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Analysis of historical KeSPA rankings - Page 3

Forum Index > BW General
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siv00
Profile Joined September 2009
261 Posts
September 16 2009 15:16 GMT
#41
On September 01 2009 21:44 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 01 2009 18:43 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Crazy, Jaedong knocking off Nada's 1st-2nd differential, and coming up strong on the 1st-3rd differential as well.

Oh well, it's only to be expected when someone goes on monster runs in starleagues. He's got all the statistical makings of a bonjwa, he's just missing that feeling of dominance that I doubt will ever happen again.

Don't worry, I'm sure that after he gets his break and has everything with Hwaseung settled and has a decent pay, the feeling will come. In my opinion, his death face when he's really playing at his best is scarier than any bonjwa ever was.


His sad face is even scarier than that imo
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
September 16 2009 22:25 GMT
#42
Nada is the only player to have won a simultaneous OSL/MSL. Just for that he should be the #1 all time player IMO.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
September 16 2009 22:52 GMT
#43
He did? I thought that was Nal Ra.
Jaedong
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-16 23:12:57
September 16 2009 22:55 GMT
#44
Nada definitely did. Nal_rA's MSL and OSL wins didn't even share any dates.

MSL: First game's date: 2003-04-17 - Last game's date: 2003-07-19
OSL: First game's date: 2003-12-12 - Last game's date: 2004-03-21

They were won really close together, though, which was a feat for Protoss at the time, especially considering no protoss had won the MSL before.

Nada's:

MSL: First game's date: 2002-10-15 - Last game's date: 2003-01-18
OSL: First game's date: 2002-11-15 - Last game's date: 2003-02-14

Amusingly, Nada beat Chojja both times for that. Does that mean Chojja is the only dual silver winner for one season, as well?

edit: Yep, I'm pretty sure he is. Stork had MSL silver before his OSL silver, Reach's MSL silver came at the same time as his OSL gold (another impressive feat, but not quite as good as Nada's).

So, Nada is the only dual gold winner, while Chojja is the only dual silver winner, both in the same season. Talk about a dominant pair for that brief period.
Remember Violet.
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-09 19:43:27
June 09 2010 19:43 GMT
#45
% difference between 1st and 2nd

1. (Z)Jaedong, 68.26%, Nov 2009
2. (Z)Jaedong, 63.30%, Oct 2009
3. (Z)Jaedong, 55.33%, Dec 2009
4. (Z)Jaedong, 54.77%, Sep 2009
5. (T)Flash, 41.91%, Jun 2010
6. (T)NaDa, 41.12%, Feb 2004
7. (T)NaDa, 38.62%, Dec 2003
8. (T)NaDa, 37.53%, Mar 2004
9. (T)Flash, 37.27%, May 2010
10. (T)iloveoov, 36.61%, Jan 2005
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-09 19:48:54
June 09 2010 19:47 GMT
#46
On June 10 2010 04:43 jalstar wrote:
% difference between 1st and 2nd

1. (Z)Jaedong, 68.26%, Nov 2009
2. (Z)Jaedong, 63.30%, Oct 2009
3. (Z)Jaedong, 55.33%, Dec 2009
4. (Z)Jaedong, 54.77%, Sep 2009
5. (T)Flash, 41.91%, Jun 2010
6. (T)NaDa, 41.12%, Feb 2004
7. (T)NaDa, 38.62%, Dec 2003
8. (T)NaDa, 37.53%, Mar 2004
9. (T)Flash, 37.27%, May 2010
10. (T)iloveoov, 36.61%, Jan 2005

I expect August/September 2010 to show up there. Remember that Kespa rank is a past year performance measurement. The % difference between 1st and 2nd will jump sharply when the Bacchus '09 win falls out of Jaedong's record.

