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United States2096 Posts
I won't even bother uploading the replay for this game, because there's really nothing to watch. I always use the overpool no gas expo build in ZvP now, but I still have so much trouble with it when I need to adjust to playing vs one base with it. On 4 player maps there is no way to 100% determine if the P is going 1base if you get unlucky with the scouting ovies. It used to be kind of obvious if the probe scout was insanely late, but most Ps will send an early scout these days even if they go 1base. If I miss on the first ovie scout there's no time for my lings to go check both the other nats, and in the game I just played, by the time my lings got to his nat I saw he was 2gating, and proceeded to get raped.
I guess the obvious solution is to drone scout, but I hate doing that because it puts you behind vs the more common forge fe. Even jaedong ran into this problem a few weeks ago when he placed his 3rd hatch in movies nat because he didn't scout past the nat of Movie's base.
So what's the safest way to account for this? I'd hate to go back to 9pool speed opening, because even C level protosses have good enough sim city to stuff runbys and ling all ins these days. 12hatch with a drone scout is also safer against this, but 12hatching has its own laundry list of problems in ZvP. I understand that progamers can play it a bit safer, since 1base is so rare these days, but I still run into a ton of 1base ZvP on iccup.
So, should I just forget about the overpool no gas build all together on 4 player maps and go back to something like overpool speed or 9pool no speed, or should I just take the economic hit and drone scout.
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Nothing wrong with drone scouting
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United States2096 Posts
On December 15 2009 13:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Nothing wrong with drone scouting
I never see drone scouts used with this build when I see it used in progames or on ret's stream. If I suspect anything I'll normally drone scout at the same time I place my hatch, but I was hoping there was some trick people used to figure it out without the drone scout.
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Honestly i just scout with my 10th drone. Does it hurt eco yes, but on the other hand i don't want to lose the game with a stupid play, by placing my hatch at a third base with him only on one. Sorry six, it's the only way to do it. You can of course not play on 4 player maps and avoid this problem all together lol
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United States2096 Posts
On December 15 2009 13:20 Misrah wrote:
Honestly i just scout with my 10th drone. Does it hurt eco yes, but on the other hand i don't want to lose the game with a stupid play, by placing my hatch at a third base with him only on one. Sorry six, it's the only way to do it. You can of course not play on 4 player maps and avoid this problem all together lol
But fighting spirit is the only good new map 
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Collo? Outsider? or Gaia?
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why not 12 hatch and drone scout? if it's a 4 player map the chance of proxy is almost non-existent, and 12 hatch fares a lot better against 2 gate than overpool does
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Those are all motw are they not? but for new maps yes your right. : (
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United States2096 Posts
On December 15 2009 13:24 lazz wrote:
why not 12 hatch and drone scout? if it's a 4 player map the chance of proxy is almost non-existent, and 12 hatch fares a lot better against 2 gate than overpool does
It's not just my troubles dealing with 1base, if I know it's coming I'm decent enough at fighting it with overpool expo, it's just that I need to know what to do with my next 2-3 larvae to properly deal with 1base or fe.
I'm not sure what you mean by proxy's being non existant on 4player maps, those are the only time I ever run into them. And I mostly don't like to 12hatch because of all the problems you can run into with the scouting probe blocking your hatch, along with other stuff like cannon rushes behind your minerals, and just how greedy P can get when they FE vs 12hatch.
Right now I'm trying to get used to a trick I saw ret use on fighting spirit where he sent his first overlord directly toward the middle of the map and stopped it when it was a bit outside of his bridge, so he could see which direction the scouting probe came from. Hopefully that helps a bit.
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On December 15 2009 13:20 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 13:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Nothing wrong with drone scouting I never see drone scouts used with this build when I see it used in progames or on ret's stream. If I suspect anything I'll normally drone scout at the same time I place my hatch, but I was hoping there was some trick people used to figure it out without the drone scout.
You basically answered your own question. If you want to risk not drone scouting on 4 player maps and have a possibility of being insta-owned and have a better eco, then do that. If you want to be safe with a slightly worse eco, then drone scout. There is no trick, unless you maphack.
