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+ Show Spoiler +Weee this is the first time even LOOKING at the Strategy forum in over a year probably.
I was mulling over stuff to do for my birthday cast ... I wanted to do something sorta neat to celebrate my birthday by streaming something, and I figured that a good thing to do would be a PvT tutorial, so I'm wondering if anybody would be interested in this?
Well, the reason being is that I feel really strong about my PvT. I'm not claiming to be some sort of guru, but I'd say my PvT is probably B- level or so, I'm able to beat terrans at C+ fairly easily, so I thought I'd sort of share my thoughts on the matchup, maybe go through some replays or something, work through some builds that I do.
Here are some thoughts:
Evolution of PvT.
Back in the Summer of 2008 I was very active and practicing a lot (usually my main gaming season is summer, and throughout the rest of the year I just admin stuff), and I got really good at PvT. Probably the highlight of my gaming career, if you can call it that, aside from almost qualifying for WCG USA in 2005 was being able to take both AeriALs and SchiSm to some pretty close series (lost 1-2 both times) in the Canada LAN I hosted. They're both really good Terrans who have gotten as high as A- on ICCUP, so I felt really good being able to beat them both in really straight up play, without doing any kind of cheese.
Fast forward to 2009, I started playing some again and I realized I was losing almost ALL my PvT's... I was confused as hell because 6 months prior my PvT had been really awesome. Apparently Terran style had shifted in that period where I was pretty inactive.
What worked before....
Back in 2008 in my experience, camping was insanely popular. Terran's would basically sit until 200/200 on 3 bases and make a monster push out with 2-1 or 2-0 tanks and vultures, with some goliaths mixed in. What I used to do was take my natural after my first dragoon in almost every PvT, then take a second expand after my 4-5th dragoon, followed by a 4th after heading up to 5 gates on 3 bases. Basically, it was purely a macro game, where I would try to mass expand (taking advantage of the fact that I knew Terrans would be playing really passive until the late game).
The thought process behind this is that you have so much money by the time they push out that even if you lose your army you can rebuild it and simply wear them down. Arbiters of course were really key, because good vessel timing and control wasn't as big in 2008 - so usually when the push came, I'd have 1-2 arbiters (sometimes 3) with stasis ready to rampage their force as they pushed out.
Why isn't that as effective?
For some reason when I started playing again I found that this strategy of expanding really fast wasn't as effective. Terrans were playing quite a bit more aggressively - 2 factory builds became much more popular, along with FD rushes, etc. Terrans also really love doing this sort of quick 100-110 push that is really tough to beat if you double expand on low troop count (unless you have really awesome micro).
As such, I was getting rolled hardcore in most of my PvT's because I was expecting Terrans to camp when they were playing really aggressively.
How I learned
Really aside from noticing that when I was getting owned by Terrans at C-, watching White-Ra's PvT helped me quite a bit. He plays a style in PvT that I try to emulate. In most of the PvT's I've seen him play he opens with 2 gate obs and then double expands after getting about 7 dragoons.
Why is that effective? a) It stops 2 factory rushes, FD's, pretty much every Terran rush. This ensures that I'm not getting killed in the really early stages. Also it counters drop play (which has become a bit more popular). b) It allows you to pressure the Terran player, possibly delaying their expansion, or even outright killing them in the early game if they aren't careful. c) It is very versatile because you can follow that up with a bulldog, reaver, or instead of double expanding you can go for a really fast arbiter tech, etc. d) Your pressure also allows you to delay the oft-times inevitable 100 push from Terran until you have a sufficient force + speed zealots to stop the push.
My mindset
I'll go through these games I played vs NeVeR at the recent D.C LAN (I REALLY wish I emailed the reps to myself), because I feel as if it really confirmed my understanding of the matchup very well.
My ultimate goal in PvT is to get to a late game situation where, a) I have 5 bases or more, b) a maxed army with some arbiter, c) enough money for a carrier switch if needed, d) contained the Terran to 2 or 3 bases.
My build opens (as I said before) almost always with 2 gate because I never want to die early, and I follow with double expand. If the Terran 1 fac expands, the build works without a hitch and I'm also able to delay their expansion for about 1-2 minutes with early goon pressure. This helps because otherwise their expansion will be ready before yours (since you are getting 5-7 goons before your first nexus), but in this case your nexus will be finished right about when theirs lands, and shortly after your 3rd nexus will finish.
