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Valkyrie dmg formula? - Page 3

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
January 10 2021 00:03 GMT
#41
Most unit data is actually stored in separate files in the MPQs.
stambe
Profile Joined May 2005
Bulgaria492 Posts
May 09 2021 14:09 GMT
#42
This is too much programing and difficult calculations for me. What i wanna know is - do valkyries cost wise inflict more damage to clumped mutas/air units compared to corsairs ?
Valks rulzz
WolFix
Profile Joined December 2009
Poland38 Posts
May 11 2021 08:52 GMT
#43
Nice discoveries. I always wondered if the SCV movement during building is fully randomized or deterministic in some way?
ZOrb_
Profile Joined May 2021
16 Posts
May 12 2021 01:57 GMT
#44
Awesome write up @StRyKeR. I did a bunch of testing myself, as well as a review of the BWAPI (Although, this can't be considered as gospel, right? It is a fan project, not source code, no?) and I came to the exact same conclusions as you. The only thing I did not specifically test was the "super damage" that you mention, although it does seem plausible. Anyways, I think the best way to conceptualize the Valkyrie missile attack is that it was maybe inspired by how real Anti Air homing missiles operate. Basically, the warhead does not impact a target, but rather explodes nearby in a shaped blast that sends shrapnel into a target aircraft, but also releases a pressure wave due to the explosion. So anyways, I think of it like that. On detonation the HALO missile picks a target nearby (within a 100px radius) to fire its shrapnel at, dealing heavy damage, and collaterally damages any OTHER targets within that explosion radius with the blast wave. Anyways I lowkey like to roleplay like this as it kinda makes the games more fun and immersive.

Also stand by everyone - I'm going to release a map soon that demos how to get perfect U-Turn micro on the Valkyrie, allowing you to fire backwards without glitching basically 100% of the time :_)
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-12 13:45:14
May 12 2021 13:44 GMT
#45
I did a post about that. Check my previous posts where i show how to aim your patrol-click and position your valk.

What do you mean "without glitching"?
-.-
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
May 12 2021 15:04 GMT
#46
On May 12 2021 10:57 ZOrb_ wrote:
Awesome write up @StRyKeR. I did a bunch of testing myself, as well as a review of the BWAPI (Although, this can't be considered as gospel, right? It is a fan project, not source code, no?)


It is source code. Not Blizzard source code of course, but it does accurately reproduce the game's behaviour. If it didn't you couldn't run things like a replay viewer on it.
ZOrb_
Profile Joined May 2021
16 Posts
May 12 2021 17:52 GMT
#47
Hey Saber, I found your post and it describes it PERFECTLY. I'm kinda surprised there are no replies because I feel like a lot of people tend to mess up or misunderstand that micro with the Valkyrie. The key is not to "click behind", but rather order the unit to do a RIGHT or LEFT U-turn - whichever one will allow the targeting scan to see the enemy in front as it spins around. I am almost done making both a Valk U-turn demo map as well as a practice map that should get this info out there.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
May 12 2021 20:07 GMT
#48
Sounds good. Make a new post about it when ure done
-.-
stambe
Profile Joined May 2005
Bulgaria492 Posts
May 13 2021 13:15 GMT
#49
On May 13 2021 02:52 ZOrb_ wrote:
Hey Saber, I found your post and it describes it PERFECTLY. I'm kinda surprised there are no replies because I feel like a lot of people tend to mess up or misunderstand that micro with the Valkyrie. The key is not to "click behind", but rather order the unit to do a RIGHT or LEFT U-turn - whichever one will allow the targeting scan to see the enemy in front as it spins around. I am almost done making both a Valk U-turn demo map as well as a practice map that should get this info out there.


That would be sweet ! What do you mean to order the unit to do a left or right U-turn ? Like dont do patrol behind the valk, but at the side 45 degree angle ? Sorry for the question, but there is conflicting tips about valk micro all over the internet.
Valks rulzz
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-13 14:54:36
May 13 2021 14:33 GMT
#50
@stambe if your valkyrie is going straight north and your target is north west you should patrol to the area that makes the valkyrie turn towards the target and not away from the target. If your valkyrie turns the wrong direction it wont shoot.

