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hello i am wondering what the worst possible cheeses ppl could do vs zerg and whats the most money/long term benefits a zerg could get vs them (and which build order to do it). answer to anyh of these would be great. to summarize what is seeken:
-best tvz cheese -best zerg b/o against it (most benefit and still win vs the cheese)
-best pvz cheese -best zerg b/o against it (most benefit and still win vs the cheese)
-best zvz cheese -best zerg b/o against it (most benefit and still win vs the cheese)
be creative and share ur knowledge. you will be rewarded with eternal paradise after death. debate is also welcome.
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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
How about a sunken rush in ZvZ? I think it's pretty damn easy to counter, but it's sorta humiliating (or funny - depending on which end of the 'strategy' you're at) if one loses to it.
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The safest build to use in each matchup is 12 pool then Hatch. But it doesn't let you open up like going for economy does.
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MURICA15980 Posts
On April 11 2004 22:54 mrmin123 wrote: How about a sunken rush in ZvZ? I think it's pretty damn easy to counter, but it's sorta humiliating (or funny - depending on which end of the 'strategy' you're at) if one loses to it. 3 Hatch with offensive sunk is hard to defend against if their micro is really good.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
9pool is the safest zerg build
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Norway10161 Posts
9 pool is the only safe zerg build. (map dependant etc).
Just go like lord - pool - drones till 11 (if p) and 12 (if t), and build 2nd hatch right before pool pops. About the same as 12 pool, and 12 can be rushed -_-
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i think 9 lord 9 pool is the safest vs rush/cheese build order, its like a 9pool but it sets you up for a greater economy
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I will try to answer the first third of your question.
I think the strongest cheese for terran is proxy BBS and attack with most scvs and marines. It dies to 9 pool but of course most zergs go 12 hatch exp on LT. The terran would make scvs and at 9 or so send out two to the middle to build 2 barracks(es?). When those are done, the 2 scvs scout 2 bases and when 2-4 marines are out, they join with 8 scvs or so and attack.
When that thing happens you can't save your expansion, don't even try. You know the terran has even worse economy than you and since you must have scouted him and see no rax in his base, you know it's 'do-or-die'. So the best idea would be to start building lings as soon as fishy stuff starts happening and sunk your main. With lings, sunks, drones, you should be able to fight it off. Remember, don't throw your forces at the opponent if you can see that you'll lose. Stall, move around him stay back for as long as possible. He is in your territory so you'll get more reinforcements than he.
Attack when you feel ready. After you handle his force, you should be able to seal the game. It's all about control pretty much. To avoid getting caught with your pants down by this, always scout with 9th drone.
Against bunker rush, I suggest you send out a drone or two to your expo when it's like 1/2-2/3 done so you would kill an scv building the bunker if it is started in front of you.
If you consider dropship cheeese, get speedlings if you're going muta, to stop drop. Put the lings under the dropship, the terran won't be able to unload or will perish if he (s)he does. If you go lurks, you should have em by drop time or your build order is flawed.
good luck
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ZvP - 9 pool. ZvT - 9 pool. I find the best thing to do with 9 pool is do extractor cancel for 10th drone, mine, make 3 ling sets and then make 2nd hatch(Should be able to make it right about the time lings hatch). Then go for couple lings or drones depending on situation and either 3hat or get gas. Gas can be used to trick a T if you are at 12 and they think you will 3 hat. ZvZ - 9Hatch/9pool... This is sort of like hyper 3hatch in spirit. If your opponent went for 12gas/11 or 12 pool like alot of Z's do as a safe build you can possibly use 1-2 drones making sunkens on their creep and win the game right away(Might not even have to make the sunkens). Those are about the cheesiest things you can do.
ZvT and ZvZ you could also do 6-7 pool, but it's more of a suicide thing if you are not really lucky and I think vs a decent Protoss, most have good enough Zealot/Probe control to fag early lings with probe damage and you probably won't do much more than annoy them a bit.
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ZvT: fast expo ZvP: 3 hatch, speed lings
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well if you and your opponent both micro good, the 6/7 pool really comes down to how lazy/uninformed their build order was, and positions of course. i see lots of ppl who would probably never stop a 6/7 pool in a billion years trying to do the strat that should stop it. they think they have to do ridiculously dumb builds to stop it, and if you get them to do that, then you win anyways, of course. fuck 'em.
what im really trying to figure out here tho, is, say you think your opponent might cheese (whatever the worst cheese is). what's the way to set up the best chance of winning in the case that he cheeses? i.e., if you're zerg, probably, how do you get the most money but still be fine vs their cheese? is it 10/9 hatch, pool, lord.. or is it 9 pool? or is it.. 10/9 pool? 9 lord 9 pool. etc. whats the most money you can get that you think is still safe to (specified "cheese")? thats the kind of thing i'm wondering. i know a 9 pool is good, but is there any more money you could get, depending on which race they are, which position you are, etc.?
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Valhalla18444 Posts
The safest zvp build i've ever used:
12pool/11hatch. You'll have lings to stop zeal rush, and you dont suffer economically from running on 1 base for a bit
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On April 14 2004 21:18 Rt-S.FakeSteve wrote: The safest zvp build i've ever used: 12pool/11hatch. You'll have lings to stop zeal rush, and you dont suffer economically from running on 1 base for a bit
if ur opponent knows what he is doing (and positions are not too far away) he might hurt you badly
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Lol 12 pool 11 hatch, id rather 4pool
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On April 14 2004 21:11 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: what im really trying to figure out here tho, is, say you think your opponent might cheese (whatever the worst cheese is). what's the way to set up the best chance of winning in the case that he cheeses?
ZvT - Vs proxy BBS, 9Hatch/9Pool before ovie I guess. 9 pool too. I consider that just about the worst cheese in the game, so this would be my answer.
ZvP - vs 9/10 gate proxy I guess(Probably the worst cheese a P can pull without requiring lots of luck or a setup that the Z user could stop, like fast cannons). Probably 9 pool, as if they proxy you can sunken your main and eventually take out the proxy gates to hinder them and force them back into their base.
ZvZ - 12 pool will give you best econ while giving you the ability to throw down a sunken quickly to stop cheese.
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Norway10161 Posts
On April 14 2004 21:11 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: what im really trying to figure out here tho, is, say you think your opponent might cheese (whatever the worst cheese is). what's the way to set up the best chance of winning in the case that he cheeses? i.e., if you're zerg, probably, how do you get the most money but still be fine vs their cheese? is it 10/9 hatch, pool, lord.. or is it 9 pool? or is it.. 10/9 pool? 9 lord 9 pool. etc. whats the most money you can get that you think is still safe to (specified "cheese")? thats the kind of thing i'm wondering. i know a 9 pool is good, but is there any more money you could get, depending on which race they are, which position you are, etc.?
12:3 zvp you can 9 hatch 8 pool and throw down a sunken to power a bit more.
You can be super greedy with 12 exp vs terran and stop their bunker rush with mass drones instead of lings. Not good vs 999 tho.
Sunken in mineral line is always strong t.t
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i like 12 pool 12 hatch a lot. U can call it safe. prolly not safest but yea...
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Norway10161 Posts
On April 16 2004 04:05 Surv[CIA] wrote: i like 12 pool 12 hatch a lot. U can call it safe. prolly not safest but yea...
I've been bunker rushed and lost exp with this build also, but still safer than 12 exp -_-
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