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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
Some reasons I can think of for a map being good for 2 Hatch Muta are: - short air distances - open entrances for a third (like Blue Storm) so it's difficult to defend with 2 lurkers. - being Soma I am absolutely terrible at 2 Hatch Muta and I'd like to learn more about it, since going 3 Hatch Muta all the time makes me really predictable. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
At the same time, on those maps where 3h is hard, 2h is supposed to be easier (Match Point, Blue Storm). | ||
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
On June 22 2020 16:20 Ej_ wrote: As far as I am aware, 2h muta is traditionally done on maps where 3h muta is hard/impossible (4th gas hard to obtain, unlike on 4p maps, esp ones with highround mains, where you can easily take a 3rd gas and then climb down with swarm and lurkers to secure the 4th) At the same time, on those maps where 3h is hard, 2h is supposed to be easier (Match Point, Blue Storm). yea and it's also to avoid split map scenarios in general on 2p maps | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On June 22 2020 16:20 Ej_ wrote: As far as I am aware, 2h muta is traditionally done on maps where 3h muta is hard/impossible (4th gas hard to obtain, unlike on 4p maps, esp ones with highround mains, where you can easily take a 3rd gas and then climb down with swarm and lurkers to secure the 4th) At the same time, on those maps where 3h is hard, 2h is supposed to be easier (Match Point, Blue Storm). Would you please elaborate on why 2h is easier on Blue Storm and Match Point? On June 22 2020 17:30 TT1 wrote: yea and it's also to avoid split map scenarios in general on 2p maps By ending the game more quickly? Does 2p maps make it more predictable as a Terran playing TvZ? I've watched so many games where Z goes muta all in and T makes 20 turrets and crushes Z once vessels are out on maps like HBR. | ||
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Sybris
Canada28 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On June 22 2020 17:43 Sybris wrote: 2 Hatch Muta is almost standard these days even on 4p maps because 3 Hatch Muta is struggling with the 5 rax and 1-1-1 builds. Zero is doing it pretty much every ZvT. I noticed that too, that's why I'm trying to learn 2H, but my winrate plummets from around 50% when going 3H to around 10% when going 2H  | ||
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LML
Germany1762 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
Some maps are even better for 2 hatch when air distances are near or when the natural has abusable terrain like Match Point and Blue Storm. Zergs still go 3 hatch as an econ opening once in awhile to mix it up but 2 hatch is the default opening in the current meta. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 22 2020 17:32 JieXian wrote: Would you please elaborate on why 2h is easier on Blue Storm and Match Point? By ending the game more quickly? Does 2p maps make it more predictable as a Terran playing TvZ? I've watched so many games where Z goes muta all in and T makes 20 turrets and crushes Z once vessels are out on maps like HBR. it's hard to take a third on bluestorm and match point with 3h muta because there are 2 paths leading to the optimal third location instead of one. This makes it hard to defend the third with lurkers (especially on blue storm where you don't even have high ground protecting your third). You will either need many lurkers to defend the third or you will have to preemptively reposition 2-3 of them to defend the ramp/choke that the terran is trying to pass. With 2h muta you can often get a very quick third base and you don't need to worry as much about defending it because terran has a lot less map control against 2h muta (since they are defending against the mutas). By the time terran regains map control against 2h muta, you will have an army that can stall or even beat the terran army as long as the muta harass wasn't too bad. In contrast, if terran is going +1 5 rax against you, you will usually have to put lurkers above a ramp/choke to defend the third because you usually cannot defend by fighting the army head-on. But as I said earlier, it's very inconvenient to do this on the aforementioned maps so players use 2h muta on these maps to circumvent this issue.. To your second last question, I'm not sure if 2h muta games are on average much shorter than 3h muta games but they tend to result in split map less often because terran expands a lot more slowly against 2h muta since they lack the map control needed to take 4 bases quickly like they would if they went +1 5 rac against 3h muta. Lastly, I would say it is less predictable for terran going against 2h muta because zerg has much more liberty over build choice than they do with 3h muta. For example, they can allin on mutas, make hive air army, make hydra guardian, transition into ordinary hive play, mass ultra, mass ultra with defiler, mass lurkers with good upgrades and hydra/ling support. That said it's not a very meaningful difference because you can still generally determine what zerg is doing by scanning their main and looking at their muta numbers. | ||