Jaedong had such a huge lead in those months because at the time, his closest competitor in game quality, Bisu, had a nasty habit of dropping out of one league or another in the group stages.
Moderator
jalstar
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States8198 Posts
June 09 2010 20:04 GMT
#47
The late 09 Kespa ranks reflect mid 2009 when everyone was horribly inconsistent. Leta, Stork, Flash, Bisu, Effort, and fantasy were considered to be the top players besides Jaedong, yet the three finalists besides Jaedong were Yarnc, Calm, and Kwanro.
luckybeni2
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany1065 Posts
June 09 2010 23:24 GMT
#48
On June 10 2010 05:04 jalstar wrote:
The late 09 Kespa ranks reflect mid 2009 when everyone was horribly inconsistent. Leta, Stork, Flash, Bisu, Effort, and fantasy were considered to be the top players besides Jaedong, yet the three finalists besides Jaedong were Yarnc, Calm, and Kwanro.

Yeah. That was really a rank that was created by horrible maps. In generally the bigger the difference in the rank does not mean tat one was playing very good but far more reasonable would be to say tere were no good opponents. The recent starleagues were mosty crap(movie, yarnc, kwanro anyone?) even in times of the protoss dominance I thought the individuals sucked although they had an ridicoulusly high skill level. Now all Ps suck at pvz even more than usual and most real contenders fall out far too early(stork bisu fantasy) and leave either Flash or JD to be taking the title. Say what you whant but the last MSL and OSL finals both had a low display of skill. Getting run over by zerglings so easily? Trying to rush Hive without units? And loosing to the same build 3 times in a row? Is that the best Starcraft has to offer?
agen
Profile Joined October 2008
Barbados111 Posts
June 09 2010 23:27 GMT
#49
thanks for the update.
jackofclubs81
Profile Joined January 2010
United States196 Posts
June 10 2010 01:19 GMT
#50
On August 02 2009 03:11 Fluffy Pingu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2009 03:08 xMiragex wrote:
where is bisu!? /end bisu fanboy troll comment

nice to see these numbers


see inside the spoiler tag. but to answer your question: Bisu is not even close!

I would kindly disagree with that sir. Bisu may not have had perennial dominance, but he saved sc. One of the matchups was broken and he fixed it. Without him Flash and Jaedong wouldnt exist because nobody would follow sc anymore due to imba. Now being rebalanced bc of BISU we still get epic games. / End Bisu fanboy rage
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
June 10 2010 02:21 GMT
#51
On June 10 2010 10:19 jackofclubs81 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2009 03:11 Fluffy Pingu wrote:
On August 02 2009 03:08 xMiragex wrote:
where is bisu!? /end bisu fanboy troll comment

nice to see these numbers


see inside the spoiler tag. but to answer your question: Bisu is not even close!

I would kindly disagree with that sir. Bisu may not have had perennial dominance, but he saved sc. One of the matchups was broken and he fixed it. Without him Flash and Jaedong wouldnt exist because nobody would follow sc anymore due to imba. Now being rebalanced bc of BISU we still get epic games. / End Bisu fanboy rage


I think he was saying that numbers wise bisu was not close.

not that bisu was a worthless player to starcraft

he is a good player to have on FPL antiteam though, just saying
Writer
danielias
Profile Joined August 2012
Chile67 Posts
August 25 2017 04:42 GMT
#52
Can someone add Flash stats?
danielias
Profile Joined August 2012
Chile67 Posts
August 25 2017 04:43 GMT
#53
OMG sAviOr, 92.19%, Mar 2007
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 05:47:13
August 25 2017 05:24 GMT
#54
On August 25 2017 13:42 danielias wrote:
Can someone add Flash stats?


If it is the top spots you are interested in, Jaedong's points in November 2009 has the highest discrepancy between itself, and the points of the next highest player on the rankings (Bisu). Flash's points in November 2010 has the highest discrepancy between itself, and the points of the third highest player on the rankings (FanTaSy).

When Jaedong was in his prime, there was a severe shortage of players who were truly great in both the individual leagues, and the ProLeague, both of which were vital in terms of getting a good placement in the KeSPA rankings. There was nobody who was consistently challenging him for the top spot across all platforms.

