|
On December 03 2009 10:16 eXigent. wrote:
My biggest problem when playing TvP is when they arbiter rush, and recall into my main as im moving out to seige my 3rd. You try to bring back your troops and stop it, but any decent protoss will just statis your first couple units when they are about to go through that tiny entrance at the natural. You can use SCVS to try and dislodge the statis, but alot of times it doesn't work out well b/c the choke is just soo small.
Yeah, when toss goes arbiter rush that usually is the first objective for them. But, terran should be aware of that, too, so you should be able to defend it without too much trouble. After all, it's not that hard to take your third on that map (you can leave a few units in your main). Even if toss somehow breaks through your D to kill your third, their units are going to be trapped and be easy to clean up. In the end, toss doesn't even gain anything from the exchange, so you should be able to focus more on protecting your main.
|
whats his icc lol? i want to search him
|
On December 03 2009 08:15 avaTar[ wrote:
BTW... Recommended TvP BOs in this map?
Flash Build?
ask skyroo1004, he has a really good build where he walls-in at the nat with e-bay and academy followed by a 5 fact timing push.
|
someone mentioned flanking and stuff. try doing that, since it is a huge factor in how HBR is pvt imba.
if u already are doing that, then i dont really know how to advise u further lol.
|
The biggest protoss advantage over terran in hbr is the early game, as in cheese.
If it gets to midgame (as you should have noticed, it rarely does), there's no stopping the terran.
|
i'm not sure how you are supposed to execute a good flank vs a slow, leap-frogging terran who researched mines and built scanners. if they know how to place tanks towards the middle i don't think flanking a giant terran ball is really viable.
end it early and try to avoid it.
like this: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=25603
(d rank with terrible execution)
|
On December 03 2009 12:36 yarkO wrote:
(d rank with terrible execution)
That could be why you don't see how to execute a flank properly.
|
could be  maybe i'm just not practiced enough with it on HBR, or my timings are off. either way, it's better (and easier) to end the game early on that map than to let the terran establish a good tank line because all your flanks are coming through tight chokes or a wall of depots/turrets.
(again assuming the terran actually knows how to push properly.)
|
I wonder what implications the larger center will have for TvP, easier to push through the center... or even more places to flank?
|
I find HBR kind of hard TvP lol. If you play long term management you can win just with an intelligent expansion pattern. Watch the Flash and Light reps TvP. You can build a ton of turrets and mine up your main, with no fear of being broken, and just slowly push out to take your other 2 bases. But Protoss should really try aggressive openings I feel, gas rush builds into double expo is pretty strong, or proxy gate or double nexus.
In terms of beating that management style...get an obs behind their nat and in front to see if they're building a CC off of only 2-3 factories. If they are you can 3 base fast arb pretty safely, and then put a 4th down at their 5th base (the one above your main at the left spawning position). This is pretty hard for Terran to deal with, especially if you get that many arbiters early.
But I dunno man, T generally wont lose if they get 3 base with good upgrades, they can just blob across and manage the map, and every game will just turn into P throwing the map in recalls and frontal attacks to try and break their 4th/5th.
Watch Flash vs Shuttle in the GOM league or Light vs Violet to get an idea of how hard it is to beat a solid management Terran who just defends.
You really shouldn't be losing to Terran if you have 5 and they only have 3 base though...Maybe a macro problem. Can't watch the replay right now sorry.
So yeah, if you're having trouble HBR, just start doing aggressive, but not all in openings, and you can probably get an advantage against someone of a similiar skill level.
|
On HBR it is hard to expand beyond 3. base. Plus there's like 50534854785389 ways that P can counterattack from that it isn't even funny. Plus awesome wall-in place asking to 10/15 or cannon rush it. It definitely is one of most annoying maps for T, not only TvP but TvZ as well (that's why you see some weird openings here)
|
On December 03 2009 22:46 Kaniol wrote:
On HBR it is hard to expand beyond 3. base. Plus there's like 50534854785389 ways that P can counterattack from that it isn't even funny. Plus awesome wall-in place asking to 10/15 or cannon rush it. It definitely is one of most annoying maps for T, not only TvP but TvZ as well (that's why you see some weird openings here)
It's perfectly safe and manageable to wall on HBR, I do it all the time. Also, with a clever supply/mine/turret/few tanks wall to cut off one of the "lanes" you pretty much only got one lane that needs covering, which means you really only need to cover ONE ridge to get your 4th and 5th up.
