Recent game between Hiya and Soulkey kind of gave me new food for thought.
I mean... Recent games where terrans went 2 port wraith, they've basically won. And I feel like that it was done it the same arrogant manner that zergs once started to use muta harass. Really, how wraith is worse than a muta? No way. Range = more, speed = equal, strength = more in air, although less in ground. Plus can cloak. Plus zerg has overlords and terran hasn't (their "overlords" are built on ground, have many more HP and can be repaired :D )
So, I wonder, what they've done wrong (zergs i mean)?
I probably guess what. First of all. I think they lose A LOT more from losing drones that if they just made 1, even 2 spores at each base and sent all wraiths to hell. Secondly - what for make mutas? Muta harass was made primarily to contain terran, and to reduce the meaning and strength of tanks. But well... 2 port wraith is a 1-base build. o.o And no terran from 1 base will have resources to build some number of tanks that would be able to do anything against 2 base zerg, while producing wraiths too.
Even if, seeing spores, he switches to non-wraith units, you'll STILL be in better position than you were if you simply lost these drones. Losing drone, you don't lose just 125 minerals. You lose infinite number of minerals that he mines to you during the game.
Remember times , when terrans tried to defend mutaharass with pure marines and turreting up was considered lame and unprofessional? And what we now have? Turret defence, LOL - remember for example flash vs modesty. And it's considered normal. The problem is that 2 port wraith tvz is not as common as Mutalisk harass in ZvT. So basically "standard counter" doesn't exist.
So what if just make 2 spores at each base as standard response (or at least 1 at each if T is not actually MASSING wraith), and fill mineral line with 3-4 hydras each, all this done before muta? If T doing wraiths you pretty much can do this, as his ground force is very weak - you instead need no sunkens (that cost the same, and its suddenly normal to make 4 sunkens), and instead of sunkens when M&M push is about to come, you just make lurks. Then you go to mutalisk tech and continue with standard game.
Mutalisk response seems weak to me - given equal micro, terran has an advantage. If you drones get killed in ZvZ you can either do a zergling runby into opponeent's base, or go mutas to his base and kill his drones too.
In TvZ it all doesn't work. Zerglings blocked by wall, and if you go to kill T's scvs... There are always more of them than of your drones early in the game, you know. And terran has at least 5 (FIVE!) production facilities of units. You have 2 or 3. -___- So if your drones get picked, you have a LOT more problems than terran losing his scvs. Given the fact that you've got an extra base, you'd better exploit that by defeding them... -_-
As this is not ZvZ, the measures to counter "muta" harass must be different i think...
And I think a Liquipedia article is kind of needed (called the same as topic)... But I generally don't know how to write it (I did "3 Hatch Before Pool (vs. Terran)" one, but that was easy, because it's only an opening build)
On November 20 2010 06:18 _Quasar_ wrote: And I think a Liquipedia article is kind of needed (called the same as topic)... But I generally don't know how to write it (I did "3 Hatch Before Pool (vs. Terran)" one, but that was easy, because it's only an opening build)
* The Zerg will usually build a Hydra Den and spend resources on Hydra Tech. They would also get Overlord Speed as well. Do not be put off by the Hydras as good Micro can still do sufficient damage. * Hydras at the minerals will be protecting both the Drones and the Overlords. * Mutas are also made to try to gain air dominance so that the Zerg can obtain map control. If the Wraiths are left unharmed they can stop the Zerg from expanding and the game will become easier for the Terran. * Zerg can use Ensnare to slow the Wraiths down, this also negates the Cloak so they are easier to kill. * The Zerg can also respond with Lurkers as the Starport tech will delay your Academy and Engineering bay timing however this means that they have less Mutas so with good Micro you should be able to cripple the Zerg more. * Burrow can also be researched so that when Wraiths try to harass the Drones will burrow for safety. * The Zerg may build spore colonies to assist hydras or mutalisks in defending drones, especially if a counter attack is desired.
hydras or mutas work either way, however hydras are kind of weak to a 1 port wraith, as a 1 base all in bio switch could put you in serious trouble if your decision making isnt the best.
u wont have a really hard time with mutalisks and scourge, as I doubt anyone you play would be able to micro wraiths as efficient against air like fantasy. Scouting is essential, try to learn to indicate if it's 1 port or 2 port
On November 20 2010 06:42 koreasilver wrote: Ugh, if you wrote that 3hatch before pool article then it's all wrong.
I'll fix it in two weeks if no one else does.
lol agreed... just read it. >_<
anyways, mutas are used to get air dominance. alot of people go mutas because it's very hard to fend off the common follow up of a wraith/mnm army.
mutas also create the threat of your own harass, so the terran will have to get turrets. money spent on turrets will make that mnm wraith ball weaker. and it will keep the terran in his base longer
if you have no air dominance, it's very easy to get lurks picked off when you have a lurker ling army.
now i say lurker ling because it'll be tough to go hydralurk. can't make mass hydras off 2base when your eco isn't amazing and you dont have enough gas for lurks.
