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i've been playing starcraft on and off for a while, but never online.
among one of the parts that's lacking from my game is my micro. especially zealots. When i started, i had no idea there's so much u can do with z's. I focus a bit, run hurt ones around, but it doesn't seem to do very much.
for example, in a small z battle, i find it impossible to get one z ahead. if im facing dual gateway, and i've only got one, i cant stop z's from breaking through in sheer quantity.
but i saw a small clip of someone using 1 gateway tech to fend off a 3 gateway rush. i have no idea how he did it, although i saw it.
so i was wondering if u guys have any tips on how to do it properly
also, it'd be really helpful if u could link me to some good replays of featuring zealots outmicroing bigger armies and the like.
thx a lot. i'm sure there'll be other parts of my game to come.
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In Zealot vs Zealot battles, try to form an arc with your zealots around your opponent's so that even though both players may have around the same number of dudes, more of yours will actually be attacking.
And when fending off greater number of Zealots or any other melee attacker, do the same thing with an arc, and try to be on top of a ramp.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
zealot v zealot battles are an art form
i dont know the mechanics of it, but i can beat my friends all the time with same number of zealots..
start playing lots of micro maps if u wanna get better at it..
as for zealot micro reps... um, theres not very many around, but look for pvp's on requiem @ ygclan- they usually have 2gate builds
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Zealot vs. Zealot battles are just fucking difficult. My record is holding off a 10/12/21 gate with a 10 gate/13Zealot build. Shield batteries/probes. I wish I had that replay :/
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Well there is alot of zealotmicro in tosswars so you could try asiaclan.net if you only want to study the micro. These guys are rather good at it to say the least. Not really 1:1 style but it's alot of zeal vs zeal micro.
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I am at work so I am afraid I cannot link you any replays or anything like that.
However...
The general idea of micro is to use your units to their full potential... for example 4 zealots on a ramp will kill a hell of a lot more lings than four out in the field being flanked horribly... although you don't actually have to DO anything apart from hold position, it is essentially micro or unit control.
A better example of more complex micro would be beating lurkers with marine medic, you must spread your marines out to have a chance, and even then if the lurkers are too numerous it may be necessary to constantly move targeted marines around, or even possibly run away and let the lurkers come forward and re-burrow, rinse and repeat.
Generally in a battle with non committed units (committed unit eg seiged tank, burrowed lurker) you move a unit taking heavy fire (it's going to die) or one with low health to the back of your forces, and allow your full health units to draw fire whilst that damaged unit is still attacking...
With microing your zealots, just run the zeal who is about to die/is taking heavy fire away, then the enemy units will begin attacking a different zeal, then attack move him back into battle.
Keep rotating round your zeals, always running away the ones in danger to the back, then put them back in combat.
If you are hopelessly outnumbered and are going to lose your units, this is a useful way to maximize their use before they are lost.
If you are hopelessly outnumbering him then this is a useful way not to needlessly lose units.
If you both have similar numbers and you are doing this better than he is, you will win.
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Uh, I'd reccomend getting online and playing some games.
Your probably also having build order problems along with micro problems. When facing two gate with one it is standard to lay down another gateway. Travel distance usually makes up the diffrence and you just have to hold zeals on ramp and micro a bit. On the other end if you have many zeals, all your usually going to do to mico in pvp is just spred them out/line them up and attack, not much to it, mabey focus attack once in awhile. I suppose the only stuff i can say i would have problems with is something like 5z vs. 5z on open ground, sometimes stuff works out, sometimes is does'nt, with seemingly no clear reason. But, stuff like that can usualy pretty easily be avoided.
Theres a good ammout of requiem reps in the Bisu[shield] rep pack Taiche and I made: http://repasm.free.fr/files/Bisu[Shield].zip
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Get around your opponent and deal the damage, don't let him surround you. Create area for yourself to deal the most damage. If possible, fall back weak Zealots.
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ok while i'm here, can i get some answers on other parts of my protoss game (pvp mainly)
i saw the pvp games in the replay pack (thx a lot)
in pvp, why is it people choose to go goons? don't z's just rape them after speed upgrade?
i saw one battle where both players had about 6 zs and 4 goons. they pretty much set 3 zs to attack one and let their goons fire randomly. is this the right thing to do?
also, my pvp games somehow never turn into the type of games. my opponent would be furiously teching to reaver drop or smg, so i have to tech very fast to observers to stop that...so it turns into a very low unit kind of battle. maybe i'm playing it wrong - i should mass more goons and tech slower...and somehow handle whatever he techs to...