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Pretty sure almost all of the answers so far have been answered by people lower rank than you sixghost.
(edit: not that I am higher, but..)
As for what I think, ya it can be a pain, but I still think overpool is best. What I do is:
-send first ovie to one corner
-send second ovie to another corner
-cross-scout with lings
If you feel like something is fishy then just send one of your first lings straight to cross scout, and let the other ling chase the probe. Tends to work for me and I have been overpooling for a while now.
Know what you mean though, sometimes just get unlucky and gotta cancel the third hatch or w/e and get all messed up.
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take the economic hit and drone scout. It's a necessary evil against P on 4-player maps.
scouting with 10th drone should let you know what he's up to before your pool finishes, so you can decide what to do with your 3 larvae.
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I normally 12 hatch so here's how fighting spirit works out for me. I scout towards the close nat with my first ovi. I drone scout when I place my hatch at 12. I'm able to scout two positions with my drone and scout one with my ovi before I need to place my third hatch. If I have an extra 50 minerals from sending out my drone a little late, I make my third hatch at 14 instead of 13.
I suppose that doesn't really answer your question about overpool. However, I don't feel economically behind when drone scouting with 12 hatch. You might as well take the economic hit for better scouting information. If the protoss fast expanded, your drone can scout unhindered inside his base for a long time. You don't need to sac an ovi later and there are no surprises.
On December 15 2009 13:14 sixghost wrote:Even jaedong ran into this problem a few weeks ago when he placed his 3rd hatch in movies nat because he didn't scout past the nat of Movie's base.
Want to link me to it in TLPD? I watched their only recent game and that wasn't it.
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United States11393 Posts
On December 15 2009 14:26 Durak wrote:I normally 12 hatch so here's how fighting spirit works out for me. I scout towards the close nat with my first ovi. I drone scout when I place my hatch at 12. I'm able to scout two positions with my drone and scout one with my ovi before I need to place my third hatch. If I have an extra 50 minerals from sending out my drone a little late, I make my third hatch at 14 instead of 13. I suppose that doesn't really answer your question about overpool. However, I don't feel economically behind when drone scouting with 12 hatch. You might as well take the economic hit for better scouting information. If the protoss fast expanded, your drone can scout unhindered inside his base for a long time. You don't need to sac an ovi later and there are no surprises. Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 13:14 sixghost wrote:Even jaedong ran into this problem a few weeks ago when he placed his 3rd hatch in movies nat because he didn't scout past the nat of Movie's base. Want to link me to it in TLPD? I watched their only recent game and that wasn't it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/34410_Jaedong_vs_Pusan
Ret also said something about this in his courage vid on Moon Glaive where he was encountering same problem.
At the very least. overlord should be sent through middle to check for proxy gates.
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Hm, this is really a problem that has been bothering me much aswell lately. I think I have an okay way of dealing with it, goes as follows:
Send ovie to bridge, see if probe comes. If probe comes first try, go overpool, and you now know where he is. If the drones doesn't scout first try, go 12h and 12 drone scout. So far, these timings have worked great for me. 12h is imo a more comfortable build on 4 maps, because you can acually find out what he's doing before taking third, but it's retarded doing it blindly since the probe shinanigans can be horrible.
Edit: Oh lol, just realized your question was on general 4 player maps, well. Maps differ alot, so don't think there's a general solution really, try to work something like I wrote above out for each map I guess.
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United States2096 Posts
On December 15 2009 22:06 Papvin wrote:
Hm, this is really a problem that has been bothering me much aswell lately. I think I have an okay way of dealing with it, goes as follows:
Send ovie to bridge, see if probe comes. If probe comes first try, go overpool, and you now know where he is. If the drones doesn't scout first try, go 12h and 12 drone scout. So far, these timings have worked great for me. 12h is imo a more comfortable build on 4 maps, because you can acually find out what he's doing before taking third, but it's retarded doing it blindly since the probe shinanigans can be horrible.
Edit: Oh lol, just realized your question was on general 4 player maps, well. Maps differ alot, so don't think there's a general solution really, try to work something like I wrote above out for each map I guess.
