• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
TeamLiquid Liquipedia LiquidDota LiquidLegends
EDT 06:32
CEST 12:32
KST 19:32
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
WTL 2022 Summer - Week 2 Recap & Week 3 Preview8Rogue wins 4th GSL Code S Championship53Road to CCL S4: A World without Drafts1WTL 2022 Summer - Week 1 Recap & Week 2 Preview11Code S Season 1 Finals: Creator vs Rogue Preview32
Community News
DHM Valencia: Regionals Group Draw9Elazer Joins Team Liquid41[BSL15] Asia Championship - 16 - 22 May on Trovo3ESL Open #122: ByuN, Clem, Cure win1[BSL15] RO16 Groups, Maps, Schedule and more!9
StarCraft 2
General
DHM Valencia: Regionals Group Draw Rogue wins 4th GSL Code S Championship Elazer Joins Team Liquid What balance / design changes do you want to see? Why you should boycott the GSL
Tourneys
[GdA] Noob Tournament (Bronze to 3.8k) GdA-Night Tournament Good Game Cup 23 - Astrea, DRG, Nice, ByuN ITaX Super Series#79 - Cure, Solar, Creator & soO Afreeca World 94!
Strategy
What is the math on 17 nexus vs 20 nexus? Calling out PiG and Winter [G] PvZ: Nexus First into Dark Templar Drop [G] PvZ Cheese: +1 Zealot Dance Party
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Altitude StarLance | Extension Mod – Multiplayer LotV
External Content
Mutation # 317 Price of Progress Mutation # 316 Fright nigh Mutation # 315 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 314 Wheel of Misfortune:Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Some StarCraft Player Rankings Statistics New SC documentary [ASL13] Finals Preview: Ascension $300/month StarCraft Hack
Tourneys
Asia Championship forecast [BSL15] Asia Championship - 16 - 22 May on Trovo [BSL15] RO16 Groups, Maps, Schedule and more! BWCL season 56: preview and registration
Strategy
Add 1 medic per base vs storm drops TvT: Wraiths or Battlecruisers? Why recall is not used on tanks? TvP Rush vs Best and vulture harassment.
Other Games
Heroes of the Storm
HotS: WP and Funny Moments Road to CCL S4: A World without Drafts Road to CCL S4: Meeting the New Rosters META Madness 6: Where Heroes are Made
General Games
Total War: Warhammer III Path of Exile The XBox Thread Diablo 2 thread Ouya: New gaming console
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Chezinu streak(s) Mafia
Hearthstone
Introduce yourself!
LoL General
LoL Tournaments
LoL Strategy
Community
General
The Chinese Conundrum Trading/Investing Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector
Fan Clubs
The Creator Fan Club Zest Fan Club The Moon Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Manga] One Piece [TV] HBO Game of Thrones Korean Music Discussion
Sports
McBoner: A hockey love story 2021 - 2022 Football Thread 2021 NFL/CFB Season NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
Tech Support
The Ultimate Mouse Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
my maps
NicknameLucifer
Getting Back to it..!.20 years…
FuDDx
Computer tinkering and …
Starlightsun
Age
AmericanUmlaut
Is Team Liquid a light blue …
aisight
PCT Highlights: Lakes & Northe…
Tak3r
Mapmaking notes #4
depressed1
International Associatio…
Arghmyliver
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1021 users

Why recall is not used on tanks?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
SiarX
Profile Joined December 2021
12 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-04-21 10:33:15
April 21 2022 10:31 GMT
#1
It seems that recall is always used to get into terran base, but never to teleport zealots on tanks, bypassing their cover (vultures and mine fields) to instantly annihilate most dangerous part of terran army. I wonder why?
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden687 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-04-21 10:48:21
April 21 2022 10:45 GMT
#2
recall actually makes your army into a ball.. easily killed by tank splash. Its a terrible idea to recall into a tank area for that reason.

Mass shuttle is way better for spreading out zealots across the tank line.
-.-
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway27172 Posts
April 21 2022 10:54 GMT
#3
You do occasionally see it, but it's very situational, basically it's only good in situations where stasis is also really good. IF there's a group of 8 clumped together tanks with mines next to them, recalling 10 zealots on top of them is a fantastic move. However, seeing 8 clumped together tanks will normally trigger a 'oh, I can stasis these' type of reaction (and most likely, you don't have a ready group of 10 zealots that can be easily recalled on top of them + that's more time consuming during an engagement than stasising is).