I agree that mutas should be made - but I say that hydras and spores (!) should be made at first, and that it is way more economic than just losing 4 drones instead of making of them 4 spores (in case of loss, you lose infinite number of minerals, and, moreover, you make these spores in fact instead of sunkens that are agreed to be economically normal). I've seen no games where zerg doesn't lose drones to wraiths >_<
So basically your muta timing shouldn't suffer too much. And lurkers should be made to make a first small group of m+m not kill you i think... because.
Anyway you'll be making mutas faster than he - making wraiths, because he was 1 base and you - 2 base... So you'll be able to catch up - that was my logic...
Seriously, I remember that game and Action played it very well. Hiya's mm push would have been stopped because Action makes the very good decision of morphing a handful of lurkers.
* The Zerg may build spore colonies to assist hydras or mutalisks in defending drones, especially if a counter attack is desired.
That's also something that I think has gone underused. I think there are definitely some timing windows for countering but it's going to be really challenging if you get caught with no OLs and cloaked wraiths.
I'm not too big of a fan of mutas but I'm still kind of iffy on them. I think Action's hydra play works better and it's less micro intensive than trying to micro against wraiths, especially when they're cloaked and you need to be very good about your OL positioning.
2 port wraith seems like something that gets easier with lots of practice against it. If you can practice against someone who does it to you over and over you won't feel as pressured during the harass and it'll make the game go much more smoothly. You'll know where to put your hydras and OLs, when it's coming, from where, etc.
I think that if it became more popular to go 2 port wraith (which is actually happening, cause Pathfinder favors this build) - then zerg would adapt to it just like Terran have adapted muta harass.
I think mutas have still to be used with this build (but after spore-hydra-lurk)... although there is a possibility to go without mutas if you actually use queens - to stop m&m from stimpacking and wraiths from cloaking and running away from your hydras
I know that something envolving queen always gets a wtf in strategic forums, but... seriously, how is it more difficult than for example making storms, or dark swarm? o.o Lol.
I remember when I first ran into the 2 port wraith... I scouted properly and everything so I had hydras comin out on time, but my control was so horrible it didn't even matter ;_;
BTW could anyone tell where I was exactly wrong in the article about 3 hatch before pool vs terran?
IIRC it wasn't really known as something normal until JD began to use it... and most attention was drawn certainly when it was on Odd-Eye, because of the "oh shi-" ending of that game.
Then, about scouting - I tested it myself, 9 scout is required and is enough.
Well, the other things I may be mistaken caus' i'm not a pro...
On November 20 2010 05:32 _Quasar_ wrote: So, I wonder, what they've done wrong (zergs i mean)?
I probably guess what. First of all. I think they lose A LOT more from losing drones that if they just made 1, even 2 spores at each base and sent all wraiths to hell. Secondly - what for make mutas? Muta harass was made primarily to contain terran, and to reduce the meaning and strength of tanks. But well... 2 port wraith is a 1-base build. o.o And no terran from 1 base will have resources to build some number of tanks that would be able to do anything against 2 base zerg, while producing wraiths too.
It depends on the player, but generally in proleague games, the players stick to what they do best, and always stick to their game plan. If they've practiced Mutalisk micro for weeks to prepare for a proleague match, then they certainly aren't going to deviate from their intention to make Mutalisks. Imagine if Soulkey went Spore Colonies and then moved out with Hydralisks, and then lost... his coach would ask him why the hell he didn't do what he had done in ALL his practice games.
I should also say that Mutalisks can be strong against 1-base Terran, because the Terran absolutely will want to move out with his/her Marines/Medics, and the Zerg player can just place Sunken Colonies at his/her front and counterattack the Terran base with Mutalisks. For a proleague-level Zerg, this also especially important, because they want to have air superiority in every match-up.
But why no 9 scout? As it's a very economic build, it must be dangerous against something... What if terran just went 2 barracks before expo? He will steam roll you. -__- And if even not - you need to have the info at last, what to defend against -___- So I don't understand this.
no pool 3hatch was used all the time in ZvT on Katrina. The build has seen varying levels of use over time and it is as standard as double cc in ZvT and its mentality is also comparable to double nexus in PvT. You are extremely misunderstanding no pool 3hatch. It is no different from a standard 3hatch opening like 12hatch 11pool 13hatch except for its opening timings. The very fact that you're trying to make it seem like its an that can be differentiated from other 3hatch builds shows that you're not really understanding it. Its still the same 3hatch build except greedier. It would be like trying to understand 14cc differently from standard 1rax fe when in the real actuality of it they are seriously the same builds except with a slightly different opening. After the opening it plays out exactly the same. In the case of no pool 3hatch the differences would be a slight later timing of when you get lair tech out but a faster 3rd, more drones, and the ability to make more lings faster because of the higher mineral income.