This actually is exactly what I was looking for. I'll have to figure out the timing for a pylon scout scouting me on the first try, but this is perfect. I think this could actually work on python too, if you just send your first overlord outside your nat to check the probes direction.
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Hmm.. are you asking how to guess he is on 1 base without ever scouting him? Yeah, you answered yourself. It's kind of impossible, especially since his scout timing is meaningless on 4 player maps. And overlord movement is map dependant. Not every map is laid out like python you know.
Always drone scout. You will be losing all your games vs 2 gates and stuff because you don't know what to do with the larvae coming after your first 6 lings. And those larvae are always used in accordance to what he is doing. I assume that you simply make 4-6 lings and go all drones from there on account of -your assumption- that he is getting a fast expansion.
Then, if you knew how to play precisely against 1 base protosses, just like jaedong or ret. Then not scouting that fast is a luxury that you can permit yourself. And 1 base play gets less and less frequent as you climb up the ranks because good zergs have been playing against it since the dawn of time. You however, have no experience against one base play and need a much wider berth to think, analyse and react to your opponents actions. Also, there's the possibility that you're not taking into account a lot of factors. You see, 'oh he went overpool and never scouted, and his handle is called ret so I'm just gonna blindly imitate him'. But then, maybe he is playing on a 2 player map, maybe he knows his opponent much better than you do, maybe the map is just horrible for 1 base play.
Now, what is the reason of you playing overpool? You say that 12 hatch has its disadvantages, sure, but on which situations? You speak of overpool speed as if it was some sort of all-in opening, which is completely wrong. So you have to think, do my reasons for playing overpool still apply on this particular map?
And scouting with your drone doesn't hurt your econ as much as you think. You have 9 drones mining (besides the scout), that's every mineral patch accounted for. The addition of another drone has a rather small marginal gain. And well, with new players it's all about cutting corners to get the highest possible income for like the first 2 minutes of the game, thinking that those 16 extra minerals will somehow echo into 10000 minerals some 20 minutes later. But your own build has its limitations, and the main one is knowing what to do with the larvae past the first 6 lings. Ret and jaedong are much more experienced and know their opponents better. If they end up against a 1 base protoss, they may be in the same disadvantage as yourself but then, they know much better how to play against it. Or maybe they'll lose, and everyone will call it a fluke. Because that is exactly what it is. Against you however, 1 base is more standard play.
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I don't encounter too many problems on 4 player maps when dealing with 2-gate or 1base tech buils since 9/10 times my hatchery is down in time to place a sunken and use my 6 initial lings to hold the first zealots for long enough. On maps like python it may be a bit toguher since the spawns are closer but on Fighting spirit I don't think it would be very smart for a P to go two gate since its a long walk to the opponent and they can easily defend their choke with walls and sunkens.
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United States2096 Posts
On December 15 2009 23:34 Cloud wrote:
Hmm.. are you asking how to guess he is on 1 base without ever scouting him? Yeah, you answered yourself. It's kind of impossible, especially since his scout timing is meaningless on 4 player maps. And overlord movement is map dependant. Not every map is laid out like python you know.
Always drone scout. You will be losing all your games vs 2 gates and stuff because you don't know what to do with the larvae coming after your first 6 lings. And those larvae are always used in accordance to what he is doing. I assume that you simply make 4-6 lings and go all drones from there on account of -your assumption- that he is getting a fast expansion.
Then, if you knew how to play precisely against 1 base protosses, just like jaedong or ret. Then not scouting that fast is a luxury that you can permit yourself. And 1 base play gets less and less frequent as you climb up the ranks because good zergs have been playing against it since the dawn of time. You however, have no experience against one base play and need a much wider berth to think, analyse and react to your opponents actions. Also, there's the possibility that you're not taking into account a lot of factors. You see, 'oh he went overpool and never scouted, and his handle is called ret so I'm just gonna blindly imitate him'. But then, maybe he is playing on a 2 player map, maybe he knows his opponent much better than you do, maybe the map is just horrible for 1 base play.
Now, what is the reason of you playing overpool? You say that 12 hatch has its disadvantages, sure, but on which situations? You speak of overpool speed as if it was some sort of all-in opening, which is completely wrong. So you have to think, do my reasons for playing overpool still apply on this particular map?
