How does TvP work - Page 2
Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
pebble444
Italy2492 Posts
| ||
L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On July 29 2014 22:55 Leon1das1 wrote: So first off thank you. A couple questions though. In terms of the timings, how do I know which one works where and when I do, what do I base it off of; supply or game time.Also is there a way to more accurately place Vulture mines, they seem to go where ever vulture gets clustered to when you tell them to place mines. Usually when I scout his base, I just look for either a 2nd gateway, a nexus or tech, whatever comes first. That's enough to tell me roughly what he's doing, and then I focus on scouting his 3rd base timing. Just make sure your scv gets out alive and park it at his probable 3rd base destination. To some extent, atleast in certain scenarios you have to play a bit blind when it comes to 2 base timing attacks, but ideally you would want to arrive at his base roughly when his 3rd nexus just finishes. A 3rd base is always followed by a fair number of gateways, and you need to hit before the first production cycle of those gateways. So if you examine a replay it's easy to figure out how good your timing was. If you can get in a position where you can siege at his natural nexus, even if he's got a bigger production, he will struggle to break through. Think of it like defending your own base. It's easy, because terran is favored in crowded spaces, especially when sieged down. Once you siege down just outside his base, your main goal is to take down the nexus and defend your position. Once you're confident that his nexus will fall, send away a few units to take down his 3rd (as few as possible). A lot of the time, 1 vulture is enough, because you mainly need to kill the probes. So keep making factories, and when you scout him making his 3rd, that's roughly at latest when you need to be getting vulture upgrades. You get speed first because it's faster, and sometimes you won't have both machine shops ready by that time. 4 Factory should work decently against semi-standard timings, so I would recommend always aiming for that, and having that as your default option if you're unsure. Look at progamer FPV vods to get the basics on how to lay mines. You need to kind of split them up. | ||
puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
Eventually terrans graduate from blind timing pushes and start going for aggressive but non-allin pushes like 3 fact on 2 base, fact cc fact and strong fd. If they aren't doing this they are going fast port or 3rd cc off of 1 fact. While strategically these strategies aren't as vulnerable as blind 4 facts, they still can be pretty easily defeated by a protoss who anticipates this style of play. I think going for the 4 fact followup is fine for now just so you can get an understanding how to conduct a timing push (a crucial skill in the matchup). This strategy will also help you ensure that you are doing your build efficiently from the second you split your scv's. However the skill many low and mid level terrans neglect the most which is so vital to being scary in terran versus protoss is how to win in the late game with a maxed 200/200 2-1 army versus 4-5 base toss with arbiters. The build that taught me how to get to late game safely was simply to follow up my fd/seige expand/ vult fe by adding 1 factory and 1 academy (I would skip an ebay if I saw both a nexus and ranged goons with my scout). Once you scan the protoss gate counts you can decide from there if you want to expand to a third or if you want to go for a timing push. If you go for a third you will of course get an ebay and an armory after making the command center. From here you focus on maxing quickly and harassing the protoss as much as you can as he tries to get a 4th. If you have good skill in the late game versus protoss you will be a much harder opponent to play against as it will prevent them from playing styles that blind counter timing pushes. You will also be significantly more frustrating to fight on ladder as terrans who have confidence going into the late game evenly versus protoss are rare. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On July 30 2014 06:38 puppykiller wrote: I think one of the reasons terrans struggle so hard in tvp is they never learn how to play solid. If you look at what sorts of terran versus zerg builds are recommended, they include a midgame plan. For terran usually people don't recommend a build but instead just an opening. From there new terrans tend to go for blind timing pushes hoping that they will work (my whole first year of starcraft). While these pushes definitely exist within any progamer's repertoire, they aren't really indicative of how to play the match up and are easy to beat if the protoss doesn't play risky. Eventually terrans graduate from blind timing pushes and start going for aggressive but non-allin pushes like 3 fact on 2 base, fact cc fact and strong fd. If they aren't doing this they are going fast port or 3rd cc off of 1 fact. While strategically these strategies aren't as vulnerable as blind 4 facts, they still can be pretty easily defeated by a protoss who anticipates this style of play. I think going for the 4 fact followup is fine for now just so you can get an understanding how to conduct a timing push (a crucial skill in the matchup). This strategy will also help you ensure that you are doing your build efficiently from the second you split your scv's. However the skill many low and mid level terrans neglect the most which is so vital to being scary in terran versus protoss is how to win in the late game with a maxed 200/200 2-1 army versus 4-5 base toss with arbiters. The build that taught me how to get to late game safely was simply to follow up my fd/seige expand/ vult fe by adding 1 factory and 1 academy (I would skip an ebay if I saw both a nexus and ranged goons with my scout). Once you scan the protoss gate counts you can decide from there if you want to expand to a third or if you want to go for a timing push. If you go for a third you will of course get an ebay and an armory after making the command center. From here you focus on maxing quickly and harassing the protoss as much as you can as he tries to get a 4th. If you have good skill in the late game versus protoss you will be a much harder opponent to play against as it will prevent them from playing styles that blind counter timing pushes. You will also be significantly more frustrating to fight on ladder as terrans who have confidence going into the late game evenly versus protoss are rare. its more of a foreigner mindset to be rather aggressive in the early/mid game. I can't recall the last time i seen a foreigner consistently able to play and maintain a pure solid macro style since the days of Idra/maybe Ret. in contrast korean terrans always do safe standard openings, only pulling