If the tanks are so spread out that you can only stasis 2-3 tanks, going for the recall is a good way to lose your recalled units while only killing those 2-3 tanks. And indeed, shuttles fill much of the same role.
ModeratorI had to change my quote to seem more serious because I'm trying to use myself in an academic text :(
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States736 Posts
April 21 2022 22:40 GMT
#4
Horang2 recalling zealots onto tanks vs Flash
flying
Sirris
Profile Joined November 2019
681 Posts
April 23 2022 05:34 GMT
#5
On April 22 2022 07:40 fearthequeen wrote:
Horang2 recalling zealots onto tanks vs Flash

I would describe that more as Horang2 recalling zealots on top of vultures. There were a ton of vultures and 3 tanks which caused the tanks to splash the vulture down
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France1787 Posts
April 24 2022 23:46 GMT
#6
an extra reason is that T usually wants to aggressively prevent arbiters from getting close enough for a good stasis anyway so it's extra risky to attempt a recall on top of the tanks like that but yeah could be useful situationally
ajmbek
Profile Joined November 2008
Italy442 Posts
April 25 2022 13:30 GMT
#7
On April 21 2022 19:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
You do occasionally see it, but it's very situational, basically it's only good in situations where stasis is also really good. IF there's a group of 8 clumped together tanks with mines next to them, recalling 10 zealots on top of them is a fantastic move. However, seeing 8 clumped together tanks will normally trigger a 'oh, I can stasis these' type of reaction (and most likely, you don't have a ready group of 10 zealots that can be easily recalled on top of them + that's more time consuming during an engagement than stasising is).

If the tanks are so spread out that you can only stasis 2-3 tanks, going for the recall is a good way to lose your recalled units while only killing those 2-3 tanks. And indeed, shuttles fill much of the same role.



This + the fact that stasys is 50 less energy and also you can cast it from range, so the odd of loosing the arbiter are lower.
Sic iter ad astra
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1455 Posts
April 27 2022 14:16 GMT
#8
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.

2. If terran is fast enough and just unsieges the tanks you end up in an awkward spot where your goons "are not quite there yet" and your zealots dont do the damage that is needed before you lose them all. (this gets even worse when terran units are fully upgraded)

3. Tank lines can be deep or shallow, hard to know exactly before you go in with the recall. This WILL work very well if you have obs seeing the entire army and where to do the recall (creating an automatic flank), but generally better terrans tend to hunt obses, so it is harder to get it right.

4. Stasis costs less energy (already said, but it is important when timings are tight).

5. Mines can blow up your army and his army. If you are ahead this trade is definitely worth it, but with stasis you can potentially have better trades.

6. If you misstime the arbiter flying in with your army, your entire dragoon force will evaporate before the zealots are recalled. At that point you are instantly dead. The normal idea is to lose zealots, save goons, make zealots from games and engage again.
This is because of build time but also gas and mineral cost. 1-2 seconds too late from the arbiter getting into the exact position you want it to, that's 20 goons dead to a 3/3 army. Very high risk, average reward.

Compare this to a recall into the main of the terran:

Terran has to either,

A) Go back to his base, giving you extra time and deal with the damage you dealt.
B) Win with the forces he has on the map now.
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
oxKnu
Profile Joined December 2017
1050 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-04-27 18:21:27
April 27 2022 18:20 GMT
#9
It's higher variance than the alternatives. Obviously it can work and do a lot of damage against a poorly positioned Terran army however in practice most Terran balls always have a vessel, 3-4 goliaths and a couple of turrets near so that makes pulling an Arbiter over that highly risky especially since the Terran is not moving, so plenty of APM to handle that in more ways than one.

This type of recall works in very late game situations when Terran is out of vults, spread out with groups of tanks. Even small recalls can be effective this way since there are no mines around.

So the bottom line is, it's quite risky because Terrans these days have a very good defensive layout when moving out.
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States736 Posts
April 27 2022 21:48 GMT
#10
On April 23 2022 14:34 Sirris wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2022 07:40 fearthequeen wrote:
Horang2 recalling zealots onto tanks vs Flash

I would describe that more as Horang2 recalling zealots on top of vultures. There were a ton of vultures and 3 tanks which caused the tanks to splash the vulture down

So he recalled on top of the 3 key tanks on highground, allowing him to clear the whole army and secure the game. Perfect example in pro game of what OP was asking about. Not sure why you even responded.
flying
ajmbek
Profile Joined November 2008
Italy442 Posts
April 29 2022 12:08 GMT
#11
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote:
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.



Have you done the math about this equation so you know it is exponential?
It has nothing to do with it.
Sic iter ad astra
BulgarianToss
Profile Joined May 2011
Bulgaria390 Posts
May 02 2022 10:07 GMT
#12
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote:
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.

