EPTWhy recall is not used on tanks?
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SiarX
110 Posts
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Mass shuttle is way better for spreading out zealots across the tank line. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28728 Posts
If the tanks are so spread out that you can only stasis 2-3 tanks, going for the recall is a good way to lose your recalled units while only killing those 2-3 tanks. And indeed, shuttles fill much of the same role. | ||
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fearthequeen
United States788 Posts
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Sirris
681 Posts
On April 22 2022 07:40 fearthequeen wrote: Horang2 recalling zealots onto tanks vs Flash I would describe that more as Horang2 recalling zealots on top of vultures. There were a ton of vultures and 3 tanks which caused the tanks to splash the vulture down  | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On April 21 2022 19:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: You do occasionally see it, but it's very situational, basically it's only good in situations where stasis is also really good. IF there's a group of 8 clumped together tanks with mines next to them, recalling 10 zealots on top of them is a fantastic move. However, seeing 8 clumped together tanks will normally trigger a 'oh, I can stasis these' type of reaction (and most likely, you don't have a ready group of 10 zealots that can be easily recalled on top of them + that's more time consuming during an engagement than stasising is). If the tanks are so spread out that you can only stasis 2-3 tanks, going for the recall is a good way to lose your recalled units while only killing those 2-3 tanks. And indeed, shuttles fill much of the same role. This + the fact that stasys is 50 less energy and also you can cast it from range, so the odd of loosing the arbiter are lower. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1479 Posts
1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach. 2. If terran is fast enough and just unsieges the tanks you end up in an awkward spot where your goons "are not quite there yet" and your zealots dont do the damage that is needed before you lose them all. (this gets even worse when terran units are fully upgraded) 3. Tank lines can be deep or shallow, hard to know exactly before you go in with the recall. This WILL work very well if you have obs seeing the entire army and where to do the recall (creating an automatic flank), but generally better terrans tend to hunt obses, so it is harder to get it right. 4. Stasis costs less energy (already said, but it is important when timings are tight). 5. Mines can blow up your army and his army. If you are ahead this trade is definitely worth it, but with stasis you can potentially have better trades. 6. If you misstime the arbiter flying in with your army, your entire dragoon force will evaporate before the zealots are recalled. At that point you are instantly dead. The normal idea is to lose zealots, save goons, make zealots from games and engage again. This is because of build time but also gas and mineral cost. 1-2 seconds too late from the arbiter getting into the exact position you want it to, that's 20 goons dead to a 3/3 army. Very high risk, average reward. Compare this to a recall into the main of the terran: Terran has to either, A) Go back to his base, giving you extra time and deal with the damage you dealt. B) Win with the forces he has on the map now. | ||
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oxKnu
1240 Posts
This type of recall works in very late game situations when Terran is out of vults, spread out with groups of tanks. Even small recalls can be effective this way since there are no mines around. So the bottom line is, it's quite risky because Terrans these days have a very good defensive layout when moving out. | ||
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fearthequeen
United States788 Posts
On April 23 2022 14:34 Sirris wrote: I would describe that more as Horang2 recalling zealots on top of vultures. There were a ton of vultures and 3 tanks which caused the tanks to splash the vulture down So he recalled on top of the 3 key tanks on highground, allowing him to clear the whole army and secure the game. Perfect example in pro game of what OP was asking about. Not sure why you even responded. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote: 6 reasons I see: 1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach. Have you done the math about this equation so you know it is exponential? It has nothing to do with it. | ||
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BulgarianToss
Bulgaria490 Posts
On April 27 2022 23:16 iloveav wrote: 6 reasons I see: 1. Arbiters generally also have to contend with EMP, the longer you wait to use the energy, the higher (exponentially) the odds are that you will get EMPed and not do anything with the arbiter. Thus Stasis tends to be the safer approach. 2. If terran is fast enough and just unsieges the tanks you end up in an awkward spot where your goons "are not quite there yet" and your zealots dont do the damage that is needed before you lose them all. (this gets even worse when terran units are fully upgraded) 3. Tank lines can be deep or shallow, hard to know exactly before you go in with the recall. This WILL work very well if you have obs seeing the entire army and where to do the recall (creating an automatic flank), but generally better terrans tend to hunt obses, so it is harder to get it right. 4. Stasis costs less energy (already said, but it is important when timings are tight). 5. Mines can blow up your army and his army. If you are ahead this trade is definitely worth it, but with stasis you can potentially have better trades. 6. If you misstime the arbiter flying in with your army, your entire dragoon force will evaporate before the zealots are recalled. At that point you are instantly dead. The normal idea is to lose zealots, save goons, make zealots from games and engage again. This is because of build time but also gas and mineral cost. 1-2 seconds too late from the arbiter getting into the exact position you want it to, that's 20 goons dead to a 3/3 army. Very high risk, average reward. Compare this to a recall into the main of the terran: Terran has to either, A) Go back to his base, giving you extra time and deal with the damage you dealt. B) Win with the forces he has on the map now. Best analysis so far. I would add that arbiters in general became less effective in recent years which is probably why progamer protoss players decided that speed shuttles + reaver/storm deals more damage. You rarely see them going for recall or statis timings just because high level terran players can hit an emp with their eyes closed nowadays so arbiters just use up supply/resources in exchange for 0 damage. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1479 Posts