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BanGL's Hyperwar - Greatest Old UMS EVER.
- Every player (up to 3v3) gets 3 gates and like 2 zealots. It's TvB 9 gate vs 9 gate and you macro zealots and war with them. There is also a zerg version with 3 hatches or so. I wish I still had it.
BanGL's Microwars - Greatest Old MW EVER.
- Before this TMM and TMA nonsense, we used to play 1v1 MW. BanGL's has many zealot vs zealot battles and a lot of common older scenarios. Also, you build as you micro, each scenario you may be given just units or 2-3 production buildings and some units, etc.
Both are heavy Zealot Micro maps. Best way is to practice repeated micro of a subject until you finally notice how they react. Like Pinching, or in GIANT zealot fights, the ever turning pinwheel of zealot death. If you can micro zealots, you know what I mean.
EDIT - To the person above me... I will play you PvP and help you, but from the sound of it, you need to start over from 101. Zealots are nearly totally inferior to goons in every way PvP. Even with speed, you need an overwhelming #
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goons beat zealots with micro when they dont have speed (usually)
reavers will rape zealots
a good way to practice zeal micro is to play team games on asia in brood war ladder
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If you have a ramp, you should be fine 1 gate vs. 2 gate. Just keep pumping out of 1 gate and go DT. If he really wants to go all in, which should be a freewin for you, make a shield battery and bring probes if neccessary.
side note: what does ffs mean?
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United States20661 Posts
As for why no zeals? Reach's rangegoons vs. Rock's zeals for a prime example.
Also, goons are more versatile in PvP anyways.
8882's mappack helps a lot with micro, I think.
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Okay, a rep of you would be very nice. It's hard to comment on your zeal micro without seeing it.
Let me try to talk specifically. I have a friend whose zeal micro is terrible so I will discuss mistakes I see him making. These tips may or may not apply to you.
1.) His biggest problem is that he runs his zeals around too much. Either attack or retreat to a better position, but if you just run around in circles as my friend does, your zeals are taking hits. If you want to fight, then fight, if you're behind, then run a more strategic location.
2.) Speaking of said strategic locations, you really want to use doodads, minerals and choke points (i.e. bridges, ramps, etc.). About doodads: some maps have doodads where you can sit behind them and the opponent can only attack you single file. Actually, rather than point you at a PvP rep to see this, I'll point you to Midas vs Casy on Paranoid. Midas is rushing with rines he makes off his rax and casy brings SCVs to kill them, so Midas runs back to Casy's natural and hides the rines behind a doodad where the SCVs can't surround them. Minerals: some maps have holes in the mineral lines through which you can move behind their mining. Put your zeal in that hole and tell it to hold position. You can only be attacked AT MOST 2 at a time (one mining side, one behind the mining). Choke points should be obvious...if you rest on one side of the choke, his units will have to funnel out to get to you, meanwhile if you have a good arc formation, you have more zeals on your side of the choke than he can fit through it all at once.
3.) When you pull back a zeal, make sure you are sending it back to the attack ASAP. Most people pull it back too far and lose that extra 1 hit that their zeal can do, which can be critical in an evenly matched numbers game.
4.) Make sure the zeal you pull back deserves to be pulled back. Zeals being attacked very heavily (i.e. 2+ enemy zeals on yours) should be pulled back, and any zeal in the red currently under attack should be pulled back. Don't pull back one taking lots of damage if the enemy zeals are going to auto-target a zeal in the red right next to the one you pull back.
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in pvp, why is it people choose to go goons? don't z's just rape them after speed upgrade? Well, speed up takes a while to get and goons are more versatile. Better vs. all 3 starting tech paths. Can fire on scout/sair/shuttle/ob. They are better at attacking reaver, archon, often dt, often ht. Goons are ranged units so they can fire behind several zeals on ramp instead of just waiting their turn to attack. Even though zeals take half dmg from goons, micro well and they are > no speed zeals in equal numbers assuming you have enough space. You just have to watch out for losing probes mostly. After early game you'll see players make more zeals when they go for speed and archive units. Try just going zeals to speed yourself, on normal ramped maps you should get spanked by someone who holds you off early and gos reaver/goon/zeal. On reverse ramp map or no ramp map, more zeals early is more viable, though its more often to see players teching to goon then goin 3gate zeal or speed zeals.
