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Dumb ZvT build (detailed)

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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A41589956
Profile Joined March 2021
2 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-19 16:26:35
October 19 2021 15:11 GMT
#1
I want to share a build that I've been doing on ladder at low A rank (~2000) with surprisingly high success rate.
It is meant to be played vs 1rax FE on 4player maps and is a variation of the modern fast carapace style.

Artosis once summarized that crazy zerg is so strong since zerg needs to only do two things:

1) Get carapace
2) Not die


You might notice that this does not mention any kind of "mutalisk harrassment" so we might as well leave that step out.

The build is a regular 3hatch before gas where the third hatch is placed at another natural. After lair we immediately get +1 carapace. Once lair is done, we skip both lurker and muta and instead get a few queens while teching to ultras.

We'll rely on pure sunkens and a few queens to survive until the first ultras pop around the ~10 minute mark. Until then, we build only drones and sunkens for defence.

Queens are the key ingredient that holds all of this together.
They enable us to scout. Ensnare is used to help defend sunken busts. Broodling is researched as reaction to a tank push.


BUILD ORDER

12 hatch at nat
11/12/13 pool
send out two drones + Show Spoiler +
After pool, send out 2 drones to different spawning locations. One drone is used to scout and to confirm we're up vs 1rax FE and the other one is used to expand

~13-15 third hatch at another natural + Show Spoiler +
Honestly, at first I felt strange when taking a third this early but terrans rarely tried to punish this. Once you have sunkens, and we're making many sunkens with this build, this is as safe as your natural.

We take a natural (instead of a main) to be able to put down sunkens to protect again frontal attacks and so we get the main in the back for free.

@100% pool get some lings. + Show Spoiler +
I prefer to get only 2 since I won't be getting zergling speed until hive. One zergling is used to chase the SCV in your base and the other to see your opponent move out with his first group of MM. Obviously, adapt your build and get more lings when you get pressured or bunker rushed etc.

~13-15 Gas in your main
@100 Gas: Lair into evolution chamber
@100% Evolution chamber: +1 carapace

@50% 3. hatch: send out a drone to your third. + Show Spoiler +
It will arrive right when the hatch finishes so you can put down a creep colony. Put down a creep colony at your natural as well.

@100% Lair: Queens Nest and 2. gas

Terran moves out + Show Spoiler +
A common timing for stim is ~5:15-6:00 depending on their build. Make sure to have 3sunkens each when the M&M arrive at your natural or third.


@100% Queen's Nest: get 3 queens and research ensnare+ Show Spoiler +
Your queen's nest will pop at around 30-34 / 35 supply. You need to get a preemptive overlord to not get supply stuck.

@Queens pop: Use one queen to scout your opponent's main. Adjust your build depending on what you scout.

+ Show Spoiler +

It's important to keep this queen alive and return it home, so be careful.

By now, terran will have scanned your base and is scratching his head in confusion. Terran will have 3-5 barracks depending on their build. You can keep the queen somewhere close to the terran's base to confirm what they're going for. The responses I've faced so far were

1) M&M sunken bust + Show Spoiler +
Increase sunken count according to the number of barracks and M&M. A good rule of thumb is to have a number of sunkens at each natural equal to *game time in minutes*-1. You need to be careful with your sunken placement to be able to fit enough at your natural. If terran tries to bust, use ensnare on M&M.

The DPS on ensnared marines is low enough such that if you think your defence might get broken, you can start more sunkens while the fight is going on and they will finish before you run out of energy to ensnare.

You can hotkey your sunkens and target fire to counter healing from medics, but I almost never needed this.


2) Tank push + Show Spoiler +
Upgrade broodling. When adding sunkens, spread them out. If terran stays on one factory, your three queens with broodling will give you enough time to get ultras. If you scout 2 or more factories, get more queens.


3) Fast starport(s) play + Show Spoiler +
Consider getting a faster spire. Your only source of worry is a 2 dropship play which can hit before your first ultras are out.


4) Random shit + Show Spoiler +
In this category I've faced a mech switch, a fast nuke and a mass wraith transition.

The nuke one is countered since you can just broodling the ghost.

Mass wraiths suck.

The mech switch leaves you in a position where you're simply better off since you've done nothing other than get economy and upgrades and you're on 4 base.




Continue to make drones while adding sunkens at your natural and your third; When money allows:
4. hatch at the main behind your 3. hatch
Gas at your 3rd
Hive
Spire
Gas at your 4th
@100% Hive: ultralisk cavern, 2. evolution chamber, Nydus to connect your natural and your third
+ Show Spoiler +
At this point, you're at 60-80 supply which is mostly drones and >1k gas bank. Make sure to adapt your build as described above to not die to any frontal attacks. It is common to have ~8-10 sunkens on each side.

@100% Nydus: transfer drones from your main/nat and saturate your 4th
@100% Ultralisk cavern: Upgrade carapace and start making cows
+ Show Spoiler +

Now you sit behind your sunkens and make cows. You'll catch up in supply. Basically you just win.

I think it is reasonable to assume that good terrans will find a way to pick apart the build at an earlier stage. However in my experience, if you've made it this far, it's gg. Terran bio simply cannot handle

+4 carapace ultras
on 4 gas
on 4 saturated bases
at ~11 minutes

Once you have 8-10 ultras and your +4 carapace is ready, you can move out + Show Spoiler +
Terran likely has his bio ball parked in front of your third or your natural, so use your nydus to get a good engage. If needed, use ensnare on big clumps of M&M.

