• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:53
CEST 18:53
KST 01:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-69SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-64PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)14
StarCraft 2
General
Protoss AoE skill expression August World Ranking: Clem climbs to #2 Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Serral wins HomeStory Cup 29 StarCraft 2 at SC4ALL II Invite #4/8 - Percival
Tourneys
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion How FlaSh Nearly Forfeited MSL Finals being late BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Are you ready for ASL 22? NEW HYPE VIDEO BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2v2v2v2 Tournament KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo 2 thread ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live!
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Iain M Banks Says He Has Cancer And Months To Live European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Are High-Level Gamers more A…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3287 users

Dumb ZvT build (detailed)

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
A41589956
Profile Joined March 2021
2 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-19 16:26:35
October 19 2021 15:11 GMT
#1
I want to share a build that I've been doing on ladder at low A rank (~2000) with surprisingly high success rate.
It is meant to be played vs 1rax FE on 4player maps and is a variation of the modern fast carapace style.

Artosis once summarized that crazy zerg is so strong since zerg needs to only do two things:

1) Get carapace
2) Not die


You might notice that this does not mention any kind of "mutalisk harrassment" so we might as well leave that step out.

The build is a regular 3hatch before gas where the third hatch is placed at another natural. After lair we immediately get +1 carapace. Once lair is done, we skip both lurker and muta and instead get a few queens while teching to ultras.

We'll rely on pure sunkens and a few queens to survive until the first ultras pop around the ~10 minute mark. Until then, we build only drones and sunkens for defence.

Queens are the key ingredient that holds all of this together.
They enable us to scout. Ensnare is used to help defend sunken busts. Broodling is researched as reaction to a tank push.


BUILD ORDER

12 hatch at nat
11/12/13 pool
send out two drones + Show Spoiler +
After pool, send out 2 drones to different spawning locations. One drone is used to scout and to confirm we're up vs 1rax FE and the other one is used to expand

~13-15 third hatch at another natural + Show Spoiler +
Honestly, at first I felt strange when taking a third this early but terrans rarely tried to punish this. Once you have sunkens, and we're making many sunkens with this build, this is as safe as your natural.

We take a natural (instead of a main) to be able to put down sunkens to protect again frontal attacks and so we get the main in the back for free.

@100% pool get some lings. + Show Spoiler +
I prefer to get only 2 since I won't be getting zergling speed until hive. One zergling is used to chase the SCV in your base and the other to see your opponent move out with his first group of MM. Obviously, adapt your build and get more lings when you get pressured or bunker rushed etc.

~13-15 Gas in your main
@100 Gas: Lair into evolution chamber
@100% Evolution chamber: +1 carapace

@50% 3. hatch: send out a drone to your third. + Show Spoiler +
It will arrive right when the hatch finishes so you can put down a creep colony. Put down a creep colony at your natural as well.

@100% Lair: Queens Nest and 2. gas

Terran moves out + Show Spoiler +
A common timing for stim is ~5:15-6:00 depending on their build. Make sure to have 3sunkens each when the M&M arrive at your natural or third.


@100% Queen's Nest: get 3 queens and research ensnare+ Show Spoiler +
Your queen's nest will pop at around 30-34 / 35 supply. You need to get a preemptive overlord to not get supply stuck.

@Queens pop: Use one queen to scout your opponent's main. Adjust your build depending on what you scout.

+ Show Spoiler +

It's important to keep this queen alive and return it home, so be careful.

By now, terran will have scanned your base and is scratching his head in confusion. Terran will have 3-5 barracks depending on their build. You can keep the queen somewhere close to the terran's base to confirm what they're going for. The responses I've faced so far were

1) M&M sunken bust + Show Spoiler +
Increase sunken count according to the number of barracks and M&M. A good rule of thumb is to have a number of sunkens at each natural equal to *game time in minutes*-1. You need to be careful with your sunken placement to be able to fit enough at your natural. If terran tries to bust, use ensnare on M&M.

The DPS on ensnared marines is low enough such that if you think your defence might get broken, you can start more sunkens while the fight is going on and they will finish before you run out of energy to ensnare.

You can hotkey your sunkens and target fire to counter healing from medics, but I almost never needed this.


2) Tank push + Show Spoiler +
Upgrade broodling. When adding sunkens, spread them out. If terran stays on one factory, your three queens with broodling will give you enough time to get ultras. If you scout 2 or more factories, get more queens.