2. If terran is fast enough and just unsieges the tanks you end up in an awkward spot where your goons "are not quite there yet" and your zealots dont do the damage that is needed before you lose them all. (this gets even worse when terran units are fully upgraded)

3. Tank lines can be deep or shallow, hard to know exactly before you go in with the recall. This WILL work very well if you have obs seeing the entire army and where to do the recall (creating an automatic flank), but generally better terrans tend to hunt obses, so it is harder to get it right.

4. Stasis costs less energy (already said, but it is important when timings are tight).

5. Mines can blow up your army and his army. If you are ahead this trade is definitely worth it, but with stasis you can potentially have better trades.

6. If you misstime the arbiter flying in with your army, your entire dragoon force will evaporate before the zealots are recalled. At that point you are instantly dead. The normal idea is to lose zealots, save goons, make zealots from games and engage again.
This is because of build time but also gas and mineral cost. 1-2 seconds too late from the arbiter getting into the exact position you want it to, that's 20 goons dead to a 3/3 army. Very high risk, average reward.

Compare this to a recall into the main of the terran:

Terran has to either,

A) Go back to his base, giving you extra time and deal with the damage you dealt.
B) Win with the forces he has on the map now.


Best analysis so far. I would add that arbiters in general became less effective in recent years which is probably why progamer protoss players decided that speed shuttles + reaver/storm deals more damage. You rarely see them going for recall or statis timings just because high level terran players can hit an emp with their eyes closed nowadays so arbiters just use up supply/resources in exchange for 0 damage.
music is the best thing in the world
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1455 Posts
May 04 2022 13:35 GMT
#13
On April 29 2022 21:08 ajmbek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote:
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.



Have you done the math about this equation so you know it is exponential?
It has nothing to do with it.



Well, it is an approximation (an exaggerated claim) but i can give you the variables:

1. Where is the terran's current concentration?

a) On his army and his vessel?
b) On his Minimap?
c) On his base?

Option A is worst for you, B is better, C is best. Every second that passes increases the odds Terran will have to be in option a).

2. How does the terran maneuver his army?

a) He has an easy to access hotkey used on the vessel and will use the vessel EMP hotkey to use the skill.
b) He has the Vessel hotkeyed but will manually choose emp.
c) He has to manually pick the vessel from hi army, hotkey use emp.
d) Ha has to manually chose vessel, manually choose emp.

3. How good is the terran mechanically. Meaning how fast can he execute and how well can he execute the EMP itself.

Will he panic EMP if he sees the arbiter close or will he react well even under stress?

Now, this is not a lot of variables, but they DO interact with each other a lot.

Best case scenario, the Terran will emp the arbiter in around 1 second after it enters his view.
Worst case scenario (in a very high level, korean pro game) is around 3 seconds. That is a very small window of opportunity, but it is enough to make a difference.

The reason i call it "exponentially" is because the difference from using your arb after 1 second of being in range to 3 seconds of being in range means you have a 90% chance to get our spell off vs a 10% chance. (again, we are talking about very high level of gameplay here).


This is where a good toss will throw in a monkey wrench and drop 4 random zealots into a mineral line to get option 1.c
since it is the only think they can impact.


Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all).

Not sure if this answers your question or if you will agree with it thou :D.
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1455 Posts
May 04 2022 13:38 GMT
#14
On May 02 2022 19:07 BulgarianToss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote:
6 reasons I see:

1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach.

2. If terran is fast enough and just unsieges the tanks you end up in an awkward spot where your goons "are not quite there yet" and your zealots dont do the damage that is needed before you lose them all. (this gets even worse when terran units are fully upgraded)

3. Tank lines can be deep or shallow, hard to know exactly before you go in with the recall. This WILL work very well if you have obs seeing the entire army and where to do the recall (creating an automatic flank), but generally better terrans tend to hunt obses, so it is harder to get it right.

4. Stasis costs less energy (already said, but it is important when timings are tight).

5. Mines can blow up your army and his army. If you are ahead this trade is definitely worth it, but with stasis you can potentially have better trades.

6. If you misstime the arbiter flying in with your army, your entire dragoon force will evaporate before the zealots are recalled. At that point you are instantly dead. The normal idea is to lose zealots, save goons, make zealots from games and engage again.
This is because of build time but also gas and mineral cost. 1-2 seconds too late from the arbiter getting into the exact position you want it to, that's 20 goons dead to a 3/3 army. Very high risk, average reward.

Compare this to a recall into the main of the terran:

Terran has to either,

A) Go back to his base, giving you extra time and deal with the damage you dealt.
B) Win with the forces he has on the map now.


