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I was thinking, why do we still have shroud of darkness in the game for multiplayer? It serves no real purpose. I understand the benefits of it for single player, since many missions requires exploration and the discovery aspects adds to the experience.
We already have map preview, which hardly ever accomplishes anything since the host usually just starts after dl. Nor is the 5-10seconds actually enough for u to spot all the expansions/islands/ramps/paths on a new map.
I think by removing the shroud, it would actually encourage a greater uptake of new maps being embraced and the currently occasional maps getting much more play.
Obviously this is aimed at the majority of casual and occasional players, the 90% python/hunters players. The starcraft fanatics who have about a dozen maps burnt into the back of their heads from jsut watching pro-league VODs will see no change in the shroud being removed.
Maybe they'll remove it in sc2?
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warcraft 3 u can take off fog of war, not like maphack just like uve explored it already and havnt gone back. im sure sc2 will have the option.
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Fog of war and shroud of darkness are two different things. Thought I better point that out before confusion.
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I'm pretty sure the darkness is already gone (in all the SC2 vids I've seen the entire minimap is just fog of war and there is no darkness). Darkness is dumb, that's why just about every RTS after SC doesn't have it 
It really does help when you're learning new maps and stuff.
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Wouldn't this cause some balance issues because of worker drilling into someone's main, using the minerals?
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I agree, it's really annoying and serves no real purpose except forcing players to memorize maps. I'm not sure if it's been answered before or we just didn't notice for SC2, but it might make a good karune question.
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Is this a serious question?
Without the shroud, there would be no such thing as the element of surprise, and you would know exactly what your opponent was doing at all times, and vice versa.
There would be no point to scouting, there would be no point to hiding tech, proxying, cheese builds in general, unorthodox builds, etc.
Every move you make with your army would be perfectly visible, and setting up flanks and multi-fronted attacks would be near impossible. 90% of boxer's strategies from his long career would be useless.
Oh, and ZvT would be impossibly imbalanced, as would PvT.
There are many, many, many more reasons for keeping the shroud, but that alone should illustrate my point solidly.
EDIT:
Ok, my bad...shroud and fog are two different things apparently... -____-;;
Either way, I think in the early game, it does make a difference. I don't mind too much either way, but I do think it should be kept, as there's a difference between fogged land later in the game and still darkened areas. Those newer games where the darkness has been taken out completely sort of feel a bit cheapened in that way...
Especially as it feels like maphax to be able to set a rally at a precise location juuust outside of an enemy's base without even sending a scout there...
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On January 03 2009 13:13 Loanshark wrote:
Wouldn't this cause some balance issues because of worker drilling into someone's main, using the minerals?
No, otherwise you could just drill them after you already scouted someone even if you didn't have vision of their base. It'd be a lot harder to keep scouts out.
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I think the shroud of darkness taken out would encourage players to try new maps and I wouldn't see every game on iccup being played on Python.
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On January 03 2009 13:14 PH wrote:
Is this a serious question?
Without the shroud, there would be no such thing as the element of surprise, and you would know exactly what your opponent was doing at all times, and vice versa.
There would be no point to scouting, there would be no point to hiding tech, proxying, cheese builds in general, unorthodox builds, etc.
Every move you make with your army would be perfectly visible, and setting up flanks and multi-fronted attacks would be near impossible. 90% of boxer's strategies from his long career would be useless.
Oh, and ZvT would be impossibly imbalanced, as would PvT.
There are many, many, many more reasons for keeping the shroud, but that alone should illustrate my point solidly.
Shroud != fog of war
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If there was no shroud, I would definitely play more maps.
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lol @ the people who think he is talking about fog of war.
yes, the shroud of darkness should be taken off, and it obviously will be in sc2. They didnt have it in wc3, so it is safe to assume it wont be in sc2.
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This is a good suggestion/question, it really helps when playing on new maps to know where the expansions are, especially when you want to try new maps with your friends.
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i'm guessing if you wanna improve you would look at what the map looks like anyways, but overall i think it's an awesome idea to remove it
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On January 03 2009 13:16 rushz0rz wrote:
I think the shroud of darkness taken out would encourage players to try new maps and I wouldn't see every game on iccup being played on Python.
Another benefit is that new maps would be far easier to explain to observers in a televised event.
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Whats wrong with your mini map being all black? Remembering the whole map is what makes Starcraft, well Starcraft to me. To know the map by heart and be able to exploit the map I think involves some skill towards playing the game so I like it.
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The shroud of darkness should be removed imo, theres no skill in remembering the map (it only takes about 5 games to do so anyway and all it does is discourages new maps). In warcraft 3 if you explored part of the map then it was a slightly lighter tone than it was before it was explored (so you know where your units have went earlier in the game).
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Yea removing the shroud would encourage more different map playing instead of just stupid python all the time. It serves no real purpose.
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On January 03 2009 13:14 raiame wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 13:13 Loanshark wrote:
Wouldn't this cause some balance issues because of worker drilling into someone's main, using the minerals? No, otherwise you could just drill them after you already scouted someone even if you didn't have vision of their base. It'd be a lot harder to keep scouts out.
