter getting into the exact position you want it to, that's 20 goons dead to a 3/3 army. Very high risk, average reward.

Compare this to a recall into the main of the terran:

Terran has to either,

A) Go back to his base, giving you extra time and deal with the damage you dealt.
B) Win with the forces he has on the map now.
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
oxKnu
Profile Joined December 2017
1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-04-27 18:21:27
April 27 2022 18:20 GMT
#9
It's higher variance than the alternatives. Obviously it can work and do a lot of damage against a poorly positioned Terran army however in practice most Terran balls always have a vessel, 3-4 goliaths and a couple of turrets near so that makes pulling an Arbiter over that highly risky especially since the Terran is not moving, so plenty of APM to handle that in more ways than one.

This type of recall works in very late game situations when Terran is out of vults, spread out with groups of tanks. Even small recalls can be effective this way since there are no mines around.

So the bottom line is, it's quite risky because Terrans these days have a very good defensive layout when moving out.
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States786 Posts
April 27 2022 21:48 GMT
#10
On April 23 2022 14:34 Sirris wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2022 07:40 fearthequeen wrote:
Horang2 recalling zealots onto tanks vs Flash

I would describe that more as Horang2 recalling zealots on top of vultures. There were a ton of vultures and 3 tanks which caused the tanks to splash the vulture down

So he recalled on top of the 3 key tanks on highground, allowing him to clear the whole army and secure the game. Perfect example in pro game of what OP was asking about. Not sure why you even responded.
NAKR`flying
ajmbek
Profile Joined November 2008
Italy460 Posts
April 29 2022 12:08 GMT
#11
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote:
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.



Have you done the math about this equation so you know it is exponential?
It has nothing to do with it.
Sic iter ad astra
BulgarianToss
Profile Joined May 2011
Bulgaria484 Posts
May 02 2022 10:07 GMT
#12
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote:
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.

2. If terran is fast enough and just unsieges the tanks you end up in an awkward spot where your goons "are not quite there yet" and your zealots dont do the damage that is needed before you lose them all. (this gets even worse when terran units are fully upgraded)

3. Tank lines can be deep or shallow, hard to know exactly before you go in with the recall. This WILL work very well if you have obs seeing the entire army and where to do the recall (creating an automatic flank), but generally better terrans tend to hunt obses, so it is harder to get it right.

4. Stasis costs less energy (already said, but it is important when timings are tight).

5. Mines can blow up your army and his army. If you are ahead this trade is definitely worth it, but with stasis you can potentially have better trades.

6. If you misstime the arbiter flying in with your army, your entire dragoon force will evaporate before the zealots are recalled. At that point you are instantly dead. The normal idea is to lose zealots, save goons, make zealots from games and engage again.
This is because of build time but also gas and mineral cost. 1-2 seconds too late from the arbiter getting into the exact position you want it to, that's 20 goons dead to a 3/3 army. Very high risk, average reward.

Compare this to a recall into the main of the terran:

Terran has to either,

A) Go back to his base, giving you extra time and deal with the damage you dealt.
B) Win with the forces he has on the map now.


Best analysis so far. I would add that arbiters in general became less effective in recent years which is probably why progamer protoss players decided that speed shuttles + reaver/storm deals more damage. You rarely see them going for recall or statis timings just because high level terran players can hit an emp with their eyes closed nowadays so arbiters just use up supply/resources in exchange for 0 damage.
music is the best thing in the world
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1478 Posts
May 04 2022 13:35 GMT
#13
On April 29 2022 21:08 ajmbek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote:
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.



Have you done the math about this equation so you know it is exponential?
It has nothing to do with it.



Well, it is an approximation (an exaggerated claim) but i can give you the variables:

1. Where is the terran's current concentration?

a) On his army and his vessel?
b) On his Minimap?
c) On his base?

Option A is worst for you, B is better, C is best. Every second that passes increases the odds Terran will have to be in option a).

2. How does the terran maneuver his army?

a) He has an easy to access hotkey used on the vessel and will use the vessel EMP hotkey to use the skill.
b) He has the Vessel hotkeyed but will manually choose emp.
c) He has to manually pick the vessel from hi army, hotkey use emp.
d) Ha has to manually chose vessel, manually choose emp.

3. How good is the terran mechanically. Meaning how fast can he execute and how well can he execute the EMP itself.

Will he panic EMP if he sees the arbiter close or will he react well even under stress?

Now, this is not a lot of variables, but they DO interact with each other a lot.

Best case scenario, the Terran will emp the arbiter in around 1 second after it enters his view.
Worst case scenario (in a very high level, korean pro game) is around 3 seconds. That is a very small window of opportunity, but it is enough to make a difference.

The reason i call it "exponentially" is because the difference from using your arb after 1 second of being in range to 3 seconds of being in range means you have a 90% chance to get our spell off vs a 10% chance. (again, we are talking about very high level of gameplay here).


This is where a good toss will throw in a monkey wrench and drop 4 random zealots into a mineral line to get option 1.c
since it is the only think they can impact.


Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all).

Not sure if this answers your question or if you will agree with it thou :D.
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1478 Posts
May 04 2022 13:38 GMT
#14
On May 02 2022 19:07 BulgarianToss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote:
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.

2. If terran is fast enough and just unsieges the tanks you end up in an awkward spot where your goons "are not quite there yet" and your zealots dont do the damage that is needed before you lose them all. (this gets even worse when terran units are fully upgraded)

3. Tank lines can be deep or shallow, hard to know exactly before you go in with the recall. This WILL work very well if you have obs seeing the entire army and where to do the recall (creating an automatic flank), but generally better terrans tend to hunt obses, so it is harder to get it right.

4. Stasis costs less energy (already said, but it is important when timings are tight).

5. Mines can blow up your army and his army. If you are ahead this trade is definitely worth it, but with stasis you can potentially have better trades.

