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I often open up with a 10-15 build when playing against terrans so that I can harass early with dragoons in the hopes of delaying an expansion or taking out the machine shop (thus delaying vulture techs) but when my harassment fails, the enemy always moves out with either a large group of vultures and proceeds to kill off my probes and my dragoons with spider mines, making me unable to defend, or they do a drop and accomplish the same thing.
My Question to you is: what is the most effective way to counter vulture harassment as P? I go straight to robo tech as soon as I can (once my second base is established) to get observers. I've tried placing some cannons at my main, but the vultures could easily avoid them and the cannons couldn't kill the vultures before they could lay waste to my entire mineral and gas line.Zealots don't work against vultures (duh) and I can't tech to DTs fast enough (not that it would matter, they get destroyed by mines) and scouts or corsairs won't help much either.
Does the cure to vulture harassment lie within MY harassment, or is there an actualy defense and counter to the terran using vultures in this manner?
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It would be easier if you graced us with a replay of your failed effort...
Rally Dragoons to choke of your natural + narrow it with Pylons = 80% of success.
Good reflexes to target-fire micro against Mines before they dig in = 15%.
Luck is like 5%, cause sometimes you kill the daebak mine 0.0001 s before explosion... And sometimes, it KABOOMs.
Anyway, don't waste money for Cannons when you're still on 1 or 2 bases, Cannons are only viable later, when you have to secure distant bases while your units are fighting for map control and you have excessive minerals.
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seems like you are not choking your natural entrance and rallying your goons to that choke point.
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imo learn a safe build , don't go for rush , and then try to defend a possible vulture harass
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Do both of these:
On December 07 2011 21:52 JMave wrote:
seems like you are not choking your natural entrance and rallying your goons to that choke point.
On December 07 2011 22:05 lastreason wrote:
imo learn a safe build , don't go for rush , and then try to defend a possible vulture harass
Choke up your natural with forges, citadels, pylons, whatever. Also choke up any additional bases you can. And don't be afraid to throw down cannons at these chokes, although you should never need cannons at your natural because your army should be there. If your army isn't there, what comes out of the gateways while you are fighting should be able to deal with a few vultures, that's all you should have to deal with if you are moving out to kill him. Learn a nice strong fast exapand build. You need to have MORE bases than the Terran. You can still early pressure with a quick zealot or dragoon.
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You want to basically make a narrow choke at your natural, which means a pylon wall where a dragoon can easily fit and block incoming vultures.
You also want observers, always, and learn to position them properly. I can't tell you how many times Protosses can just shut down harass by just knowing where the vultures are going and move his units there. So having observers outside his natural and keeping track of WHICH direction they move will give you a great hint as to where he is going.
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Like others said, your choke is the key to defending. Use pylons to narrow it down so you can take your natural. Going for 2 gates ranged dragoons with observer is pretty much the best counter. Remember to keep a couple dragoons near your main mineral line in case of drops. Once you set up a 3rd (or if he is super-aggro) you can place cannons around your mineral lines.
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I'd say more observers and getting speedupgrade when you got your natural/third up and running. Two goons lost to mines is 150 minerals more expensive than speedupgrade for observers, which lets you roam more freely on the map as you don't have to be so cautious. Knowing when and where the vultures will come is key. Narrowing chokepoints is also good as stated a dozen times here already. If you ever see GoD stream, check out the number of observers he makes in PvT. Maphack!
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As mentioned, a partial wall at your natural and full pylon walls at your 3rd, 4th and 5th bases can be great.
After your 2gate pressure, set up a contain on his natural outside of tank range. Even just 3 goons is enough to scout vultures coming onto the map so you can start preparing to defend it (by blocking choke or if things get bad, running probes away) and 6+ goons can often times kill half of them as they run by. Make sure they are spread out to get vision of any ground paths his vults could take. Keep your rally points from your gates at your own choke though, as people above mentioned. Just make sure to keep an eye on them so that the Terran doesn't creep out a few tanks and snipe your contain.
Although it isn't worth it on 2base, 3+ base Protoss can easily build 2-3 cannons in vulnerable mineral lines of bases that can't be walled off, or if you suspect the Terran is going for drops. At higher levels this investment isn't always a good idea, but at least where I'm at (C-), the peace of mind that it brings is well worth it.
In the mid-game, once you have obs with speed, form up 1 or 2 mine sweeping squads of 5+ goons and an obs and just have them constantly roaming the map, clearing mines. This keeps your army safe but more importantly denies vision to the T. Make sure to send one of these squads ahead any time you transfer probes long distances!
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On December 07 2011 22:29 Zergneedsfood wrote:
You want to basically make a narrow choke at your natural, which means a pylon wall where a dragoon can easily fit and block incoming vultures.
You also want observers, always, and learn to position them properly. I can't tell you how many times Protosses can just shut down harass by just knowing where the vultures are going and move his units there. So having observers outside his natural and keeping track of WHICH direction they move will give you a great hint as to where he is going.
I want to reiterate this. Observer usage is one of the most important things in PvT and many, many Protoss players (including myself) struggle with it. To play at a high level it's mandatory to have good knowledge of the map with Observers.
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On December 08 2011 09:49 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 22:29 Zergneedsfood wrote:
You want to basically make a narrow choke at your natural, which means a pylon wall where a dragoon can easily fit and block incoming vultures.
You also want observers, always, and learn to position them properly. I can't tell you how many times Protosses can just shut down harass by just knowing where the vultures are going and move his units there. So having observers outside his natural and keeping track of WHICH direction they move will give you a great hint as to where he is going. I want to reiterate this. Observer usage is one of the most important things in PvT and many, many Protoss players (including myself) struggle with it. To play at a high level it's mandatory to have good knowledge of the map with Observers.
It's even better when your observers have speed. The KHAN Protosses always seem to make it a priority.
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Keep your observers in key locations to spot vultures and actually move your units around the map when you can't break his natural so you can track the vulture path and use dragoon to shoot on them.
Seriously, always spread your dragoons in the map until the midgame metal ball push in which it requires you to have the maximum force to pick off unit.
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You just have your goons where they are supposed to be during each phase of the game. Watch some reps to learn this. And just run your probes to the next base when the vultures arrive, as the terran chases with vultures the goons will kill them. If he is a noob he wont be macroing while he harasses and you'll be at an advantage.
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United States10097 Posts
I like to go for a really safe build in 2 gate -> nexus -> robo and using my first 4 goons to pressure and having one goon at their projected 3rd base to kill SCV.
Sim city is really good. Make a wall of pylons with either a 2 hex space (one pylon) or a 1 hex space to allow goons and other larger units to get through. then put one goon at that opening and hold position. have other goons behind the pylon wall.
At 1-2 bases, cannons are not needed as you have only 1 choke to defend. however, you can't split your army up when you take a third or terran might catch you out of position, so thats when you wall the ramp or w.e. and put cannons behind it.
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EPT