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.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
If you're struggling with 2 hatch: here are two main ideas. One is to play very low eco and to kill terran with just mutas. You can do this by playing with early pool timings or just making a lot of lings early, or taking an early 3rd and then sacking it to bait marines out while you counter attack. Alternatively, if you want to play a macro game with an early third, you need to drone after your first 5-6 mutas. Make the mutas, then drone to saturate all 3 bases w/ 4th hatch building, then make mutas while teching to lurker/hive. The reason why 2 hatch is so strong is because it puts you on a wider range of dangerous builds, mostly because your speed and lair are that much faster, and specifically with regards to mutas compared to 3 hatch, though you have fewer, they hit at a time where terran is struggling to get their infrastructure up and cannot possibly have marine range finished. You shouldn't think of 2H and 3H as completely different builds; they can be played strategically identically (mutas to secure a 3rd, then tech to lurker/hive, but with faster timings that inhibit terran build selection). That is, unless you're trying to all in with 2H. If you're trying to play macro games with it, you need to learn to drone behind your initial set of mutas. On ladder, this is not a problem because terrans can't assume you're going to play a passive playstyle. If you have practice partners, then you need to learn how to mix in more aggressive approaches to keep them from powering themselves. The TLDR though is that it is not map dependent, 2 hatch is just currently the superior build. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37015 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On June 22 2020 23:19 Seeker wrote: Thread moved to BW Strategy. Oops. Sorry, my mistake. | ||
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Sirris
681 Posts
On June 22 2020 15:39 JieXian wrote: I am wondering makes a map good for 2 Hatch or 3 Hatch Muta, or 2.5 for that matter? Some reasons I can think of for a map being good for 2 Hatch Muta are: - short air distances - open entrances for a third (like Blue Storm) so it's difficult to defend with 2 lurkers. - being Soma I am absolutely terrible at 2 Hatch Muta and I'd like to learn more about it, since going 3 Hatch Muta all the time makes me really predictable. I understand your pain. But the general idea which came from high level players is that 2 hatch muta will allow you to defend your 3rd hatch and an addition gas successfully before terran can move out with a critical mass of mnm. Mainly by reducing the marine count with muta harass on the units themselves. It does take high level muta micro though to dog the initial bio ball and take it out ideally. Regardless of the map. What happened before 2 hatch was popular was terran would get 4-5 rax and a quick +1 and destroy the 3rd before zerg could get lurkers to defend. While now the best zergs can destroy a terran completely with the quick 3rd gas and a huge production of +1 mutas and superb control. While terrans have adapted with quicker vessels or early valks to dominate the large amount of early mutas while the zerg is on low drones still. Do not feel like you have to play like the pros though. As you learn feel free to play what feels good to you. But the current gold standard is to use 2 hatch play to get a very quick 3rd gas and use that to get more mutas and a fast hive into defiler. There are some good ums maps that can help you practice muta micro. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1541 Posts
My problem with 3 hatch muta is a bit what you are feeling now, terran have much better timing against it than 2 hatch build simply because they are facing this bo more often. I played many terran better than me and would 3/0 me whenever I would open 3 hatch, but the moment I would go with a good 2 hatch build that I very well known, it was a complete different game because terran response and timing would be much worse. Of course it wouldn't always be like that but I remembered playing a better terran that understood he was sure to avoid a lose for as long as I don't open 2 hatch, which made him send his scv super early hoping to steal my gas. This was funny, I thought this fucker was smart telling myself "finally one guy gets it  "In 20 years, 2 hatch build produced by far my most memorable games. There are so many varients it's crazy all the things you can do with it. Go for it, it's hard but once you find that little bo that works in most scenario and that you can adapt you will have a lot of fun and if you fail, usually it is much quicker and less frustrating than a standard 3 hatch build. Finally if you find yourself to be too predictive then don't do things that are predictive, like using a build order that is well known on certain map which is the title of this thread, I mean duh...  | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On June 23 2020 17:18 Sirris wrote: I understand your pain. But the general idea which came from high level players is that 2 hatch muta will allow you to defend your 3rd hatch and an addition gas successfully before terran can move out with a critical mass of mnm. Mainly by reducing the marine count with muta harass on the units themselves. It does take high level muta micro though to dog the initial bio ball and take it out ideally. Regardless of the map. What happened before 2 hatch was popular was terran would get 4-5 rax and a quick +1 and destroy the 3rd before zerg could get lurkers to defend. While now the best zergs can destroy a terran completely with the quick 3rd gas and a huge production of +1 mutas and superb control. While terrans have adapted with quicker vessels or early valks to dominate the large amount of early mutas while the zerg is on low drones still. Do not feel like you have to play like the pros though. As you learn feel free to play what feels good to you. But the current gold standard is to use 2 hatch play to get a very quick 3rd gas and use that to get more mutas and a fast hive into defiler. There are some good ums maps that can help you practice muta micro. Thanks for the comments. How quick should the 3rd gas be? Should it be after the initial 6 mutas? It's a broad question but how do you decide when to take a 3rd based on what you have scouted? All I know is if I see slow FE mech play I immediately get more bases since I'll be safe, but I don't know how to adapt based on the variants of bio openings. Yes I do practice on UMS muta micro maps, otherwise thing would have be a lot worse for me and I'd have to open lurkers all the time. I feel that there's a very clear reason to not only have 1 build, especially if 2H is a good build for all the reasons you have mentioned, that's why I want to learn it. On June 24 2020 08:18 iFU.pauline wrote: I used to do a lot of 2 hatch build and I usually prefered it on big maps to avoid hard push mm and a third that was easier to defend until your eco was well running. In fact it was a very defensive gameplay just to secure third gas and force terran to stay on 3 rax. This was an unorthodox way to play 2 hatch muta because usually the point is to be very agressive. My problem with 3 hatch muta is a bit what you are feeling now, terran have much better timing against it than 2 hatch build simply because they are facing this bo more often. I played many terran better than me and would 3/0 me whenever I would open 3 hatch, but the moment I would go with a good 2 hatch build that I very well known, it was a complete different game because terran response and timing would be much worse. Of course it wouldn't always be like that but I remembered playing a better terran that understood he was sure to avoid a lose for as long as I don't open 2 hatch, which made him send his scv super early hoping to steal my gas. This was funny, I thought this fucker was smart telling myself "finally one guy gets it "In 20 years, 2 hatch build produced by far my most memorable games. There are so many varients it's crazy all the things you can do with it. Go for it, it's hard but once you find that little bo that works in most scenario and that you can adapt you will have a lot of fun and if you fail, usually it is much quicker and less frustrating than a standard 3 hatch build. Finally if you find yourself to be too predictive then don't do things that are predictive, like using a build order that is well known on certain map which is the title of this thread, I mean duh... Thanks for the reply Pauline. I am interested in 2H because it appears to be a good, flexible and adaptable build and I need to be good at it, otherwise I only have the option of going 3H and suffer against 1-1-1 openings. I thought that my learning what maps are good for 2H, I would also be able to learn how to use 2H openings better. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
There's isn't much response to the variants of bio play. If whatever the terran is doing is going to hit your nat before your mutas will pop, make sunkens. After that, do as much as you can with the mutas. If the terran move out, surround with lings and muta micro. If you can't keep them in their base or defend the push and so your 3rd or nat is dead, you are dead anyways. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On June 26 2020 21:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote: General preference seem to get the 3rd gas as soon as possible. There's isn't much response to the variants of bio play. If whatever the terran is doing is going to hit your nat before your mutas will pop, make sunkens. After that, do as much as you can with the mutas. If the terran move out, surround with lings and muta micro. If you can't keep them in their base or defend the push and so your 3rd or nat is dead, you are dead anyways. I see, thanks. Thanks everyone for your responses. I have achieved a better understanding of 2H muta play and just won 2 out of my last 3 games in a manner where I know I am playing better and I am practicing muta micro better | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