As my third nexus is finishing I'm looking to go a bit minimal on probe production and get up to 5 gateways fairly quickly and rush to get zealot leg speed. I know that most Terrans are either: a) looking for the quick 100-110 timing push, or b) will rush to take and turtle up an early 3rd base. Quickly going up to 5 gates while cutting probes allows me to: a) stop a potential 100 rush and b) deny them a 3rd base.
At this point I'm waiting to see what the Terran does, if I see them try to move out and attack me, I move with my force to stop it while taking a 4th base. If I see them trying to take a 3rd, I take my 4th and work towards a 5th. I know if they're taking a 3rd base the goal is to turtle until maxed, so I know I can take 5 bases safely.
So now I've pretty much set myself up perfectly for the end game plan I envisioned. I'm feeling very comfortable because I'm in exactly the position I want to be in - and I should have established map control (since Terran is turtling off 3 bases), an economy advantage, and a troop advantage.
This is where it diverges - I usually like to go mass arbiters, although Terrans lately are getting pretty efficient at denying recalls and stuff. However, what I like to do in my games is really be aggressive about recalling, and use my economy advantage to just wear down the Terran player. What I mean by this is that I'll recall into their base (usually comes as they want to try and start their big push... the recall keeps them from doing this), wreak havoc, lose my recall... recall again, wreak more havoc, attack an expansion with army, etc. Eventually because at this stage you have 5 or more bases, and you should have at least 10-15 gateways, you're able to continue arbiter and troop production to counteract you losing army, and you're slowly chipping away at THEIR army in the process while damaging their ability to reproduce units.
Think about it this way: let's say you recall 20 units into the Terran main. He runs army over to defend his base. Quite possibly you kill some supply depots (when I recall I aim for: comstat, academy, armory, factories, depots), maybe a factory, and about 10 of his units. The Terran off 3 bases probably has about 8-9 factories, if you kill one that puts him at 8. So when you kill 10 of his units, he can only reproduce 8. You lose your 20 units, but immediately have 15 more ready to go.... and he can't push because of the danger of another recall.
Second recall comes at his nat or something, you're able to kill scvs, his command center, and probably some more units. Now his army has lost ~20 units, he's reproduced 15 or so, so his army count is less, and he's lost an expansion and reproduction capacity is diminished. Another recall into his main, you kill about 10 more units, kill 2 factories, etc.
Usually after 2 recalls or so, the Terran gets angry and just decides to hard counter you - in which case you're dealing with a smaller army, because he's pissed and probably has left some units in his bases to deal with a potential recall, or because he forgot... plus you've lowered his army count slightly through your recalls. You still have a sizable force plus arbiters. If you're able to dodge EMP and get off 1-2 stasis, his entire army gets crushed, and you have the game in the bag.
Where I'm Weak
I think in teaching people and discussing something like how I play PvT, it is important to convey weaknesses. For example, in realizing where I myself am weak, not only can help me to address those flaws in my game, but can also make suggestions to other players. For example, a D ranked played or something might not know or realize his weaknesses. If your macro is really bad, there's no way you can address specific flaws in your game.
I feel comfortable and at a decent enough level in this matchup to be able to isolate my flaws.
Examples
1) Dealing with harass heavy Terrans. I've played a few games against C+ Terrans that by all respects I should have won, but ended up losing because of ineffectively dealing with harass. People with really good vulture and drop harass give me a lot of trouble because I'm a fairly slow player, and that exposes my weakness big time (forcing me to constantly be moving fast to multitask, running probes around, microing against mines and vultures, and still trying to maintain macro).
2) Incorporating reavers and DT's to slow Terrans down more. I really don't utilize my own means of harassing Terran players enough. My harass usually comes in the form of early goon pressure, followed by a weirdly high army count early on to stop a 100 push or deny a 3rd. If I can start successfully using reavers to kill scvs, depots, or otherwise just annoy Terran players, I can have a much more comfortable time securing a 3rd, teching up, or even taking a much earlier 4th base. The same story goes with DT usage - DT's are pretty effective in making sure the Terran can't push out (forces them to wait for scan, etc). I USED to use DT's a lot more, for example I'd do a sort of mid-game DT drop (either right after or right before they get scan) that was pretty effective in a lot of situations.