6. If you misstime the arbiter flying in with your army, your entire dragoon force will evaporate before the zealots are recalled. At that point you are instantly dead. The normal idea is to lose zealots, save goons, make zealots from games and engage again.
This is because of build time but also gas and mineral cost. 1-2 seconds too late from the arbiter getting into the exact position you want it to, that's 20 goons dead to a 3/3 army. Very high risk, average reward.

Compare this to a recall into the main of the terran:

Terran has to either,

A) Go back to his base, giving you extra time and deal with the damage you dealt.
B) Win with the forces he has on the map now.


Best analysis so far. I would add that arbiters in general became less effective in recent years which is probably why progamer protoss players decided that speed shuttles + reaver/storm deals more damage. You rarely see them going for recall or statis timings just because high level terran players can hit an emp with their eyes closed nowadays so arbiters just use up supply/resources in exchange for 0 damage.



I had this weird feeling they were going for HTs because terrans have figured out the timings too well. I also kept wondering why protosses dont storm the mineral line of the terrans to slow them down but when I saw how fast they pull the scvs and how few die to storm drops I kinda got the memo. (Yu are probably better off dropping 1 DA with malestorm first, then the HT to be honest... Gonna have to try that one).
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
May 11 2022 20:51 GMT
#15
Best recalls onto tanks all the time. If you watch his channel you'll see it often. Mostly it's not about breaking a push, but when he's recalling T's base, he'll always drop the recall onto a clump of tanks if there is one.
May the BeSt man win.
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany2016 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-05-12 18:24:55
May 12 2022 18:20 GMT
#16
On May 04 2022 22:35 iloveav wrote:

Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all).


I'm not sure I understood. Just in case, you can't recall hallucinated units, any spell disolves them (e.g. Psi-Storm, D-Matrix, Ensnare,...). But you can infest a CC with the hallucination of a queen. Hallucination is a terrible spell to analyse, yet a fascinating one.
What might work, and which is also a stupid idea for various reasons, is to hallucinate the Terran army, instead of storming it. This triggers mines and causes Splash damage.
Or you could first hallucinate a potential vessel, to buy time for your arbiter to move in to then recall.
There seem to be so many useless ideas out there, I just quit and remember I never went beyond any B- rank. Probably becuase I tried more of these lines than I should admit publically, rather than work on my mechanics.
abuse
Profile Joined April 2011
Latvia1930 Posts
May 13 2022 09:57 GMT
#17
every time I've done it so far it resulted in everything I recalled melting within a second, so I've learned to not do it anymore.
I don't believe you.
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3352 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-05-26 19:18:39
May 26 2022 19:15 GMT
#18
On May 13 2022 03:20 GeckoXp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2022 22:35 iloveav wrote:

Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all).


I'm not sure I understood. Just in case, you can't recall hallucinated units, any spell disolves them (e.g. Psi-Storm, D-Matrix, Ensnare,...). But you can infest a CC with the hallucination of a queen. Hallucination is a terrible spell to analyse, yet a fascinating one.
What might work, and which is also a stupid idea for various reasons, is to hallucinate the Terran army, instead of storming it. This triggers mines and causes Splash damage.
Or you could first hallucinate a potential vessel, to buy time for your arbiter to move in to then recall.
There seem to be so many useless ideas out there, I just quit and remember I never went beyond any B- rank. Probably becuase I tried more of these lines than I should admit publically, rather than work on my mechanics.


wait you can hallucinate enemy units not just your own? For some reason I never tried, I have new tricks to experiment with now
Horang2 fan
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
May 30 2022 16:31 GMT
#19
On May 27 2022 04:15 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 13 2022 03:20 GeckoXp wrote:
On May 04 2022 22:35 iloveav wrote:

Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all).


I'm not sure I understood. Just in case, you can't recall hallucinated units, any spell disolves them (e.g. Psi-Storm, D-Matrix, Ensnare,...). But you can infest a CC with the hallucination of a queen. Hallucination is a terrible spell to analyse, yet a fascinating one.
What might work, and which is also a stupid idea for various reasons, is to hallucinate the Terran army, instead of storming it. This triggers mines and causes Splash damage.
Or you could first hallucinate a potential vessel, to buy time for your arbiter to move in to then recall.
There seem to be so many useless ideas out there, I just quit and remember I never went beyond any B- rank. Probably becuase I tried more of these lines than I should admit publically, rather than work on my mechanics.


wait you can hallucinate enemy units not just your own? For some reason I never tried, I have new tricks to experiment with now

you can see it done in this one : P
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3352 Posts
May 30 2022 19:47 GMT
#20
On May 31 2022 01:31 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2022 04:15 WGT-Baal wrote:
On May 13 2022 03:20 GeckoXp wrote:
On May 04 2022 22:35 iloveav wrote:

Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all).


I'm not sure I understood. Just in case, you can't recall hallucinated units, any spell disolves them (e.g. Psi-Storm, D-Matrix, Ensnare,...). But you can infest a CC with the hallucination of a queen. Hallucination is a terrible spell to analyse, yet a fascinating one.
What might work, and which is also a stupid idea for various reasons, is to hallucinate the Terran army, instead of storming it. This triggers mines and causes Splash damage.
Or you could first hallucinate a potential vessel, to buy time for your arbiter to move in to then recall.
There seem to be so many useless ideas out there, I just quit and remember I never went beyond any B- rank. Probably becuase I tried more of these lines than I should admit publically, rather than work on my mechanics.


wait you can hallucinate enemy units not just your own? For some reason I never tried, I have new tricks to experiment with now

you can see it done in this one : P https://youtu.be/DeIwFpakU9s?t=266


glorious! thanks for sharing
Horang2 fan
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