out some pressure/allin variant once in a while. Playing less risky means while they may have to work harder to get their wins and even lose more matches than they should, they will always be constantly practicing their general macro/mechanics which as a whole is more beneficial as improvement. rather than just doing allins everyday and getting cheap wins which give u a nice win ratio but doesn't improve your skills whatsoever. | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On July 30 2014 06:38 puppykiller wrote: I think one of the reasons terrans struggle so hard in tvp is they never learn how to play solid. If you look at what sorts of terran versus zerg builds are recommended, they include a midgame plan. For terran usually people don't recommend a build but instead just an opening. From there new terrans tend to go for blind timing pushes hoping that they will work (my whole first year of starcraft). While these pushes definitely exist within any progamer's repertoire, they aren't really indicative of how to play the match up and are easy to beat if the protoss doesn't play risky. Eventually terrans graduate from blind timing pushes and start going for aggressive but non-allin pushes like 3 fact on 2 base, fact cc fact and strong fd. If they aren't doing this they are going fast port or 3rd cc off of 1 fact. While strategically these strategies aren't as vulnerable as blind 4 facts, they still can be pretty easily defeated by a protoss who anticipates this style of play. I think going for the 4 fact followup is fine for now just so you can get an understanding how to conduct a timing push (a crucial skill in the matchup). This strategy will also help you ensure that you are doing your build efficiently from the second you split your scv's. However the skill many low and mid level terrans neglect the most which is so vital to being scary in terran versus protoss is how to win in the late game with a maxed 200/200 2-1 army versus 4-5 base toss with arbiters. The build that taught me how to get to late game safely was simply to follow up my fd/seige expand/ vult fe by adding 1 factory and 1 academy (I would skip an ebay if I saw both a nexus and ranged goons with my scout). Once you scan the protoss gate counts you can decide from there if you want to expand to a third or if you want to go for a timing push. If you go for a third you will of course get an ebay and an armory after making the command center. From here you focus on maxing quickly and harassing the protoss as much as you can as he tries to get a 4th. If you have good skill in the late game versus protoss you will be a much harder opponent to play against as it will prevent them from playing styles that blind counter timing pushes. You will also be significantly more frustrating to fight on ladder as terrans who have confidence going into the late game evenly versus protoss are rare. Once I can get through the midgame ill be sure to try this. | ||
LuMiX
China5757 Posts
| ||
mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
Most of the great players started off playing cheesy, in order to learn the game. Do you think this is a good way to learn, and if so, what TvX cheeses would be good to start with? Thanks. | ||
puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
| ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
| ||
ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
On July 30 2014 02:48 pebble444 wrote: TvP is like sex. start off slow and then build up the momentum to when both players are maxed out TvP is like sex; play often but only try when it matters. I don't know what this means. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
However the transition is hard and tend to be less rewarding (fuk arbiters etc.) at the start. Hence most amateur players have little incentive to improve their macro further. | ||
TelecoM
United States10597 Posts
On August 01 2014 06:37 puppykiller wrote: I don't know if most of the good players started off cheesy. This is according to who? Have you ever heard of SlayerS_`BoxeR` ? | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On July 30 2014 02:48 pebble444 wrote: TvP is like sex. start off slow and then build up the momentum to when both players are maxed out Idk if I'm ready for that. | ||
puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
| ||
TelecoM
United States10597 Posts
On August 01 2014 15:08 puppykiller wrote: Yo don't start out cheesy. Most cheesy players I know stay cheesy and never evolve from it. There is no " You don't start out Cheesy" or "Don't start out as a macro player" That is a ridiculous statement that obviously a newschool player would make.....Playing "Cheesy" forces you to adapt and understand all elements of the game, if your cheese fails, you are forced to make this up with speed / better decision making than the opponent....Also how are you going to talk about how levels above C+ / B- are when you have never even hit B- before..... | ||
puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
| ||
evilfatsh1t
Australia8566 Posts
On August 01 2014 11:27 Probemicro wrote: Flash is a notable example for someone who started off cheesy before turning into a macro beast. However the transition is hard and tend to be less rewarding (fuk arbiters etc.) at the start. Hence most amateur players have little incentive to improve their macro further. flash didnt "start cheesy" and then turn into a macro beast. he started as a winner and he stayed a winner. his mechanics have always been good, he just cheesed a lot early because ot won him games. when opponents started to play safe against him he started to 14cc everything and win games. | ||
tmdtmdtmd
9 Posts
On July 30 2014 06:38 puppykiller wrote: I think one of the reasons terrans struggle so hard in tvp is they never learn how to play solid. And you know why? because it takes 10 times more practices to play solid T than to play solid P, ain't nobody got time for that. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On August 01 2014 16:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: flash didnt "start cheesy" and then turn into a macro beast. he started as a winner and he stayed a winner. his mechanics have always been good, he just cheesed a lot early because ot won him games. when opponents started to play safe against him he started to 14cc everything and win games. early on he was strong but his macro was anything but extraordinary, in fact he was dying from predictable 14ccs with his only competent results against top players are from pulling off timings/allins. so my statement is still correct. after that he got much better and started playing his style of macro that plowed through everyone, so much so he hardly need to use cheese anymore to win. he stopped cheesing because he knows his macro is now strong enough to take on literally anybody in lategame. | ||
EndingLife
United States1563 Posts
| ||
| ||