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[S]ickle
20 Posts
http://bwreplays.com/ozp1v When I GG out of the game, the results screen shows I mined double his econ throughout the game. I went for early hydras and got expos. Late game mech is unbeatable. I just dunno what to do. He even switches to bcs. I feel like I dont have good army control or something. All my units are scattered and cannot do much. I just finished the game a few minutes ago so I cannot type right. | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
Use drops to pick him apart, his armies immobile. Late game hydra/muta shenanigans are just going to melt, so transition into defilier-ling and ultra, just like you would against a mech transition. If he goes into BC's, use plague, switch moderately back into hydras if you need to. If you absolutely must engage a mech army, do it at a time of your choosing when you can flank from as many sides as possible (but as a rule, try not to do that). You didnt utilize these options and just allowed the terran to mass gas/money and upgrades. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On July 19 2017 05:33 [S]ickle wrote: Late game mech is unbeatable. I suspect you're not making enough queens. | ||
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Vuk_91
Serbia1690 Posts
On July 19 2017 05:33 [S]ickle wrote: Here is the replay: http://bwreplays.com/ozp1v When I GG out of the game, the results screen shows I mined double his econ throughout the game. I went for early hydras and got expos. Late game mech is unbeatable. I just dunno what to do. He even switches to bcs. I feel like I dont have good army control or something. All my units are scattered and cannot do much. I just finished the game a few minutes ago so I cannot type right. Ok, I don't have time to look at your replay, but based on what you said, I have to tell you: You won't beat mech with mass hydras. It was a trend few years ago, I used to always do it, and I can tell you, it's shit. You need to go for 4 expos into defiler tech, and you can throw in mutas if you like. Once you get to defilers, you basically go defiler + ultra + shit tone of lings, and just try to attack as many places at once as you can. Also you need to drop on his bases. I know that all these things I've said are super vague, but trust me, you wont beat a decent terran with hydra/ling, or even hyrda/ling/queen (queens very apm demanding for a lower lvl player). Good thing with def + ultra + ling is that it's easy to macro and easy to use, since it's mostly A-move. P.S. The most important thing is not to allow terran to get to 200/200, 3/3 upgrades. Once he get there with 3 or more bases, you won't win a game. | ||
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[S]ickle
20 Posts
On July 19 2017 06:27 Ty2 wrote: Could you post an analysis of your play yourself? It's probably painful to watch a replay where you had a big lead but if you value improving more then I think you should. I'm not at my computer ATM but might follow up later I will try to do an analysis in a bit. On July 19 2017 06:30 Dazed. wrote: Use drops to pick him apart, his armies immobile. Late game hydra/muta shenanigans are just going to melt, so transition into defilier-ling and ultra, just like you would against a mech transition. I should have used drops. Yeah, idk why day9 and the wiki guide says to go with hydra/muta. Hydras maximize the dmg seige tanks do, basically an instant melt against a squad of tanks. Ultra/ling with swarm feels like a better option at this point. I didnt even make an ultralisk cavern as I was trying out the the mentality of this school of advice. On July 19 2017 08:03 Vuk_91 wrote: Ok, I don't have time to look at your replay, but based on what you said, I have to tell you: You won't beat mech with mass hydras. It was a trend few years ago, I used to always do it, and I can tell you, it's shit. You need to go for 4 expos into defiler tech, and you can throw in mutas if you like. Once you get to defilers, you basically go defiler + ultra + shit tone of lings, and just try to attack as many places at once as you can. Also you need to drop on his bases. I know that all these things I've said are super vague, but trust me, you wont beat a decent terran with hydra/ling, or even hyrda/ling/queen (queens very apm demanding for a lower lvl player). Good thing with def + ultra + ling is that it's easy to macro and easy to use, since it's mostly A-move. P.S. The most important thing is not to allow terran to get to 200/200, 3/3 upgrades. Once he get there with 3 or more bases, you won't win a game. I agree I should have used drops. I think I was being lazy or didnt want to bother. I will try ultra/ling/delifer in the future vs mech this hydra/muta is too squishy. So a 200/200 3/3 Zerg with optimal unit composition cannot beat a 200/200 terran with optional unit composition? It sure feels that way. | ||
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[S]ickle
20 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
Yeah, idk why day9 and the wiki guide says to go with hydra/muta. Its good as a mid game unit composition, thats it. | ||
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[S]ickle
20 Posts
On July 20 2017 01:31 Dazed. wrote: Its good as a mid game unit composition, thats it. So what is the ideal late game composition and strategy against tank/goliath? | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On July 20 2017 10:17 [S]ickle wrote: Once hes on like 3 base, go hive into ling defilier, then into ling defilier ultra. Dont really need to mix in lurkers. So what is the ideal late game composition and strategy against tank/goliath? Like a good way to open against mech is something like; 3 hatch muta into 7-8 hatch hydra, stop any push/harass shenanigans hes doing> transition into hive and 4+ base economy. | ||
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[S]ickle
20 Posts