As a matter of theorycrafting, I can see why 2-hatch is tactically much more superior in terms of giving Zerg more flexibility and map control. Just like what the posters have already said. I see parallels with mirror matches, in both BW and SC2. How a player will go 1-base against a 2-base opponent. Seems like a classic rock-scissor-paper dymanics - rush beats quick expo. But there's some nuance here. The 1-base build is more a timing build that doesn't necessarily kill the opponent outright, but applies enough pressure that allows the player to expo even faster (building a 2nd or 3rd base unharmed). Same here for 2-hatch muta. The idea is not to kill Terran outright, but to delay their own econ and prevent them pushing across the match. So that the Zerg can go 3-base and 4-base safer. If the muta harass can kill the Terran outright, that's a bonus! Last ASL, the Zergs showed some pretty strong 2-hatch muta plays - either to macro up safer, tech quickly to hive-defiler, or even to transition to lurker. Not sure what the best Terran counter is, besides going full bio and turtling with turrets. Flash's funky valkyrie builds show some promise, but seems to depend on micro execution. I guess if you have good enough mechanics, going 2-hatch muta is the way to go for now (unless Terran comes up with some new timing build that can counter it). | ||
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Return
Ivory Coast856 Posts
They generally get gas mining There asap, and pretty soon reach A 2-4 drones on minerals 3 on gas saturation there | ||
KwarK
United States42509 Posts
In 2 hat muta the muta are expected to attack and defend simultaneously. A map is good for that when the pathing and base locations give them opportunities to exploit that. 8Z vs 12T on Sylphid is pretty similar, the Terran main is open from 180 degrees which makes it difficult to cover the gas at one side and the choke at the other. The rax often end up near the wall which makes them vulnerable. Meanwhile the Terran counterattack path is the other side of that same wall so Terran can’t force the muta to choose between attacking and defending. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On June 30 2020 00:15 KwarK wrote: Regarding what makes a map good for it, base layout and natural angle plays a role. If the opponent’s natural is angled towards the Zerg or towards a critical pathway on the map then that is favourable. Likewise if their main is open to attack from a lot of angles that helps a lot. Artosis complained a lot about 6 vs 3 on Horizon because the 6 main was open from muta harass from 180 degrees, was very close by air, and muta could also cover the counterattack path and the drop ship route from the same area. In 2 hat muta the muta are expected to attack and defend simultaneously. A map is good for that when the pathing and base locations give them opportunities to exploit that. 8Z vs 12T on Sylphid is pretty similar, the Terran main is open from 180 degrees which makes it difficult to cover the gas at one side and the choke at the other. The rax often end up near the wall which makes them vulnerable. Meanwhile the Terran counterattack path is the other side of that same wall so Terran can’t force the muta to choose between attacking and defending. Thanks, I recall watching some ASL ZvT games on Horizon where the zerg abused mutas exactly as you had described. I have a followup question now that you have stated what map characteristics 2 hatch muta can exploit, what about 3 hatch muta then? Would 3 hatch muta be preferable if mutas can't harras the opponent efficiently? Do we rely more on getting quicker lurkers on a ramp to defend our later third or something like that? | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
But every game is different. Sometimes you can defend when 3 hatch mutas with just mutas and zerglings, sometimes not. Likewise if you go 2 hatch muta, sometimes you can just kill the terran by going all in and sometimes not. Sometimes you can transition out and sometimes you straight up die when the terran moves out and into your nat. So, yes 3 hatch may be preferable on maps like those, but if you are confident about muta micro and multitasking, there's nothing wrong with going 2 hatch on those maps either. The end goal of securing a third and carrying from there would be the same. | ||
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
Sylphid is a good example as well as there's no ramp leading into a starting location so it's hard to secure. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
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