On April 29 2022 21:08 ajmbek wrote: Have you done the math about this equation so you know it is exponential? It has nothing to do with it. Well, it is an approximation (an exaggerated claim) but i can give you the variables: 1. Where is the terran's current concentration? a) On his army and his vessel? b) On his Minimap? c) On his base? Option A is worst for you, B is better, C is best. Every second that passes increases the odds Terran will have to be in option a). 2. How does the terran maneuver his army? a) He has an easy to access hotkey used on the vessel and will use the vessel EMP hotkey to use the skill. b) He has the Vessel hotkeyed but will manually choose emp. c) He has to manually pick the vessel from hi army, hotkey use emp. d) Ha has to manually chose vessel, manually choose emp. 3. How good is the terran mechanically. Meaning how fast can he execute and how well can he execute the EMP itself. Will he panic EMP if he sees the arbiter close or will he react well even under stress? Now, this is not a lot of variables, but they DO interact with each other a lot. Best case scenario, the Terran will emp the arbiter in around 1 second after it enters his view. Worst case scenario (in a very high level, korean pro game) is around 3 seconds. That is a very small window of opportunity, but it is enough to make a difference. The reason i call it "exponentially" is because the difference from using your arb after 1 second of being in range to 3 seconds of being in range means you have a 90% chance to get our spell off vs a 10% chance. (again, we are talking about very high level of gameplay here). This is where a good toss will throw in a monkey wrench and drop 4 random zealots into a mineral line to get option 1.c since it is the only think they can impact. Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all). Not sure if this answers your question or if you will agree with it thou :D. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1479 Posts
On May 02 2022 19:07 BulgarianToss wrote: Best analysis so far. I would add that arbiters in general became less effective in recent years which is probably why progamer protoss players decided that speed shuttles + reaver/storm deals more damage. You rarely see them going for recall or statis timings just because high level terran players can hit an emp with their eyes closed nowadays so arbiters just use up supply/resources in exchange for 0 damage. I had this weird feeling they were going for HTs because terrans have figured out the timings too well. I also kept wondering why protosses dont storm the mineral line of the terrans to slow them down but when I saw how fast they pull the scvs and how few die to storm drops I kinda got the memo. (Yu are probably better off dropping 1 DA with malestorm first, then the HT to be honest... Gonna have to try that one). | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On May 04 2022 22:35 iloveav wrote: Of course you can make just 1 HT with hallucination and laugh your ass off after the terran EMPs 2 fake arbs or feedback the ball (just saying, we toss still got some more tricks that we ain't using at all). I'm not sure I understood. Just in case, you can't recall hallucinated units, any spell disolves them (e.g. Psi-Storm, D-Matrix, Ensnare,...). But you can infest a CC with the hallucination of a queen. Hallucination is a terrible spell to analyse, yet a fascinating one. What might work, and which is also a stupid idea for various reasons, is to hallucinate the Terran army, instead of storming it. This triggers mines and causes Splash damage. Or you could first hallucinate a potential vessel, to buy time for your arbiter to move in to then recall. There seem to be so many useless ideas out there, I just quit and remember I never went beyond any B- rank. Probably becuase I tried more of these lines than I should admit publically, rather than work on my mechanics. | ||
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abuse
Latvia1942 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3425 Posts
On May 13 2022 03:20 GeckoXp wrote: I'm not sure I understood. Just in case, you can't recall hallucinated units, any spell disolves them (e.g. Psi-Storm, D-Matrix, Ensnare,...). But you can infest a CC with the hallucination of a queen. Hallucination is a terrible spell to analyse, yet a fascinating one. What might work, and which is also a stupid idea for various reasons, is to hallucinate the Terran army, instead of storming it. This triggers mines and causes Splash damage. Or you could first hallucinate a potential vessel, to buy time for your arbiter to move in to then recall. There seem to be so many useless ideas out there, I just quit and remember I never went beyond any B- rank. Probably becuase I tried more of these lines than I should admit publically, rather than work on my mechanics. wait you can hallucinate enemy units not just your own? For some reason I never tried, I have new tricks to experiment with now | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On May 27 2022 04:15 WGT-Baal wrote: wait you can hallucinate enemy units not just your own? For some reason I never tried, I have new tricks to experiment with now you can see it done in this one : P | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3425 Posts
On May 31 2022 01:31 ProMeTheus112 wrote: you can see it done in this one : P https://youtu.be/DeIwFpakU9s?t=266 glorious! thanks for sharing | ||
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