On July 20 2017 11:07 Dazed. wrote: Once hes on like 3 base, go hive into ling defilier, then into ling defilier ultra. Dont really need to mix in lurkers. Like a good way to open against mech is something like; 3 hatch muta into 7-8 hatch hydra, stop any push/harass shenanigans hes doing> transition into hive and 4+ base economy. So basically treat mech similar to +1 speedlot. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On July 20 2017 11:45 [S]ickle wrote: Yeah, haha. Throw a den down as you go lair ofc, runbys/sim city and all that.So basically treat mech similar to +1 speedlot. | ||
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Piste
6183 Posts
You should have killed those manner gasses faster since your extractor was already a bit late. You scouted terran taking his own gas on a strange timing, which is propably why you built such an early sunken. But you could have skipped the sunk easily if you had lings at terran natural. He went for an expansion and bunker so the sunken is not needed. Lings should be poking to keep track on marine count. An unused barracks walling terran expansion indicates that he is not going bio. Lurker tech wasn't the safest bet here but luckily you didn't make too many of them. You proceed to make spire with carapace upgrade and double evolution chambers (without any gas for upgrades) and even overlord speed and hydra upgrades before your third is set up. You're trying to tech too much with no gas to back it up. After you have overlord speed, try scouting terran main. Check factory count, starport count (valks/vessels?), armories, army size and composition. Your fourth was a bit late too. From this point just macro harder and tech to defilers and then ultras. Concentrate on your army positioning. You had them scattered at non stategic places. Position them to be ready to attack when ever terran moves his army. He never had army count that you could have not taken down with pure hydra+ling army. Your engagements just didn't go well. | ||
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[S]ickle
20 Posts
here is the replay: http://bwreplays.com/fsztc Same story, I mined 150% of what he did, took like 4-5 bases before he even got 2. Mech can pump an unstoppable army on just two base. I think the problem is hydralisk. They are shit vs mech. It's my fault I didnt go ultra/ling promptly. | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
Also the next time you have a frusterating loss like this be real with yourself and start with EMOTION>MECHANICS> TACTICS>STRATEGY. that should be a logic check each time and proper identification of where you went wrong will allow you to learn a lot quicker and most importantly, self teach! GL and the more important piece, have fun dude the mistakes are why you should play the game, its the learning process. | ||
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Ryzel
United States552 Posts
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[S]ickle
20 Posts
On July 25 2017 12:52 vileChAnCe wrote: Dude you're mechanics are what you should be focusing on. If you just take the time and learn to do your early build, whatever it is efficiently then the rest of the game starts to make sense. Don't take this as an insult its just the reality of the situation, this game has fundamentals and they are basically universal laws at this point. It's also a lot of fun if you can change your mindset and buckle down. Start slow and commit a lot of things to muscle memory, the very smallest of movements should be done slow and repeated. You are looking for PRECISION and CONSISTENCY. Also the next time you have a frusterating loss like this be real with yourself and start with EMOTION>MECHANICS> TACTICS>STRATEGY. that should be a logic check each time and proper identification of where you went wrong will allow you to learn a lot quicker and most importantly, self teach! GL and the more important piece, have fun dude the mistakes are why you should play the game, its the learning process. what part of the mechanics should I be focusing on? | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
No one can play BW perfectly and this is true past the first like 4 mins. The best will already start to make errors, but that doesnt mean they aren't trying for it. Every decision that has no human opposition can be automated to a point. So set up logical chains X to Y to Z where each one of those is something THAT HAS TO HAPPEN and is something you can practice 400000000000000 times in a row to the point your fingers are like yeah fam i can do this shit in my sleep. boom now whenever that Queue or Time or pattern recognition hits, you just did three things close to perfect nigh instantly. Congrats you just jumped up 2 ranks. The thing about BW is you need like hundreds of these automation's basically your attention is supposed to be calculating which automation to run when. Example, I watched flash play where he wanted to setup a third where he sent his SCV he then had to readjust so he clicked over there but had to cancel his own automated task because a skirmish of higher priority was about to start. Flash was only able to make that decision because setting up the expo was fully automated his ability to discern prioritization was only possible because of that muscle memory. Your inability to do 99% of tasks automatically makes it so you can only run really 1 task at a time, your decision making is of course going to suffer because of that, in a given match the amount of time for you to make ANY real strategical decision is gonna be whatever time you shut down your 1task and just think. Edit: Again no insult and no targeting, this applies to everyone. BroodWar is Professionalism first, you don't get to play this game unless you learn that. Start the game with GLHF and end it with GG and take ownership of every single fault/loss/problem. Look forward to learning/experience and ultimately change your passion. 'E-sports' has twisted a truth, your anger/resentment is never going to get you further than acceptance/openness. Don't give up either, the reward is far greater than anything else! | ||
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