In 2010, despite Flash having a better much performance than Jaedong did in 2009, the fact that Jaedong was reaching all those finals, while also being the second best performing player in the ProLeague, made Jaedong the only player in history to have over 3000 points in the KeSPA rankings and not be ranked first in the standings. It is easier to tell how further ahead Flash was ahead of everyone else by checking the difference between him, and the third highest ranked player on the KeSPA rankings at the time.
TL+ Member
danielias
Profile Joined August 2012
Chile67 Posts
August 25 2017 12:49 GMT
#55
On August 25 2017 14:24 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2017 13:42 danielias wrote:
Can someone add Flash stats?


If it is the top spots you are interested in, Jaedong's points in November 2009 has the highest discrepancy between itself, and the points of the next highest player on the rankings (Bisu). Flash's points in November 2010 has the highest discrepancy between itself, and the points of the third highest player on the rankings (FanTaSy).

When Jaedong was in his prime, there was a severe shortage of players who were truly great in both the individual leagues, and the ProLeague, both of which were vital in terms of getting a good placement in the KeSPA rankings. There was nobody who was consistently challenging him for the top spot across all platforms.

In 2010, despite Flash having a better much performance than Jaedong did in 2009, the fact that Jaedong was reaching all those finals, while also being the second best performing player in the ProLeague, made Jaedong the only player in history to have over 3000 points in the KeSPA rankings and not be ranked first in the standings. It is easier to tell how further ahead Flash was ahead of everyone else by checking the difference between him, and the third highest ranked player on the KeSPA rankings at the time.



Thanks for the info.

What do you think about savior stats?
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-25 17:08:24
August 25 2017 17:03 GMT
#56
On August 25 2017 21:49 danielias wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2017 14:24 Letmelose wrote:
On August 25 2017 13:42 danielias wrote:
Can someone add Flash stats?


If it is the top spots you are interested in, Jaedong's points in November 2009 has the highest discrepancy between itself, and the points of the next highest player on the rankings (Bisu). Flash's points in November 2010 has the highest discrepancy between itself, and the points of the third highest player on the rankings (FanTaSy).

When Jaedong was in his prime, there was a severe shortage of players who were truly great in both the individual leagues, and the ProLeague, both of which were vital in terms of getting a good placement in the KeSPA rankings. There was nobody who was consistently challenging him for the top spot across all platforms.

In 2010, despite Flash having a better much performance than Jaedong did in 2009, the fact that Jaedong was reaching all those finals, while also being the second best performing player in the ProLeague, made Jaedong the only player in history to have over 3000 points in the KeSPA rankings and not be ranked first in the standings. It is easier to tell how further ahead Flash was ahead of everyone else by checking the difference between him, and the third highest ranked player on the KeSPA rankings at the time.



Thanks for the info.

What do you think about savior stats?


The comparison is less straight forward if you include sAviOr into the conversation. Jaedong and Flash had both their career peaks under very similar set of circumstances, and the way KeSPA allocated points was basically the same in 2009, and 2010, unless I am mistaken.

However, sAviOr reigned supreme during in era where ProLeague schedule was not as extensive, and KeSPA had a different formula for allocating their points. As far as I know, the reason why sAviOr failed to secure the number one spot in December 2006, despite having excellent performances in the ProLeague, and the MSL, was because KeSPA used reward more points for winning the OGN StarLeague, than for winning the MSL (I think their reasoning was because OGN StarLeague had a bigger overall prize pool back then).

I think KeSPA rankings had the decay system for quite some time, where results that's over a year old are no longer counted. So let's compare their results by a time frame of one year's worth of competition.

The ProLeague schedule was vastly different for a player competing in 2006, and a player competing in 2009. For example. Jaedong was the best performing ProLeague player with 17 ProLeague victories (sAviOr was the second best with 16 ProLeague victories) for the 2006 season, however, that performance would barely make the top 40, in the more recent 2008/2009, or 2009/2010 seasons. It simply is not a fair comparison.