And scouting with your drone doesn't hurt your econ as much as you think. You have 9 drones mining (besides the scout), that's every mineral patch accounted for. The addition of another drone has a rather small marginal gain. And well, with new players it's all about cutting corners to get the highest possible income for like the first 2 minutes of the game, thinking that those 16 extra minerals will somehow echo into 10000 minerals some 20 minutes later. But your own build has its limitations, and the main one is knowing what to do with the larvae past the first 6 lings. Ret and jaedong are much more experienced and know their opponents better. If they end up against a 1 base protoss, they may be in the same disadvantage as yourself but then, they know much better how to play against it. Or maybe they'll lose, and everyone will call it a fluke. Because that is exactly what it is. Against you however, 1 base is more standard play.
I guess that was the question I ended up asking, but what I was really trying to figure out is if there is any way to more consistantly scout 1base before my 3rd hatchery gets placed without a drone scout. The reason I use the overpool build so much is because I think it leaves you in the best economic position relative to the protoss. I think 9pool, speed or no, can leave you behind too easily if P has good simcity in their nat, or good probe micro, and with 12hatch I hate how P can go 13nex ->gate -> forge pretty safely. After which I always feel like I'm behind in tech pretty quickly.
I've watched a bit of higher level ZvP on fighting spirit and I never really noticed a huge difference in the zerg's opening from other current maps, so I just thought they knew something I didn't. I guess I'll just drone scout.
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I think the past 4-5 games I've played on Colosseum and Fighting Spirit have been against 1 base tosses. After I lost a couple to the 2 gate, I just started drone scouting after my pool.. Its just not worth being caught off guard.
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Scout with the 9th drone on big maps. Knowing what to do is better than saving a little amount of minerals.
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straight up losing a game because you didn't drone scout would be much worse than playing a game with a slight economical disadvantage because you did, i believe.
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On December 15 2009 13:24 lazz wrote:
why not 12 hatch and drone scout? if it's a 4 player map the chance of proxy is almost non-existent, and 12 hatch fares a lot better against 2 gate than overpool does
because protoss can go core before canon if he scouts you first and the first corsair does so much damage
and I would tweak my build a bit to get your first gas way faster like right after your second hatch goes down. 2 hatch spire into 5 hatch play works as well and that should give you enough time to figure out what protoss is doing. your saturation isn't as strong but you lose 0 overlords to the first corsair and protoss in fear builds canons like a retard. its just a variation and you end up in basically the same place with the quick gas you can get a hydra den vs 1 gate play and the third hatch is not too far behind. the tricky part is to figure out what kind of 1 base play protoss is doing if you are cross position and both your overlords go the wrong way.
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You said you need to know what to do with your drones after the pool pops, which I think is just straight wrong. Just build 12 zerglings every game, he'll have to compensate with cannons or die, you'll be equal or ahead. Remember you're playing zerg here, just do an aggressive build order and attack, it's not that hard.
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United States2096 Posts
On December 16 2009 23:34 Adeny wrote:
You said you need to know what to do with your drones after the pool pops, which I think is just straight wrong. Just build 12 zerglings every game, he'll have to compensate with cannons or die, you'll be equal or ahead. Remember you're playing zerg here, just do an aggressive build order and attack, it's not that hard.
12 lings with no speed can be pretty easily scouted and stopped with 2 cannons and some probes blocking. Also that is shitty vs 1gate tech too.
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On December 17 2009 00:19 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2009 23:34 Adeny wrote:
You said you need to know what to do with your drones after the pool pops, which I think is just straight wrong. Just build 12 zerglings every game, he'll have to compensate with cannons or die, you'll be equal or ahead. Remember you're playing zerg here, just do an aggressive build order and attack, it's not that hard. 12 lings with no speed can be pretty easily scouted and stopped with 2 cannons and some probes blocking. Also that is shitty vs 1gate tech too.
DRONE drill!! then it dont matter what is blocking the ramp and p goes "gg no re" cuz they lose.