Best analysis so far. I would add that arbiters in general became less effective in recent years which is probably why progamer protoss players decided that speed shuttles + reaver/storm deals more damage. You rarely see them going for recall or statis timings just because high level terran players can hit an emp with their eyes closed nowadays so arbiters just use up supply/resources in exchange for 0 damage.



I had this weird feeling they were going for HTs because terrans have figured out the timings too well. I also kept wondering why protosses dont storm the mineral line of the terrans to slow them down but when I saw how fast they pull the scvs and how few die to storm drops I kinda got the memo. (Yu are probably better off dropping 1 DA with malestorm first, then the HT to be honest... Gonna have to try that one).
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2608 Posts
May 11 2022 20:51 GMT
#15
Best recalls onto tanks all the time. If you watch his channel you'll see it often. Mostly it's not about breaking a push, but when he's recalling T's base, he'll always drop the recall onto a clump of tanks if there is one.
May the BeSt man win.
GeckoXp
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
Germany1992 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-05-12 18:24:55
May 12 2022 18:20 GMT
#16
On May 04 2022 22:35 iloveav wrote:

Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all).


I'm not sure I understood. Just in case, you can't recall hallucinated units, any spell disolves them (e.g. Psi-Storm, D-Matrix, Ensnare,...). But you can infest a CC with the hallucination of a queen. Hallucination is a terrible spell to analyse, yet a fascinating one.
What might work, and which is also a stupid idea for various reasons, is to hallucinate the Terran army, instead of storming it. This triggers mines and causes Splash damage.
Or you could first hallucinate a potential vessel, to buy time for your arbiter to move in to then recall.
There seem to be so many useless ideas out there, I just quit and remember I never went beyond any B- rank. Probably becuase I tried more of these lines than I should admit publically, rather than work on my mechanics.
abuse
Profile Joined April 2011
Latvia1909 Posts
May 13 2022 09:57 GMT
#17
every time I've done it so far it resulted in everything I recalled melting within a second, so I've learned to not do it anymore.
I don't believe you.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 28m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ROOTSuperNova 333
DPG herO 305
Harstem 195
AxAlicia23
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 5146
actioN 1987
Jaedong 1557
Larva 894
Rush 788
Mini 456
scan(afreeca) 427
Light 181
Sharp 138
Jumperer 137
[ Show more ]
Snow 79
Shine 76
Barracks 34
sas.Sziky 21
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
pimpcsgo2379
fl0m1803
flusha288
Other Games
DeMusliM776
WinterStarcraft576
Livibee350
crisheroes325
OGKoka 206
Westballz3
Organizations
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
PGL75971
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 1706
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
ESL CS:GO517
StarCraft 2
OGamingTV SC2 68
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• SC2Artist 22
• IndyKCrew
• Poblha
• aXEnki
• intothetv
• Gussbus
• Kozan
• Alpha X_
• LaughNgamez Trovo
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• sscaitournament1
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• STPLYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Upcoming Events
BSL: ProLeague
1h 28m
Deathfate Pro Team League
13h 58m
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
1d 12h
Deathfate Pro Team League
1d 13h
ITaX Super Series
2 days
Cure vs Solar
Creator vs soO
OSC
2 days
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
3 days
ESL Pro Tour
4 days
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
5 days
ESL Pro Tour
6 days
[ Show More ]
ESL Pro Tour
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 15 Asia
2022 GSL S1: Code S
Heroes Rise: Contender Series 3
BLAST Spr. Showdown AME

Ongoing

RCG 2021
CWCL Season 4
Deathfate Pro Team League
HoneyCai Friendlies Season4
FS Mania
CSCL: Masked Kings
CSL season 5 Late Spring Cup
BSL Season 15 LA
WTL 2022 Summer
Championship of Russia 2022
Community Clash League S4
Masters Clash Champ. 2022
ESL Challenger League S41 NA
ESL Challenger League S41 EU
ESL Challenger League S41 APAC
Pinnacle Cup IV
PGL Major Antwerp 2022

Upcoming

BSL Season 15
BSL Season 15 EU
BSL Season 15 NA
DH Masters Valencia
StarCraft II: NationWars 7
2022 GSL S2: Code S
DHM Valencia: CN
DHM Valencia: NA
DHM Valencia: EU
DHM Valencia: LA
DHM Valencia: OC
DHM Valencia: TW
IEM Cologne 2022
ESL Challenger Valencia 2022
EPL Conference Season 16
BLAST Premier Spring Finals
Pinnacle Cup Championship
ESL Impact League S1 Finals
IEM Dallas 2022
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2022 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.