When put up against Terran openings no pool 3hatch is not a counter to double cc. Double cc is actually economically ahead compared to no pool 3hatch. No pool 3hatch is much more comparable to 1rax fe cc before rine in economy and stronger than 1rax fe cc after rine(s). No pool 3hatch is completely safe against 1rax fe. If you lose drones to a marine sting from 1rax fe then you're just a goddamned idiot because if you just make 2-4 lings when the pool finishes the marine shouldn't be able to do anything. That's really all there is to it. There are no timings here.
Even if you 9scout sometimes you aren't going to be able to find the Terran in time for you to decide to either make a pool first or hatch first. From my experiences you can sometimes scout and then put a pool down even if its late such as 13 or 14 but if the Terran is doing some very aggressive opening then the pool is still going to be rather late. You're trying to make it seem as if no pool 3hatch is a reactive build when it is not a reactive build at all. You go into the game completely prepared to open a certain way or not. No pool 3hatch isn't a build, it's an opening and openings are decided before the game even starts most of the time or is thought of in the first minute or two. I'm just going to point this misunderstanding on what is most likely your misconstruction of thought in thinking that no pool 3hatch is a build of its own rather than an opening variation.
As for the topic of this thread itself your entire argument that one should get hydras before mutas is a really redundant and unnecessary argument because it has already been done for a long time now. Putting a hydra den for 2-4 hydras in the midst of a 2hatch or 3hatch muta build is standard procedure against mech. You can sometimes skip the hydra den if you think the Terran isn't doing a wraith oriented mech build but it's just prudent to get a few hydras for vulture runbys even if speedvult runbys aren't popular anymore. The reason why soulkey got wrecked by hiya in that game is because soulkey got greedy and didn't get hydras and he was also probably not expecting hiya to use a wraith build since wraith builds have really fallen out of usage except for a very few players after the whole 2port wraith trend and fascination waned. This situation isn't the standard of what happens but it was just a bad oversight by the Zerg. Whenever someone says 2/3hatch muta against mech it is assumed that they are talking about the 2/3hatch variation for mech where you would at least get the den by the time you put down the spire for 2hatch and after you start lair for 3hatch.
I think the issue with the double cc vs no pool 3hatch is with the macro mechanics of Terran and Zerg. Because it stands that the second hatchery at the nat and the second cc at the nat go down at really similar times. The Zerg can pump drones hard and surpass the Terran economically for a short period in the beginning and later be able to produce a much greater supply of lings but the real important units for Zerg in the midgame are the gas units in mutas and lurks as the midgame phase is where zerglings are the least powerful. Unless you're using a standard crazy zerg build the large mass of lings you are able to create doesn't really compare to the ungodly amount of marines that will stream out of the macro of double cc. Going no pool 3hatch doesn't give you more gas going into the midgame and you do take your third quicker but getting the third gas operational takes a bit of time. So the advantage you gain going into the midgame is better for the Terran than it is for Zerg because the only thing all those drones really do for you is a faster third and more lings and in the midgame marines are rather more cost effective than lings.
I don't remember exactly but I believe Day9 was commentating a game where the Zerg went 3H before pool and said that the drone advantage from the earlier hatch wasn't really worth the risk of losing to any form of early pressure. I think he said there's only a 2-3 larva advantage anyways.
On November 21 2010 06:42 _Quasar_ wrote: But why no 9 scout? As it's a very economic build, it must be dangerous against something... What if terran just went 2 barracks before expo? He will steam roll you. -__- And if even not - you need to have the info at last, what to defend against -___- So I don't understand this.
because 9 scout isn't economic. if you're doing 3hatch before pool and scout 2rax before expo, there is nothing you can do even with that scouting information. your pool isn't going to be any faster. with a regular scout, you will still be able to see what the terran is doing in time to produce lings from all larvae and get a sunk down if needed.
you will get the info, just not super early. whats the use of info if you cant do anything about it?
I actually agree with what _Quasar_ is trying to say but only on 2 player maps. When Matchpoint came out with other 2 player maps such as Odd eye, a lot of zergs were experimenting with a viable 3 hatch no pool with a 9 scout. I don't know who exactly started it but I remember the Oz zergs, Killer and Jaedong doing it a lot. They would use the 9 scout to see if terran was going 1 rax cc or 14 cc. I think the 9 drone scout is worth it compared to blindly going 3 hatch no pool. I think most zergs go 9 drone scout anyways on 2 player maps like Destination. I think you should never blindly go 3 hatch no pool. I think the problem with a 3 hatch no pool besides the auto lose to any rax first builds is that if the terran goes 2 rax and makes rines he can just go rine+scv all in to kill your hatch and quickly adding an acad. 1 rax scv+rine isn't as scary though unless the zerg mismicros. I remember after Flash tried it on Jaedong in their game on Zodiac he never used a 1 rax scv rine attack against 3 hatch no pool after.
EPT