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On December 17 2009 03:27 BeastofManjura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2009 00:19 sixghost wrote:On December 16 2009 23:34 Adeny wrote:
You said you need to know what to do with your drones after the pool pops, which I think is just straight wrong. Just build 12 zerglings every game, he'll have to compensate with cannons or die, you'll be equal or ahead. Remember you're playing zerg here, just do an aggressive build order and attack, it's not that hard. 12 lings with no speed can be pretty easily scouted and stopped with 2 cannons and some probes blocking. Also that is shitty vs 1gate tech too. DRONE drill!! then it dont matter what is blocking the ramp and p goes "gg no re" cuz they lose.
lol?
drone drill does nothing against cannons + probe block. And who said anything about ramp-blocking
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United States11393 Posts
On December 17 2009 03:27 BeastofManjura wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2009 00:19 sixghost wrote:On December 16 2009 23:34 Adeny wrote:
You said you need to know what to do with your drones after the pool pops, which I think is just straight wrong. Just build 12 zerglings every game, he'll have to compensate with cannons or die, you'll be equal or ahead. Remember you're playing zerg here, just do an aggressive build order and attack, it's not that hard. 12 lings with no speed can be pretty easily scouted and stopped with 2 cannons and some probes blocking. Also that is shitty vs 1gate tech too. DRONE drill!! then it dont matter what is blocking the ramp and p goes "gg no re" cuz they lose.
It's not even guaranteed that an Ovie will be able to see the minerals on a 4p map.
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sixghost i don't know why you think getting a drone out will "put you behind" and you'd rather lose to 2 gate than scouting with a drone.
Also you need to save the larvas after the initial 6 lings or however many you decide to build until you see what toss is doing, you can't not scout and proceed to use every larva for drones.
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always drone scout, that's just it. Drone scout is critical in both ZvP and ZvT, because P/T can go for completely different response needed openings (ZvP: fe,1 gate,2 gate) or (ZvT:early gas, no early gas). If you don't know which way they chosed in time (ZvP, before pool finishes), (ZvT: like 10 sec after 2nd hatch finishes), you are risking to lose right there.
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On December 15 2009 13:14 sixghost wrote:
Even jaedong ran into this problem a few weeks ago when he placed his 3rd hatch in movies nat because he didn't scout past the nat of Movie's base.
VOD please?
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Take third like normal. If you spot 1base play cancel it and play off 2 hatches with the normal 3hatch gas timing. It's not optimal by any means but that's what you need to do, getting a third hatch later.
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On December 17 2009 08:36 Blind wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2009 13:14 sixghost wrote:
Even jaedong ran into this problem a few weeks ago when he placed his 3rd hatch in movies nat because he didn't scout past the nat of Movie's base. VOD please?
This was Pusan. Search Jaedong Pusan on YouTube
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Pros do a lot of risky things because they are confident that they can get away with it. You can't.
In the Jaedong example you gave, Jaedong actually sent his first ovie to the right direction, but he didn't even bother to check the main cuz he was so confident that P will FE, he changed his ovie direction as soon as he saw the nat was empty, that's the reason he didn't see the 1 base. At your level, you just can't get away with that kind of risky play.
You gotta realize that even pro zergs cannot copy what Jaedong does, I say you shouldn't try too hard to do what he does.
If you don't like to drone scout, you can send first ovie to 1 close base, send 1 ling to the other close base, and the rest of your lings diagonal. You are not gonna get an attack out of overpool anyway, it's a defensive build.
If you can't survive a 2 gate, that's a skill issue, it has little to do with scouting. P cannot push with his first 3 zealots if you overpool, if he pushes you just run ur lings around into his base and kill probes, with good micro, you can do more damage to justify even a cancel on ur nat hatch. Therefore P will wait for at least 5 zealots and he has to leave 2 on the ramp, so you are really dealing with 3 zealots and 1 probe, which is not that hard... If P waits for 7 zealots so he can push with 5, your hatch should complete and you can make sunkens by then. Fighting spirit is too huge a map for 2 gate to really be effective.
You can always place 3rd in base if you are not sure, honestly it's not a big deal to expand with 4th hatch...
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EPT
