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[H] TvP from a noob perspective

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Velo1a
Profile Joined April 2017
6 Posts
December 25 2021 15:55 GMT
#1
Hi guys

I played BW maaany years ago and I just started playing again a few weeks back. I've been following Starleague on and off for the past many years so I know what I am supposed do but as all bad players I struggle to implement it - especially vs. protoss.

I seem to run into the problem of consistenly being outmacroed by players on similar level (D-rank). I've tried build a lot of marines while building up normally, I've tried siege expand with wall in, and I've tried rushing. I've also tried heavy turtle but the makes me just loose later on than normal.

Only rushing has won me any games vs. protoss. Also when they fuck up to no fault of mine but that doesn't count here.

How do you fellow noobs deal with this problem? Is it just a lot more practice?

All in all on the same level I assume we pretty have the same macro skills and skills in general.
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-12-25 17:00:59
December 25 2021 16:53 GMT
#2
Sad true about this matchup is you have to be at least level above (so C vs D) if you want to consistently win games as terran. This difference changes only on S rank tier, when both players are on level high enough, so that Terran pontential as a race can be greater than protoss, and protoss player lacks space to improve a lot. Macro mechanics for protoss are twice as easy as for terran. Terran to reach really good mechanics needs to be on smth like 2500 mmr level. Whereas protoss can reach macro potential on around 2300, so the only thing he may be lacking is micro management or some proper build adjustments.
But generally on your level you should focus on improving mechanics. Watch scvs constant production, add factories when you have excesive resources. For now you can opt for something like 2 bases pushes, like 2-1 upgrades 6-7 fact production push. That should be a good training for both macro mechanics and general army management, which is also crucial. For now I would completely avoid any kind of early rushes (do not let you improve a lot) or dropships / vulture harrassement play (you cannot handle it correctly on this level, so usually you are going to fall back in game because of it).
TL+ Member
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10360 Posts
December 25 2021 17:31 GMT
#3
The truth is that you should almost never have the same supply and army count as the Protoss until 200/200, simply because as kogeT said, their macro is not only easier but also more cost efficient. Exceptions are when you go for a high factory count timing push with a high Vulture count to punish Protoss expansion timing. Outside of that, Gateways are cheaper than Factories, they come online earlier in the game, Protoss in general usually has more bases than you, etc.

Terran is about timing and positioning. Using Mines and Siege mode is more difficult than using Zealots and Dragoons at lower levels. You need to use the Mines to know when the enemy is approaching in order to know when to Siege up. You need to Siege up on time and protect your Tanks to win battles. It is the nature of the MU and the units you use.

Timings give you an opportunity to match Protoss army count. For example, if Protoss takes a 3rd base off of 3 Gateways, then Terran can go for a 5 Factory timing push and have comparable army. For that, you need to scout what the Protoss is doing and plan ahead to hit a timing after one or two macro rounds. That way you will have the amount of army needed to fight the Protoss.

So, the short answer is git gud. Don't miss macro cycles, do scout well, lay Mines, don't get caught unsieged, etc. You have to develop a habit and feel for these things, and that comes with practice. Find a practice partner and try the same approach over and over, such as 5 Fac to punish fast 3rd. Or, practice moving out slowly with Siege and Mines.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
quaristice
Profile Joined February 2021
136 Posts
December 25 2021 21:44 GMT
#4
so as a fellow noob (random main), my terran account hovers at the border between E and D rank, and i struggle a lot with TvT and TvZ, and TvP is the one i feel confident in. i have a protoss (mid-E) account too, and PvT is actually my other matchup i feel comfortable, so I see both sides of this. TvP/PvT are the only matchups where i beat C rank players when I get matched into them.

so from the terran side, i notice many protosses even up to the C rank ones get impatient and just try to attack and break a terran that's in a strong defensive position. from the protoss side, i notice terrans sort of expect me to get impatient and attack them, and when i don't, and i just take the whole map, they struggle and eventually do a very sloppy attack later.

it's difficult for me to say what's exactly wrong with what you are doing without a replay, but at D rank, your protoss opponents are also going to be slipping up on their macro quite a bit. so saying "well, my macro was bad" isn't a good indicator. though i will say, that i notice with low rank terrans, the things that hurt macro the most are:
- bad factory placement. making it hard to click on them, making it hard to place a full optimal number of them, making tanks get stuck leaving the base, etc. bad factory placement is also a big contributor to losing to recalls, carriers, and drops
- overmicroing (especially vulture harass)
- low scv count
- the number one problem: no plan after the initial build order

you should have a clear plan. before you build your first depot, you should have a plan about whether or not you want to build a 3rd expansion in this game, and if so, how are you going to do that?

terran is like batman, if batman has a plan he can beat superman, but if he has no plan, he's just a some guy. if both players have no plan, the protoss usually wins.

that's not to say your plan should not be flexible. like if you were planning to attack off 2 base and you scan and the protoss has a billion gateways and no tech, just slow-push into expanding instead

i notice D rank terrans miss upgrades a lot. focus on getting your upgrades on time. it's so important for T against P.

i think in general unless you have a very clear knowledge about the gamestate from scouting, you should slow push at this rank. when i say clear knowledge, i mean you see an empty path to enemy natural, or they are spending a billion money on carriers, or something similar.

in this matchup both players can be 1000x efficient with an attack, because everyone is making many mistakes at this rank. so just play carefully and patiently. at D rank everyone plays very slowly, so you have time. i don't mean APM, i mean, everyone's gameplay is slow. people move around the map slowly, plan slowly, expand slowly. the protosses need time to set up too (loading units into shuttle, spreading out, scouting, etc). so you have time to push slower than you see high rank players push. so act like a big amoeba that's engulfing the map.

spread your tanks out. dont siege them all at once. put your tanks up against map geometry so they cant be surrounded as easily. with every tank think "what would be the most annoying place for this to be". keep scanning and floating buildings and scout with vultures so you always know where the attacks can be coming from. build depots and turrets on the map. if you run out of vultures, pull back your tanks or reinforce quickly. if you run out of tanks you probably lost.

i know the common wisdom about low rank games is that they're mostly decided by who builds more stuff, and i do that's true about most matchups except for pvt/tvp. because if you can be 1000x efficient, it doesnt matter if your opponent built 1000x more units than you.
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