3) Fast starport(s) play + Show Spoiler +
Consider getting a faster spire. Your only source of worry is a 2 dropship play which can hit before your first ultras are out.


4) Random shit + Show Spoiler +
In this category I've faced a mech switch, a fast nuke and a mass wraith transition.

The nuke one is countered since you can just broodling the ghost.

Mass wraiths suck.

The mech switch leaves you in a position where you're simply better off since you've done nothing other than get economy and upgrades and you're on 4 base.




Continue to make drones while adding sunkens at your natural and your third; When money allows:
4. hatch at the main behind your 3. hatch
Gas at your 3rd
Hive
Spire
Gas at your 4th
@100% Hive: ultralisk cavern, 2. evolution chamber, Nydus to connect your natural and your third
+ Show Spoiler +
At this point, you're at 60-80 supply which is mostly drones and >1k gas bank. Make sure to adapt your build as described above to not die to any frontal attacks. It is common to have ~8-10 sunkens on each side.

@100% Nydus: transfer drones from your main/nat and saturate your 4th
@100% Ultralisk cavern: Upgrade carapace and start making cows
+ Show Spoiler +

Now you sit behind your sunkens and make cows. You'll catch up in supply. Basically you just win.

I think it is reasonable to assume that good terrans will find a way to pick apart the build at an earlier stage. However in my experience, if you've made it this far, it's gg. Terran bio simply cannot handle

+4 carapace ultras
on 4 gas
on 4 saturated bases
at ~11 minutes

Once you have 8-10 ultras and your +4 carapace is ready, you can move out + Show Spoiler +
Terran likely has his bio ball parked in front of your third or your natural, so use your nydus to get a good engage. If needed, use ensnare on big clumps of M&M.

Double expand + Show Spoiler +
Your upgraded ultras should allow you to gain map control. If the terran plays well, you won't be able to kill him outright because of tanks/mines/sim city. Terran should not be able to defeat you on the open map, therefore double expand.



Some more general remarks.

Be thoughful about sunken placement. You'll need to have enough place for ~10 at your natural in addition to a nydus, while leaving a gap for ultras. I found it useful to start the very first sunken directly next to the hatch (as opposed to further out).

In this build I found it best not to make any zerglings nor get zergling speed until very late, except if you need to defend vs a drop which hits before ultras are out. One reason is that we'll have a low amount of hatches compared to the number of drones, thus larva efficiency is important. Another reason is that zerglings get useless once the M&M ball reaches a critical size, therefore you'd much rather have another 6 drones/sunkens when you face any sort of sunken bust.

I'll add a few replays soon. In the meantime feel free to try out the build or point out why it's terrible.

+ Show Spoiler +
I thought the name OGRE ZERG might be fitting. You kind of sit back behind your sunkens being all tanky and stuff until you get to jizz on their marines with your queens. Later smash them with cows.


MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
October 19 2021 17:28 GMT
#2
I definitely want replays of this and what do you do vs air or drops?
-.-
Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia979 Posts
October 19 2021 18:50 GMT
#3
This type of build kind of banks on terran not reading it well and being too passive/overdefending. Which can happen, but won't have much success higher.

A terran who didn't have to cut scvs to make turrets and didn't lose any scvs to mutas, is a very, very scary thing.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway772 Posts
October 19 2021 20:56 GMT
#4
This looks like a fun and easy build, will try thx for good discription.
Would pay to see someone beat Artosis with this xD
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
October 20 2021 06:51 GMT
#5
I think this build could do well as long as Terran does a build that delays the factory (such as +1 5 rax). Otherwise, are your queens going to be in time to broodling a tank/bio push? That being said I really like the creativity of this build.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2042 Posts
October 20 2021 08:32 GMT
#6
Amazing build, will use 100%!
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-20 09:13:46
October 20 2021 09:13 GMT
#7
You cant broodling ghost that is under sv, and this move should be habbitat for terran when doing timing nuke push. Also by seeing queen and no muta play terran should just take fast 3rd with gas and add 2 armories and vult with mines + wallin and tanks on ramp to survive first push.
TL+ Member
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1156 Posts
October 20 2021 10:54 GMT
#8
On October 20 2021 18:13 radley wrote:
You cant broodling ghost that is under sv, and this move should be habbitat for terran when doing timing nuke push. Also by seeing queen and no muta play terran should just take fast 3rd with gas and add 2 armories and vult with mines + wallin and tanks on ramp to survive first push.