However with the new HBR design this wont be so easy anymore.
Anyway, something that Day[9] said earlier really jumps out here, if you cant find a moment where you can say oh, this clearly cost me alot, or maybe several that you realize pile up to a loss, it's usually a macro problem/supply problem.
|
On December 03 2009 08:02 machinehead.. wrote:This map baffles me; I look at the iccup stats and it appears to be the most P favored map in pvt, but when I play pvt on this it feels like the hardest pvt map ever. So, I decided to play some tvp on it, and playing as T on it, it felt even more like the easiest tvp map ever made. I'm at a lost on what strategies to use on this map in PVT. You can't play for late game versus a decent Terran on this map, as at the very least they will be able to hold their third, and that's all it really seems they need. It's so easy for Terran to split the map, and the middle expo is theirs for the taking when it comes time for it. So not only does Terran end up with more resources, but you can't have 1 cost efficient attack as protoss because you have to keep attacking mass tanks up hills... Attacking entrenched tanks up a hill and not being able to flank if they do decide to move out... What can you do? Play super aggressive and hope the Terran is bad enough to succumb to it? The only thing that seems relatively viable considering the terran is decent is some kinda gas steal into fast carrier play. My last pvt game on the map: http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=25595I feel like I'm out playing everyone I'm playing but when you are forced into attacks that are not cost effective over and over again, it's going to take it's toll. Am I supposed to carrier switch at the perfect time every game and time my upgrades on them so I don't get owned by 3-3... Jut seems like such an unfair burden. Any horrible Terran can keep a third and make units.... ugh. I haven't gotten the chance to watch many pro games on this, so if any of you know of a strategy that defeated a good terran, please direct me to it. Thanks...
it's hard for a reason... its made to trump the players so that they have to think, and not mindlessly make new expansions. it needs to be planned. so yeah, ok siege tanks can demolish a toss player, but isnt that a problem all toss players have? Terran timed push is one of the hardest to counter. lol ... not trying to put u down here, but try being at least a B- player before commenting on how hard maps are. otherwise i'd sugggest you play them instead because it will help you understand the game and think more off strategy rather than mindless macro and failing.
|
What kinda person mindlessly assumes someone isn't b- level? Lot's of irony there, but 0 substance. I mean, I even had one of my iccup reps in there; at least one of my accounts was close to B+... That's such a garbage post. I don't mindlessly play maps, but there is a feeling out process where you play a standardish way that usually works on every map, and then you start adapting.
I haven't played a map where you have to attack tanks up a hill or you have to attack them straight on. It's not anything like the dynamics on another map I've played. So your attacking siege tanks comment is just ridiculous. Usually the goal is to always wait for a favorable time to attack siege tanks, but that isn't always a luxury on this map.
If you knew more about strategy than me, you probably would have answers to my questions, rather than useless drivel.
|
On December 04 2009 01:16 Catch]22 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2009 22:46 Kaniol wrote:
On HBR it is hard to expand beyond 3. base. Plus there's like 50534854785389 ways that P can counterattack from that it isn't even funny. Plus awesome wall-in place asking to 10/15 or cannon rush it. It definitely is one of most annoying maps for T, not only TvP but TvZ as well (that's why you see some weird openings here) It's perfectly safe and manageable to wall on HBR, I do it all the time. Also, with a clever supply/mine/turret/few tanks wall to cut off one of the "lanes" you pretty much only got one lane that needs covering, which means you really only need to cover ONE ridge to get your 4th and 5th up. However with the new HBR design this wont be so easy anymore. Anyway, something that Day[9] said earlier really jumps out here, if you cant find a moment where you can say oh, this clearly cost me alot, or maybe several that you realize pile up to a loss, it's usually a macro problem/supply problem.
I heard that Day9 comment and I don't think that really applies to many people: sure, most people could improve considerably on their macro and that would solve a lot, but one of the biggest differences is simply being able to discern your mistakes -- we all make them -- but we don't all notice them, or else we would hopefully keep getting better instead of peaking.