The only thing that's consistent is that sAviOr, Jaedong, and Flash all competed in six individual leagues that took place over a year long period, half of them being the OGN StarLeague, and half of them being the MSL. Let's ignore the fact that during sAviOr's era, MSL had a smaller overall prize pool than the OGN StarLeague.

sAviOr: 3 championships out of 6 participations

Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1: Eliminated in the offline qualifiers
Pringles MSL S1: 1st
Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: Eliminated in the offline qualifiers
Pringles MSL S2: 1st
Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 1st
GomTV MSL S1: 2nd

Jaedong: 3 championships out of 6 participations

Lost Saga MSL: Round of 32
Batoo OGN StarLeague: 1st
Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 1st
Avalon MSL: Round of 4
EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: Round of 8
NATE MSL: 1st

Flash: 4 championships out of 6 participations

EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: 1st
NATE MSL: 2nd
Korean Air OGN StarLeague: 2nd
Hana Daetoo MSL: 1st
Big File MSL: 1st
Korean Air OGN StarLeague: 2nd

What Flash achieved during his peak is objectively superior to what both sAviOr and Jaedong achieved within the same space of time. There is a reason why Jaedong stayed around 3,000 points during his peak, while Flash stayed around 4,000 points during his. The only reason why Jaedong had a large difference between himself, and the second best player on the KeSPA rankings, isn't because Jaedong peak was more impressive than Flash's peak, it was because Jaedong was a much more competent supporting cast to Flash's tales of glory, than Bisu was for Jaedong's.

In the same vein, the huge difference in the number of points sAviOr had compared to Iris, who was the the third highest ranked player in March 2007, can be attributed partly to sAviOr's excellence, and partly because the third best player at the time in terms of KeSPA ranking points simply wasn't all that impressive compared to some of the other third ranked players over the years.

Take a look at these hypothetical situations, for example:

There are 6 tournaments. You get 10 points for winning, and 5 points for placing second.

Situation 1

Tournament 1: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 2: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 3: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 4: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 5: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 6: Player A beats Player B

Player A has 60 points, Player B has 30 points. Player A has 100% more points than the second best player.

Situation 2

Tournament 1: Player A beats Player C
Tournament 2: Player A beats Player D
Tournament 3: Player E beats Player A
Tournament 4: Player F beats Player G
Tournament 5: Player H beats Player I
Tournament 6: Player J beats Player K

Player A has 25 points, Player E has 10 points. Player A has 150% more points than the second best player.

I would personally say that Player A has done way better in Situation 1, but by the virtue of everybody else sucking so much and being one hit wonders, Player A actually has 150% more points than the second best player despite only winning two tournaments, instead of winning them all.
TL+ Member
ppp87
Profile Joined May 2016
Laos254 Posts
August 25 2017 17:24 GMT
#57
Just a reminder that ChoJJa was n°1 KeSPa at some point in time. The thread can now continue.
danielias
Profile Joined August 2012
Chile67 Posts
August 25 2017 18:35 GMT
#58
On August 26 2017 02:03 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 25 2017 21:49 danielias wrote:
On August 25 2017 14:24 Letmelose wrote:
On August 25 2017 13:42 danielias wrote:
Can someone add Flash stats?


If it is the top spots you are interested in, Jaedong's points in November 2009 has the highest discrepancy between itself, and the points of the next highest player on the rankings (Bisu). Flash's points in November 2010 has the highest discrepancy between itself, and the points of the third highest player on the rankings (FanTaSy).

When Jaedong was in his prime, there was a severe shortage of players who were truly great in both the individual leagues, and the ProLeague, both of which were vital in terms of getting a good placement in the KeSPA rankings. There was nobody who was consistently challenging him for the top spot across all platforms.

In 2010, despite Flash having a better much performance than Jaedong did in 2009, the fact that Jaedong was reaching all those finals, while also being the second best performing player in the ProLeague, made Jaedong the only player in history to have over 3000 points in the KeSPA rankings and not be ranked first in the standings. It is easier to tell how further ahead Flash was ahead of everyone else by checking the difference between him, and the third highest ranked player on the KeSPA rankings at the time.



Thanks for the info.

What do you think about savior stats?