[image loading]
-.-
GGmano
Profile Joined February 2021
103 Posts
May 14 2021 11:25 GMT
#51
As far as i know Valkyries use center splash dmg so it definately matters where the missiles hit.. like nuke ,archon and tank splash center splash does 100% to the inner circle and (not fully sure on the lesser circles but i think its) second circle 75%or50% and outta circle is 50%or25%.. the circle diameter on the different center splash types variate, the nuke has the largest circle area
Poegim
Profile Joined February 2017
Poland264 Posts
May 15 2021 07:04 GMT
#52
Where is Orders::class ?
Aka: Poezja[T4], Zulu. [[ Probably second best player in the world. In honor of my best friend Moagim, he was a Kraken from the sea. Poegim ]]
ZOrb_
Profile Joined May 2021
16 Posts
May 15 2021 08:53 GMT
#53
When you patrol click 'behind' the Valkyrie, you are basically giving it 1 of 2 possible orders: Turn CLOCKWISE and retreat, or turn COUNTERCLOCKWISE and retreat. By clicking directly behind, the Valkyrie will choose to turn towards the shortest path. If your Valkyrie is facing north and you click behind and slightly to the right, it will turn clockwise, slightly left and it will turn counterclockwise. When you click exactly behind, you are basically leaving it up to chance whether it will turn right or left. I will explain this further in my Valkyrie practice and demo maps. I should be done in about a week and I will post them here.
iloveav
Profile Joined November 2008
Poland1478 Posts
May 16 2021 14:41 GMT
#54
Please do remember that if you are shooting zerg or protoss, regen is to be accounted for. The lower the effective damage is, the higher the effectivness of the regeneration.

That is why a single valk is not as scary, but getting it dead soon is a priority for zerg in zvt.

(well... i am assuming that because I am toss :D).
aka LRM)Cats_Paw.
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-19 13:05:57
May 19 2021 12:46 GMT
#55
Firebathero uploaded an interesting video recently regarding interceptors and splash damage (he often does deep dives into Starcraft engine behavior via experiments in game):



It's in Korean, but the gist is that he figures out that air units do NO splash to interceptors (as I've found by reading the source code) but ground units and spells do. He tested this by having a group of enemy interceptors (adjusted to 0 shields, 1 hp, 0 damage) attack a tanky unit (e.g. his own Command Center) and then attacking moving into the interceptors with units that have artificially inflated damage. The valk killed 8 units per volley (so one per missile) and the corsair killed one unit per attack, implying no splash damage being done.

However, he finds one more interesting quirk, which is that when his valk attacks his own Command Center, he ends up killing 2-3 interceptors per volley, apparently doing splash. When his corsair attacks his own Command Center, once in a very long while does he kill an interceptor, apparently doing splash.

This phenomenon is again explained by our reading of the source code:

1) yes, indeed, blizzard made a special exception for interceptors to never be included in the splash queue for taking air splash damage

2) valk missiles land in a wide region and do not always land close to the target, so in the case of the Command Center, if the Command Center isn't within the inner splash radius of a valk missile, the full queue is populated with interceptors within the outer splash radius and a RANDOM unit from this queue is chosen to take full damage

3) when a corsair misses its target (every ranged unit has a miss chance of 1/256), the center of the hit is shifted a bit, and since the inner splash radius is fairly small, it may no longer include the target in question, in which case the full queue is populated with interceptors within the outer splash radius and a RANDOM unit from this queue is chosen to take full damage

This brings up one more point, which is that why is the behavior different when attacking interceptors directly versus his own Command Center. The answer is that it is still explained.

In the case of the valk attacking moving into interceptors, each valk missile likely rarely includes the original target in the full queue because interceptors are small and fast moving, and picking a random one within the larger splash radius. Since a valk has huge larger splash radius, it should almost always never have an empty full queue, thus getting one kill per missile. You don't get 8 kills per volley with the Command Center because it is large and stationary so you are fairly likely for the targeted missile to get within the inner splash radius to it to not have to randomly pick from its full queue.

Similarly, the corsair, when it doesn't miss with 1/256 chance, will land its "missile" directly on the unit and so does not have to pick randomly from its full queue.

We can make one more prediction as a result of this understanding which firebathero's video does not show, which is that the valk shouldn't ALWAYS kill 8 interceptors per volley when attack moving into the group of interceptors, which should occur if 1) a missile finds no interceptors within the outer splash radius (rare) or 2) two missiles overkill the same interceptor (rare).

I imagine we'd blow his mind if we told him a valk missile can do > 100% damage sometimes.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-20 13:37:49
May 20 2021 13:26 GMT
#56
On May 19 2021 21:46 StRyKeR wrote:3) when a corsair misses its target (every ranged unit has a miss chance of 1/256), the center of the hit is shifted a bit, and since the inner splash radius is fairly small, it may no longer include the target in question, in which case the full queue is populated with interceptors within the outer splash radius and a RANDOM unit from this queue is chosen to take full damage.