i always thought a nuke timing push would be pretty deadly against all these crazy zerg strats, but i don't have a progamer license who used to play 16 hrs a day every day so what do i know
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1470 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-20 20:10:35
October 20 2021 20:10 GMT
#9
On October 20 2021 00:11 A41589956 wrote:
I thought the name OGRE ZERG might be fitting. You kind of sit back behind your sunkens being all tanky and stuff until you get to jizz on their marines with your queens. Later smash them with cows.

Good idea, but as the general theme of the build is to lean back behind sunkens and wait for cows, I think Lazy Zerg would be even more fitting - and it's a nice play on Crazy Zerg, too!
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28875 Posts
October 21 2021 12:42 GMT
#10
I used a build quite similar to this on Third World with quite some success. Third world was however particularly cool for this type of approach because you only really had to sunken up your natural.
Moderator
krooked
Profile Joined May 2011
376 Posts
October 22 2021 10:07 GMT
#11
Against spire-less crazy zerg I just go quad dropship before vessel and doom drop the main.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway772 Posts
October 24 2021 15:21 GMT
#12
I suck at this game and play at 1500 rating but this strategy is so fun to play xD
Something deeply satisfying about using ensnare on a big group of mnm while watching sunkens pwn them down
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1143 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-31 10:05:39
October 31 2021 10:05 GMT
#13
On October 20 2021 18:13 radley wrote:
You cant broodling ghost that is under sv, and this move should be habbitat for terran when doing timing nuke push. Also by seeing queen and no muta play terran should just take fast 3rd with gas and add 2 armories and vult with mines + wallin and tanks on ramp to survive first push.



Artosis was able to land a nuke at around 11 minutes, so you just need +4 ultras behind the sunkens at that point


I think getting the spire is a good idea, you don't need to build mutalisks, but when the terran skips turrets even 7 mutas can do a lot of economic harass. This also makes taking an early third hard for the Terran, since you can just make a ton of mutas to harass on three sides

So get a spire at normal timing and see if there's any use in getting the mutas, you need scourge anyway
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
November 01 2021 03:58 GMT
#14
I can land 2 nukes at once in 8:15 if you want to bargain. Its better in TvT though.
TL+ Member
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1143 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-12 08:27:29
November 12 2021 08:21 GMT
#15
On November 01 2021 12:58 radley wrote:
I can land 2 nukes at once in 8:15 if you want to bargain. Its better in TvT though.

You CAN, but I make a spire when playing this build. How do you know I won't make mutas and just kill you?

But I actually don't make that many muta, just enough to emergency morph to guardians. Usually I face a quick tank push, though. I don't know how guardians would do vs. a nuke rush. I guess you could make 0-1 slow ultras anyway as long as you have something not to die
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The Patches Monday
16:00
#2
RotterdaM614
TaKeTV 254
IndyStarCraft 126
SteadfastSC90
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 614
TKL 187
IndyStarCraft 126
SteadfastSC 90
ProTech84
UpATreeSC 76
BRAT_OK 59
StarCraft: Brood War
Soulkey 789
BeSt 417
ggaemo 238
actioN 196
Light 194
soO 150
Rush 93
Hyun 50
Sharp 39
Hm[arnc] 29
[ Show more ]
Pusan 25
scan(afreeca) 22
ToSsGirL 20
HiyA 16
910 13
Sacsri 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
Dota 2
qojqva3437
Counter-Strike
x6flipin844
edward12
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang040
Other Games
singsing1729
B2W.Neo902
hiko859
Grubby828
FrodaN767
Hui .220
ArmadaUGS217
mouzStarbuck207
ceh9195
Liquid`VortiX195
QueenE72
Mew2King53
MindelVK4
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 25
• Shameless 17
• Reevou 5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV995
League of Legends
• Nemesis2008
• Jankos1416
• TFBlade667
• Shiphtur526
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
17h 8m
PiG Sty Festival
19h 8m
PiGosaur Cup
1d 7h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 18h
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
The Patches Monday
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-09
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
Proleague 2026-08-10
RSL Revival: Season 6
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
META DYMY #4
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.