3) Better army management. Basically what I rely on in PvT is wearing them down. I throw my armies at the Terran player, slowly chipping away and hurting their production capacity, while my economy just replenishes my troops. I realize however, that this isn't really necessary. If I get better at using my armies I can probably end a lot of my PvT's earlier. For example, I need to learn how to better group my units: (Tip from Louder: goons + obs + temps are grouped together, zealots are grouped separately). When attacking, it's best to attack with dragoons firs, clear as many mines as possible, then back off the dragoons, lead the charge with zealots, and have the dragoons follow. This way the zealots take reduced mine damage, take tank hits, and the dragoons rampage. Your templars are also saved this way so that they can actually get storms off.
4) Shuttles are also really good - I don't use them nearly enough.
What I'm planning on doing for my livestream tutorial is to look through some PvT games I've played, and work through some builds in single player to give examples of how I play things, etc. I'd also be taking questions maybe and working with some people or something, I dunno! Anything really.
Who does this help
Basically I think my thoughts on PvT will be useful for anybody from D - B- level skill. Although I'm currently C+, I believe that my PvT skill is higher than my other two matchups (IMO: PvT B-, PvZ C (maybe C+), PvP C-), and again I guess I have some "PvT" credentials (through LAN performance and such). So ya, if anybody is interested in this, check into my livestream tomorrow and read this guide.
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When attacking, it's best to attack with dragoons firs, clear as many mines as possible, then back off the dragoons, lead the charge with zealots, and have the dragoons follow. This way the zealots take reduced mine damage, take tank hits, and the dragoons rampage. Your templars are also saved this way so that they can actually get storms off.
This is really solid stuff. Specifically with temps, you a fan of putting them in shuttles to dodge tank volleys and then dropping for storm?
Edit: happy birthday!
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Really good idea, thanks for this. I read your guide and I'll check out those videos if you make them.
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I'm super interested! I think another credential that you have, which you didn't mention, is that you are involved with a lot of high-level players through team Pandemic and running tournaments.
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Where you say have the zealots charge in, you should specify that it should not be using the a-command, but the move command instead.
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Hey awesome now I can use your weaknesses against you tonight~~
edit: not to come off as a bitch or anything lol. This is pretty good; pretty safe; pretty standard.
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On November 13 2009 03:23 Nevuk wrote:
Where you say have the zealots charge in, you should specify that it should not be using the a-command, but the move command instead.
That's what I meant by "charge", otherwise I would have said "attack" : )
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On November 13 2009 02:42 wok wrote:Show nested quote +
When attacking, it's best to attack with dragoons firs, clear as many mines as possible, then back off the dragoons, lead the charge with zealots, and have the dragoons follow. This way the zealots take reduced mine damage, take tank hits, and the dragoons rampage. Your templars are also saved this way so that they can actually get storms off.
This is really solid stuff. Specifically with temps, you a fan of putting them in shuttles to dodge tank volleys and then dropping for storm? Edit: happy birthday!
I'm a FAN of it, but I don't actually do it because I'm retarded.
For an amazing example of how fucking powerful this is - watch (I think) Nal_ra vs Nada, or whatever that match was on Outsider in that old school retired pros vs still good pros. He destroyed the first push with some amazing shuttle-drop storms.
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On November 13 2009 03:28 Pokebunny wrote:
Hey awesome now I can use your weaknesses against you tonight~~
edit: not to come off as a bitch or anything lol. This is pretty good; pretty safe; pretty standard.
Please do 
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16987 Posts
Don't worry, Pokebunny's TvP is fairly terrible
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On November 13 2009 03:58 Empyrean wrote:Don't worry, Pokebunny's TvP is fairly terrible
HEY. FFFFUUU
On November 13 2009 03:46 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 03:28 Pokebunny wrote:
Hey awesome now I can use your weaknesses against you tonight~~
edit: not to come off as a bitch or anything lol. This is pretty good; pretty safe; pretty standard. Please do
Pff don't worry you're gonna rape me :D
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
this is good stuff at least for me
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Thanks for all the advice. I have been getting pounded by 2 fact pushes and drops, so hopefully this will help.
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This is awesome, my weakest MU is PvT. PvZ is the only reason im at D+, because D level zergs dont try to snipe templar with muta, just gogo 1a2a3a hydras >_>
I always feel like my zeals die to vulture fire without clearing much mines, and my goons die before getting to tanks due to remaining mines. And whenever I recall the terran just counters my main and wins T_T
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I would love a tutorial of this sort, I feel like I've become disconnected from my PvT lately due to practicing my much worse PvP/PvZ.