i saw one battle where both players had about 6 zs and 4 goons. they pretty much set 3 zs to attack one and let their goons fire randomly. is this the right thing to do? This is pretty difficult to describe, its all about taking as little damage as possible while dealing the most. Say you have goons and your opponent does not yet. You want to attack his zeals in this case. keep your zeals away if you can afford to so they don't die quickly to more zeals. If both players have small number of goon/z you might see players aiming for the goons with their goons and as much as they can reasonably with their zeals, so that when the opponents goons die they can safely micro to kill the zeals. Range actually makes a pretty big diffrence for micro, 4 vs 6. At times it's useful to pay attention and focus fire, but be careful about chasing after units if they pull back, giving your opponent free hits.
also, my pvp games somehow never turn into the type of games. my opponent would be furiously teching to reaver drop or smg, so i have to tech very fast to observers to stop that...so it turns into a very low unit kind of battle. maybe i'm playing it wrong - i should mass more goons and tech slower...and somehow handle whatever he techs to... well, ob does not exactly counter reaver, more like just having enough goons in the right location. It would be better if you posted some reps so I could comment on those. I also reccomend you read my guide at www.artofprotoss.vze.com. IMO zeal mico is most often about things you can do for slight advantages, rarely very important in the whole scheme of things in PvP.
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Braavos36379 Posts
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Early game it's quite easier to mass zeals than goons, so particularly on smaller maps you see a lot of zeal use early. Midgame, goons become more versatile since with micro they thrash no speed zeals and also they can take out shuttlesand reavers better.
Scout/sair openings aren't really all that viable PvP. I'd ignore them entirely for now. I have a neat opening involving scouts PvP islands, but it's specific to island maps only since on any land map you will get pwned by their zeal/goon army.
Dt rush IMO is absurdly risky PvP. You're basically relying on them not to tech, but since reavers are so important, it's not hard for them to get obs. Also, even in zeal games you will see fast forges for quick upgrades, which also means it's easy for them to make a cannon detector.
Why do people make goons? Even after speed kicks in, your opponent may have reaver tech, meaning that your charging speed zeals will get eaten alive doing minimal damage. Relying on zeals late game can be risky because of this, especially if you're not doing a good job scouting (and if you get citadel before robotics, presumably your probe has died to their goons so you don't know their tech....scouting is especially important in PvP).
Focus fire is almost always better (there are some circumstances where it isn't but I can't describe them without diagrams), but remember that your hands aren't infinitely fast, and dancing your zeals/goons is generally more important so that takes precedent.
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On August 10 2006 11:21 Hot_Bid wrote:
i'd ask bush or the pope
LOL
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in zealot vs zealot battles, barely move the zealot out of battle when hes taking damage ... i always see new players running halfway across the map -_-;;; (not literally) ... and remember that a smart player will simply target the weak zealot again ... so to prevent that, dont micro out the zealot when hes way in the red, maybe when 2 or 3 hits will kill it so that you can move it out of battle again ... be fast though because other zealots will need attention too ;D
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make an arc.
if he starts to form an arc, move the zealots from the weak end of your arc back until you can form the arc again.
try one of the micro maps. they should have it.
like 12 zlots vs 28 lings or something.
the whole point is to make your enemy units clutter up while yours are all attacking.
more surface area = more damage.
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On August 10 2006 11:21 Hot_Bid wrote:
i'd ask bush or the pope
HAHA when I first read this, I didn't get it. But very funny.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 10 2006 13:11 pooper-scooper wrote:HAHA when I first read this, I didn't get it. But very funny.
second'd
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thx a lot for the replies
i will try to post a replay of myself when i can.
've been playing offline vs friends but never online, and i can only get better from learning from people who are better than i am.
i think micro is something that's learnt out of necessity. hopefully if u analyse my replays, u'll pick up many mistakes (caused my lack of experience, not lack of macro/micro - although me losing my base, sending in units to get killed, leaving units behind, etc is common since i'm not very fast), and in the future i'll be playing the type of games where that kind of micro is necessary, and i'll be able to see for myself why/how people micro the way they do, and what i should strive for when i play.
at the moment, i'm fairly clueless. i know basic concepts like teching, map control, economy, etc, but i wish i knew more about this game as a whole
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zealot vs zealot is extremely easy. Just notice which zealots are being attacked by more than one opponent zealot and move him back. Don't let your zealots get surrounded. That's it.
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EPT