Miss chance only applies to ranged ground attacks (and even for ground attacks it might be just sloppy coding rather than an intended mechanic). Corsairs always hit. The occasional Interceptor kill is from Interceptors that actually were within the 100% splash area when the attack hit.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-20 13:43:23
May 20 2021 13:41 GMT
#57
On May 14 2021 20:25 GGmano wrote:
As far as i know Valkyries use center splash dmg so it definately matters where the missiles hit.. like nuke ,archon and tank splash center splash does 100% to the inner circle and (not fully sure on the lesser circles but i think its) second circle 75%or50% and outta circle is 50%or25%.. the circle diameter on the different center splash types variate, the nuke has the largest circle area

Splash radii work different for air units. Read the thread. It is all explained in here, all the way down to the code level.

On May 15 2021 17:53 ZOrb_ wrote:
When you patrol click 'behind' the Valkyrie, you are basically giving it 1 of 2 possible orders: Turn CLOCKWISE and retreat, or turn COUNTERCLOCKWISE and retreat. By clicking directly behind, the Valkyrie will choose to turn towards the shortest path. If your Valkyrie is facing north and you click behind and slightly to the right, it will turn clockwise, slightly left and it will turn counterclockwise. When you click exactly behind, you are basically leaving it up to chance whether it will turn right or left. I will explain this further in my Valkyrie practice and demo maps. I should be done in about a week and I will post them here.

All air micro is basically Chinese triangles…
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1739 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-20 16:19:16
May 20 2021 16:10 GMT
#58
On May 20 2021 22:26 Freakling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 19 2021 21:46 StRyKeR wrote:3) when a corsair misses its target (every ranged unit has a miss chance of 1/256), the center of the hit is shifted a bit, and since the inner splash radius is fairly small, it may no longer include the target in question, in which case the full queue is populated with interceptors within the outer splash radius and a RANDOM unit from this queue is chosen to take full damage.

Miss chance only applies to ranged ground attacks (and even for ground attacks it might be just sloppy coding rather than an intended mechanic). Corsairs always hit. The occasional Interceptor kill is from Interceptors that actually were within the 100% splash area when the attack hit.


That's what I thought, but firebathero slows down the replay and zooms in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAYEr34dzfE&t=430s.

The corsair clearly misses the CC, so it must be the case that air units can miss.

Also, your understanding of air splash is incorrect here. If you assume the corsair never misses, then it CANNOT deal damage to any interceptor because its target is the CC and the full queue is populated with ONLY the original target if it is within the inner splash radius, which must be the case if the corsair does not miss since the CC is stationary.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-21 10:44:32
May 20 2021 19:26 GMT
#59
On May 21 2021 01:10 StRyKeR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 20 2021 22:26 Freakling wrote:
On May 19 2021 21:46 StRyKeR wrote:3) when a corsair misses its target (every ranged unit has a miss chance of 1/256), the center of the hit is shifted a bit, and since the inner splash radius is fairly small, it may no longer include the target in question, in which case the full queue is populated with interceptors within the outer splash radius and a RANDOM unit from this queue is chosen to take full damage.

Miss chance only applies to ranged ground attacks (and even for ground attacks it might be just sloppy coding rather than an intended mechanic). Corsairs always hit. The occasional Interceptor kill is from Interceptors that actually were within the 100% splash area when the attack hit.


That's what I thought, but firebathero slows down the replay and zooms in here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAYEr34dzfE&t=430s.

The corsair clearly misses the CC, so it must be the case that air units can miss.

Also, your understanding of air splash is incorrect here. If you assume the corsair never misses, then it CANNOT deal damage to any interceptor because its target is the CC and the full queue is populated with ONLY the original target if it is within the inner splash radius, which must be the case if the corsair does not miss since the CC is stationary.

Anti-air attacks definitely have no miss chance. Since air units are not influenced by terrain levels miss chances are not applied when they are attacked.
I suspect the reason for the target switch may be the difference between the CC position (centre of the CC) and the hit position of the attack which is far enough offset to put the CC outside the inner splash radius.

EDIT: Although looking at the distance function, as long as the weapon sprite is within the bounding box of the unit it should still be the primary target:
int unit_distance_to(const unit_t* u, xy pos) const {
return xy_length(pos - nearest_pos_in_rect(pos, unit_sprite_bounding_box(u)));
}

So there must be something else going on entirely. Maybe lifted buildings don't have a bounding box…

EDIT: Nevermind, according to in-game testing miss chance seems to apply to air splash attacks, but not to single target air attacks.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-21 07:49:33
May 21 2021 07:22 GMT
#60
https://ufile.io/lgpfy3bl Air to Air have miss chance. Time: 13:06 - 13:07 and from what i can tell it didnt do damage.

https://ufile.io/j7azbhu3 Corsair vs CC. Time 1:41 - 1:42. Miss is a hit.

https://ufile.io/25dj506u vs scourge. Takes full damage also even though its a miss (Base 20 dmg, 10 dmg vs scourge. Took 10 dmg on miss)
-.-
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