Double expand + Show Spoiler +
Your upgraded ultras should allow you to gain map control. If the terran plays well, you won't be able to kill him outright because of tanks/mines/sim city. Terran should not be able to defeat you on the open map, therefore double expand.



Some more general remarks.

Be thoughful about sunken placement. You'll need to have enough place for ~10 at your natural in addition to a nydus, while leaving a gap for ultras. I found it useful to start the very first sunken directly next to the hatch (as opposed to further out).

In this build I found it best not to make any zerglings nor get zergling speed until very late, except if you need to defend vs a drop which hits before ultras are out. One reason is that we'll have a low amount of hatches compared to the number of drones, thus larva efficiency is important. Another reason is that zerglings get useless once the M&M ball reaches a critical size, therefore you'd much rather have another 6 drones/sunkens when you face any sort of sunken bust.

I'll add a few replays soon. In the meantime feel free to try out the build or point out why it's terrible.

+ Show Spoiler +
I thought the name OGRE ZERG might be fitting. You kind of sit back behind your sunkens being all tanky and stuff until you get to jizz on their marines with your queens. Later smash them with cows.


MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
October 19 2021 17:28 GMT
#2
I definitely want replays of this and what do you do vs air or drops?
-.-
Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia936 Posts
October 19 2021 18:50 GMT
#3
This type of build kind of banks on terran not reading it well and being too passive/overdefending. Which can happen, but won't have much success higher.

A terran who didn't have to cut scvs to make turrets and didn't lose any scvs to mutas, is a very, very scary thing.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway764 Posts
October 19 2021 20:56 GMT
#4
This looks like a fun and easy build, will try thx for good discription.
Would pay to see someone beat Artosis with this xD
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
October 20 2021 06:51 GMT
#5
I think this build could do well as long as Terran does a build that delays the factory (such as +1 5 rax). Otherwise, are your queens going to be in time to broodling a tank/bio push? That being said I really like the creativity of this build.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2041 Posts
October 20 2021 08:32 GMT
#6
Amazing build, will use 100%!
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-20 09:13:46
October 20 2021 09:13 GMT
#7
You cant broodling ghost that is under sv, and this move should be habbitat for terran when doing timing nuke push. Also by seeing queen and no muta play terran should just take fast 3rd with gas and add 2 armories and vult with mines + wallin and tanks on ramp to survive first push.
TL+ Member
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1148 Posts
October 20 2021 10:54 GMT
#8
On October 20 2021 18:13 radley wrote:
You cant broodling ghost that is under sv, and this move should be habbitat for terran when doing timing nuke push. Also by seeing queen and no muta play terran should just take fast 3rd with gas and add 2 armories and vult with mines + wallin and tanks on ramp to survive first push.


i always thought a nuke timing push would be pretty deadly against all these crazy zerg strats, but i don't have a progamer license who used to play 16 hrs a day every day so what do i know
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1448 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-20 20:10:35
October 20 2021 20:10 GMT
#9
On October 20 2021 00:11 A41589956 wrote:
I thought the name OGRE ZERG might be fitting. You kind of sit back behind your sunkens being all tanky and stuff until you get to jizz on their marines with your queens. Later smash them with cows.

Good idea, but as the general theme of the build is to lean back behind sunkens and wait for cows, I think Lazy Zerg would be even more fitting - and it's a nice play on Crazy Zerg, too!
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28751 Posts
October 21 2021 12:42 GMT
#10
I used a build quite similar to this on Third World with quite some success. Third world was however particularly cool for this type of approach because you only really had to sunken up your natural.
Moderator
krooked
Profile Joined May 2011
376 Posts
October 22 2021 10:07 GMT
#11
Against spire-less crazy zerg I just go quad dropship before vessel and doom drop the main.
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway764 Posts
October 24 2021 15:21 GMT
#12
I suck at this game and play at 1500 rating but this strategy is so fun to play xD
Something deeply satisfying about using ensnare on a big group of mnm while watching sunkens pwn them down
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1058 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-10-31 10:05:39
October 31 2021 10:05 GMT
#13
On October 20 2021 18:13 radley wrote:
You cant broodling ghost that is under sv, and this move should be habbitat for terran when doing timing nuke push. Also by seeing queen and no muta play terran should just take fast 3rd with gas and add 2 armories and vult with mines + wallin and tanks on ramp to survive first push.



Artosis was able to land a nuke at around 11 minutes, so you just need +4 ultras behind the sunkens at that point


I think getting the spire is a good idea, you don't need to build mutalisks, but when the terran skips turrets even 7 mutas can do a lot of economic harass. This also makes taking an early third hard for the Terran, since you can just make a ton of mutas to harass on three sides

So get a spire at normal timing and see if there's any use in getting the mutas, you need scourge anyway
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
November 01 2021 03:58 GMT
#14
I can land 2 nukes at once in 8:15 if you want to bargain. Its better in TvT though.
TL+ Member
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1058 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-11-12 08:27:29
November 12 2021 08:21 GMT
#15
On November 01 2021 12:58 radley wrote:
I can land 2 nukes at once in 8:15 if you want to bargain. Its better in TvT though.

You CAN, but I make a spire when playing this build. How do you know I won't make mutas and just kill you?

But I actually don't make that many muta, just enough to emergency morph to guardians. Usually I face a quick tank push, though. I don't know how guardians would do vs. a nuke rush. I guess you could make 0-1 slow ultras anyway as long as you have something not to die
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