The comparison is less straight forward if you include sAviOr into the conversation. Jaedong and Flash had both their career peaks under very similar set of circumstances, and the way KeSPA allocated points was basically the same in 2009, and 2010, unless I am mistaken.

However, sAviOr reigned supreme during in era where ProLeague schedule was not as extensive, and KeSPA had a different formula for allocating their points. As far as I know, the reason why sAviOr failed to secure the number one spot in December 2006, despite having excellent performances in the ProLeague, and the MSL, was because KeSPA used reward more points for winning the OGN StarLeague, than for winning the MSL (I think their reasoning was because OGN StarLeague had a bigger overall prize pool back then).

I think KeSPA rankings had the decay system for quite some time, where results that's over a year old are no longer counted. So let's compare their results by a time frame of one year's worth of competition.

The ProLeague schedule was vastly different for a player competing in 2006, and a player competing in 2009. For example. Jaedong was the best performing ProLeague player with 17 ProLeague victories (sAviOr was the second best with 16 ProLeague victories) for the 2006 season, however, that performance would barely make the top 40, in the more recent 2008/2009, or 2009/2010 seasons. It simply is not a fair comparison.

The only thing that's consistent is that sAviOr, Jaedong, and Flash all competed in six individual leagues that took place over a year long period, half of them being the OGN StarLeague, and half of them being the MSL. Let's ignore the fact that during sAviOr's era, MSL had a smaller overall prize pool than the OGN StarLeague.

sAviOr: 3 championships out of 6 participations

Shinhan OGN StarLeague S1: Eliminated in the offline qualifiers
Pringles MSL S1: 1st
Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: Eliminated in the offline qualifiers
Pringles MSL S2: 1st
Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 1st
GomTV MSL S1: 2nd

Jaedong: 3 championships out of 6 participations

Lost Saga MSL: Round of 32
Batoo OGN StarLeague: 1st
Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: 1st
Avalon MSL: Round of 4
EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: Round of 8
NATE MSL: 1st

Flash: 4 championships out of 6 participations

EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: 1st
NATE MSL: 2nd
Korean Air OGN StarLeague: 2nd
Hana Daetoo MSL: 1st
Big File MSL: 1st
Korean Air OGN StarLeague: 2nd

What Flash achieved during his peak is objectively superior to what both sAviOr and Jaedong achieved within the same space of time. There is a reason why Jaedong stayed around 3,000 points during his peak, while Flash stayed around 4,000 points during his. The only reason why Jaedong had a large difference between himself, and the second best player on the KeSPA rankings, isn't because Jaedong peak was more impressive than Flash's peak, it was because Jaedong was a much more competent supporting cast to Flash's tales of glory, than Bisu was for Jaedong's.

In the same vein, the huge difference in the number of points sAviOr had compared to Iris, who was the the third highest ranked player in March 2007, can be attributed partly to sAviOr's excellence, and partly because the third best player at the time in terms of KeSPA ranking points simply wasn't all that impressive compared to some of the other third ranked players over the years.

Take a look at these hypothetical situations, for example:

There are 6 tournaments. You get 10 points for winning, and 5 points for placing second.

Situation 1

Tournament 1: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 2: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 3: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 4: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 5: Player A beats Player B
Tournament 6: Player A beats Player B

Player A has 60 points, Player B has 30 points. Player A has 100% more points than the second best player.

Situation 2

Tournament 1: Player A beats Player C
Tournament 2: Player A beats Player D
Tournament 3: Player E beats Player A
Tournament 4: Player F beats Player G
Tournament 5: Player H beats Player I
Tournament 6: Player J beats Player K

Player A has 25 points, Player E has 10 points. Player A has 150% more points than the second best player.

I would personally say that Player A has done way better in Situation 1, but by the virtue of everybody else sucking so much and being one hit wonders, Player A actually has 150% more points than the second best player despite only winning two tournaments, instead of winning them all.



Wow, thank you so much, such an exquisite writing and analysis. You need a Blog to share ideas!

I was reading your reply with this music




I think savior and flash are the greatest sc players of all time.

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