A build that works for me, that perhaps you could give a try, is to go 5-6 gate after exp with a zealbomb shuttle to pressure the T and show presence on the map, followed by double exp with templar + arb tech coming with that. Really messes up anti-third push timings and keeps up with harassy fantasy styles as well as the old flash style for macro.
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On November 13 2009 08:41 TheAntZ wrote:
This is awesome, my weakest MU is PvT. PvZ is the only reason im at D+, because D level zergs dont try to snipe templar with muta, just gogo 1a2a3a hydras >_>
I always feel like my zeals die to vulture fire without clearing much mines, and my goons die before getting to tanks due to remaining mines. And whenever I recall the terran just counters my main and wins T_T
yea even with hydra-lurk, temp sniping is still possible.
and btw, its ideally goons vs vults, and zeals vs tanks. 2-gate obs is a pretty good thing to do if ur worried bout mines.
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Where can I get a replay or White-ra using this 7 goon double expo, from the sounds of it I think i want to emulate this.
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On November 13 2009 03:28 Pokebunny wrote:
Hey awesome now I can use your weaknesses against you tonight~~
edit: not to come off as a bitch or anything lol. This is pretty good; pretty safe; pretty standard.
Glad that worked out for you <3
Btw, you didn't harass me AT ALL... you let me take 5 bases easy. You pretty much played EXACTLY into how I described PvT in this post actually. 1 fac expo, I double expanded, you tried to do a mid-game push. I stopped it. Took more bases. You took a 3rd, but it was too late.
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wow awesome! pvt is my weakest matchup, thanks for the tips
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please teach me how to move my units into a push without all of them dying. i will watch your stream every day if i have to. good read btw lol
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Nice write-up. I'm curious what NonY would say on your insight but it seems solid to me.
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On November 13 2009 11:09 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 03:28 Pokebunny wrote:
Hey awesome now I can use your weaknesses against you tonight~~
edit: not to come off as a bitch or anything lol. This is pretty good; pretty safe; pretty standard. Glad that worked out for you <3 Btw, you didn't harass me AT ALL... you let me take 5 bases easy. You pretty much played EXACTLY into how I described PvT in this post actually. 1 fac expo, I double expanded, you tried to do a mid-game push. I stopped it. Took more bases. You took a 3rd, but it was too late.
Well I thought I could timing push since you went reaver but you still had some unitz D:
and I was worried about my macro fail mostly lolol... it wasn't the bases, it was the fact that I had 3k when I ggd
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On November 13 2009 12:37 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 11:09 Xeris wrote:On November 13 2009 03:28 Pokebunny wrote:
Hey awesome now I can use your weaknesses against you tonight~~
edit: not to come off as a bitch or anything lol. This is pretty good; pretty safe; pretty standard. Glad that worked out for you <3 Btw, you didn't harass me AT ALL... you let me take 5 bases easy. You pretty much played EXACTLY into how I described PvT in this post actually. 1 fac expo, I double expanded, you tried to do a mid-game push. I stopped it. Took more bases. You took a 3rd, but it was too late. Well I thought I could timing push since you went reaver but you still had some unitz D: and I was worried about my macro fail mostly lolol... it wasn't the bases, it was the fact that I had 3k when I ggd
IF YOU READ MY GUIDE.... You would know that I cut probes to get more units because I knew you would try a timing push (which you did). Basically it's just like baiting you into trying to do that timing push because by losing all those units you get REALLY far behind in tank count and such. And ya, you lost like 45654 depots to my reavers.
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On November 13 2009 12:29 Waffles wrote:
please teach me how to move my units into a push without all of them dying. i will watch your stream every day if i have to. good read btw lol
To be honest - I'm not very good at this yet But watch tomorrow, I'm going to go through some of my reps and such.
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pokebunny needz sum timing push lessonz.
wat time is the bday celebration stream gonna be starting?
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3pm tomorrow most likely, ima be leaving work early to prep for it, rararararr.
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gonna go live with the cast in 15 min
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On November 14 2009 04:38 Xeris wrote:
gonna go live with the cast in 15 min
 im working cant watch it
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how is this a tutorial? just a bunch of rambling about your pvt
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Its all nice and stuff but in modern tvp just need 2 builds, 12 nex > 2 base arb and 9/9 gate every toss above B does this and its a painshit to beat. 2gate/robo on modern maps fails horribly vs flash style of play or even a delayd fantasy is strong vs it cause you cant denie the expo cause dropships/vult going arround. Cause you delayed your own eco he will get ahead.