Macro with protoss is pretty easy, so I'd like to think the focus should be on strategy and execution for most players. You can always improve on every facet, but macro should be one of your stronger points.
|
The biggest problem with HBR for Terrans lies in the extreme diversity of openings possible for protoss in PvT. There are so many issues in play TvP it's very difficult.
Nearly every possible opening PvT is legit on HBR, Proxy gates, inside the main proxy gates, jump gate (pylon on cliff gate in main) 10/15 gate goon range, cannon rush vs terran wallin, 12nex is very strong due to long rush distances, 2base arb and double expanding builds are all SO STRONG on hbr. Proxy robo, elevator plays and even backdoor mining/dt sneaks are possible. Literally every possible way to f up a terran is viable on HBR.
A mid/late game usually favors the Terran but recalls are strong because arbs have a decent amount of mobility, a 3 base terran will be spread almost the entire height of the map so options for attack are totally wide open.
Unlike a map like colo2 where a 3 base terran only covers a small surface area HBR has a widddde surface area so its crazy hard defending everywhere against well timed recall. Timing pushes aren't good on HBR because of two factors the constant ridges you have to move up and the ease of flanking around the path where your units aren't. Protoss is always more mobile than terran and many times I see the terran force on one side moving towards the protoss main while protoss counters hard into the terran.
|
As somebody else already mentioned the key is to use every possible path for flank, even "airway" paths like arbiters or shuttles.
That's why fast arbiter is a good choiche, you want the terran army to be always on the move, and also the hidden expansion in the opposite part of the map gives the terran another path to spread his units at, you don't mind having to lose that expansion eventually as long as for example you counterattack in another spot and break through.
Your target is to keep terran with low popultation, if you don't accomplish this, once terran is well covered by turrets and managed to take all his side of the map there's next to nothing you can do....
Also micro and army control is very important when it comes to flanking, because you have to find the best spot based on how tanks are sieged, and sometimes you have to run under the fire of sieged tanks ignoring them to go for another path
|
fe
2gate robo
4gate arbiter tech
take 3rd
8gate
expo expo
recalls are really strong on this map, while attacking by ground isnt, this map is pretty much like destination
oh and for tvp flash build with 2fac or flash build with 3fac the replays are even released on this website i think flashvsbest2 is good example
if u cant find u can always check the pro vods of macro gamers like flash, most pro terrans r playing like him nowadays
|
Good points. I was worried about having to baby sit the expo on their side of the map with a shuttle, or if they ended up killing it through natural progression (wasn't quite sure if it would be worth it or not); ie., they have their third and they can easily move tanks to that area without creating a big vulnerability in any one area. I do enjoy fast arbiters (who doesn't!), so I could see myself recalling those probes to a new expansion when it came time for it to die, which would make me feel a lot better about it.
About wanting to keep the terran population low, don't we all share that dream! Versus good, turtle style terrans, it's hard to accomplish that when they never present a winnable battle for you. I'm interested in what people think is the "ideal" time to switch to carriers. I do think arbiters are fantastic early-mid game, but after that, they become very hard to use on HBR.
No offense to Kwark, but if he can get A- through cheese tactics on this map, I must say I'm more intrigued by how those games play out. I think there is merit to what is being said on what to do on this map, but it's not exactly easy stuff to execute, so if cheese is very effective, I may be looking for the cop out
|
The korean community acknowledges the fact that HBR is currently a P > T map, and with the release of the new NEOHBR they have made it alot more terran friendly. Now, a terran doesn't have to push to the low ground, and is fully capable of taking the middle expansion, and pushing from there. I made a diagram in the other thread but no one really addressed it, so I will post it here, and ask if it's a viable game plan.
This is assuming you start at the 9 position
The red dots are where ur push initially starts. The green arrow is the direction of your push .The purple dots are where your tanks will end up. The blue lines are depots/turrets which block those small chokes on 1 side. Finally the black x's are the expos you take along the way.
If the toss takes the top bases then depot block the bottom entrances and seige push across his top ramp instead of the bottom ramp.
I forgot to add that you can obviously make a depot wall on the left side allowing 1 path.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7008/hbr1.jpg)