A 1000x better build is 2 gate goon > 3 base.
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A midgame/lategame push can also be helped by HT.
Since you NEVER want to engage a fully settled T army, its always best to catch the army on the move. Set up a wide perimeter and move in from multiple sides. Catch the T off guard and maybe he'll clump up his tanks. Storm it up  2 storms = dead tank
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On November 14 2009 06:05 4Servy wrote:
Its all nice and stuff but in modern tvp just need 2 builds, 12 nex > 2 base arb and 9/9 gate every toss above B does this and its a painshit to beat. 2gate/robo on modern maps fails horribly vs flash style of play or even a delayd fantasy is strong vs it cause you cant denie the expo cause dropships/vult going arround. Cause you delayed your own eco he will get ahead.
A 1000x better build is 2 gate goon > 3 base.
Considering I have 80% winrate PvT at C ranks on my smurf, and have been able to beat C+ players pretty handily recently with my build I think it's pretty damn strong for the level of play I'm catering this guide to.
I have no idea how the dynamic of PvT will change at B ranks... because I'm not a B rank player. I only know what works at my level of play, and this build has been the most effective I've found. Of course, I don't claim that this is 100% the BEST PvT build, but it's what I have had the most success with, and I wanted to share it with others.
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On November 14 2009 05:50 LeoTheLion wrote:
how is this a tutorial? just a bunch of rambling about your pvt
It's a tutorial because it gives the thought process that I follow, so if you follow my thought process, look at my build (I.E watch the video I just made) you should be able to fundamentally and theoretically have ~C/C+ level PvT just based on this.
Obviously you need to practice execution and have C level gameplay overall, but if you're struggling with PvT this should help from a theoretic standpoint.
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ANYWAYS: Check my On-Demand section under "Guides" ... I just casted 1.5 hours of replays, went through my build order, and did Q&A. I hope this was helpful to everyone!
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I would like to watch a rep.
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Thanks a ton for the guide / analysis / Q&A, Xeris! We really appreciate it. It's awesome to be able to watch the session on On Demand, but could you post an exemplary rep for us in this thread? Thanks!
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I'm gonna post a rep pack tomorrow or something! Just gotta finish compiling it.
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good guidelines man. Thanks! :D
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On November 13 2009 13:00 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2009 12:37 Pokebunny wrote:On November 13 2009 11:09 Xeris wrote:On November 13 2009 03:28 Pokebunny wrote:
Hey awesome now I can use your weaknesses against you tonight~~
edit: not to come off as a bitch or anything lol. This is pretty good; pretty safe; pretty standard. Glad that worked out for you <3 Btw, you didn't harass me AT ALL... you let me take 5 bases easy. You pretty much played EXACTLY into how I described PvT in this post actually. 1 fac expo, I double expanded, you tried to do a mid-game push. I stopped it. Took more bases. You took a 3rd, but it was too late. Well I thought I could timing push since you went reaver but you still had some unitz D: and I was worried about my macro fail mostly lolol... it wasn't the bases, it was the fact that I had 3k when I ggd IF YOU READ MY GUIDE.... You would know that I cut probes to get more units because I knew you would try a timing push (which you did). Basically it's just like baiting you into trying to do that timing push because by losing all those units you get REALLY far behind in tank count and such. And ya, you lost like 45654 depots to my reavers.
I did read it. The problem wasn't in the strategy but mostly the execution
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When I'm PvTing on a map with a long destination...such as Destination, I find that I:
1. Either totally contain the Terran within his own ramp within the first 3 minutes by just Probe/Zealot-microing within his base (at that point the Terran user usually only has a wall-in with 1-2 marines).
2. Totally fuck up and lose to proxy-raxs.
Now, #1 is like what 99% of my PvTs are like, regardless if I'm winning or losing.
I feel like I can win a shit-ton more if I just knew WHAT to do after I contain the Terran. I mean, he opts for a quick 2-fac vult harass, but my goons usually are faster than his vults.
After that, I'm completely clueless - do I go take my natural or should I get shuttles?
Terran seems just so ridiculously overpowered with their infamous "Slow-push" in the mid-game. This is where I usually lose. Late-game is EZ for me, arbiters, storms, carriers, etc, ez shit.
Early-game is basically just 1a2a3a for me, I can just win against C+ Terrans with just a Probe/Zealot and microing.
Question: What BO should I go in PvT if T opts for a 2-Fac BO?
P.S. I'm D+ Protoss, rofl.
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EPT