Yeah, but that's assuming you can get in the base to see the mins first. If the shroud is lifted, then worker drilling will probably have to be fixed, otherwise there's no way to keep scouts out of your base until you have enough units to kill the scout before it gets in.
The success rate of any build that relies on the enemy not scouting it beforehand will be reduced drastically because any early scout will just get in.
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I always liked the shroud.
It provides a really nice contrast - especially for drops - because it makes it more noticeable when it comes into view. Like, 'HEY, THERE'S A SHUTTLE COMING TO OUR BASE!' And I always liked that because it came OUT OF THE FUCKING BLACKNESS.
I think the doom of new maps isn't necessarily the shroud, it's that players never need to play on them. WCG time - ppl prepping = 0 time for new maps. Plus they want to improve on the ones competed on year round so they just never wanted to play new maps. I don't really think the shroud effects that much seeing as there is a map preview beforehand, and while basic, should tell you more than enough on how to start your first game. (although that was probably never fixed right? So you still have to rejoin after downloading etc?)
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I guess there could be a feature to turn it off, its probably better to have it off when you finally learn the map since you would be able to see shuttles coming into your base like you said, but it would also allow people new to the map to learn it easier
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On January 03 2009 13:51 Loanshark wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 13:14 raiame wrote:On January 03 2009 13:13 Loanshark wrote:
Wouldn't this cause some balance issues because of worker drilling into someone's main, using the minerals? No, otherwise you could just drill them after you already scouted someone even if you didn't have vision of their base. It'd be a lot harder to keep scouts out. Yeah, but that's assuming you can get in the base to see the mins first. If the shroud is lifted, then worker drilling will probably have to be fixed, otherwise there's no way to keep scouts out of your base until you have enough units to kill the scout before it gets in. The success rate of any build that relies on the enemy not scouting it beforehand will be reduced drastically because any early scout will just get in.
If you don't have direct vision of his mins, you can't drill in. If you've only scouted his minerals but don't have current vision of them, you can't drill in.
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It's all about preference, it's not necessarily bad. The option to put it on or take it off should be provided. It's useful to remember where you scanned and stuff, and, I know players who press tab to have all terrain view removed, so they only see unit dots. Even some pros do, like Sync.
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i cant imagine playing sc with the map explored. I have to agree with Testie's drop comment though it is easier for me to spot the red dot carrying doom into my base.
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They don't have it in SC2. If you watched the battle reports, the guy was explaining the thing about destructables in game and he was pointing to the place without it even being explored yet.
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On January 03 2009 14:54 RamenStyle wrote:
It's all about preference, it's not necessarily bad. The option to put it on or take it off should be provided. It's useful to remember where you scanned and stuff, and, I know players who press tab to have all terrain view removed, so they only see unit dots. Even some pros do, like Sync.
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They could just get rid of it with triggers I bet. I think it should be gone also. If you want to watch for drops, what's wrong with tabbing the terrain off?
On the other hand, I don't think it matters all that much, and I play different maps even with the shroud. It's fun to learn a new map, and there's a sense of completeness as I learn more maps.
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Fog of war is still on (lol fail if it wasn't).
Shroud is already off in all the builds I've seen, and WC3 had it off. I see no reason why it will/should be on.
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Note this is in the BW section, not SC2. The op's contention is that shroud should be off, that is all. No one is saying that fog should be off, or that shroud will be on in SC2, we know it won't be.
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It tells me where I have been and where I haven't
I like it
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I think that muslim women should be allowed to wear whatever they want to.
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On January 03 2009 16:32 .risingdragoon wrote:
It tells me where I have been and where I haven't
I like it
At least in WarCraft III, there are four possible levels of vision. Visible, "shroud" "fog where you haven't explored" and "fog where you have explored." It's easy to tell the difference between the latter two, one being dark fog the other being light fog. They both are the same as far as being able to see resources, buildings etc. however they were when you last saw them (in the case of dark fog you can't see any of your enemies starting buildings obviously), but one is dark and one is light, and mean you have never explored the area and have explored the area respectively.
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On January 03 2009 16:42 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 16:32 .risingdragoon wrote:
It tells me where I have been and where I haven't
I like it At least in WarCraft III, there are four possible levels of vision. Visible, "shroud" "fog where you haven't explored" and "fog where you have explored." It's easy to tell the difference between the latter two, one being dark fog the other being light fog. They both are the same as far as being able to see resources, buildings etc. however they were when you last saw them (in the case of dark fog you can't see any of your enemies starting buildings obviously), but one is dark and one is light, and mean you have never explored the area and have explored the area respectively.
For anyone who might still be confused, I've created some visual aides using the SC2 Battle Report!
The current (or at least recent) incarnation of the SC2 minimap and the types of fog on it.
Unexplored vs Explored vs Visible
So you can clearly still see where you've been/scanned before, but like explored terrain in SC, it may be harder to notice incoming dots on the map (though you'll probably still be able to to turn off terrain if its that important).
As for my opinion on its use in SC, I'd be in favor of removing shroud, replacing it with a dark fog like SC2 / WC3 builds. I think the benefits of being able to see the map far outweigh the benefits of a black map, particularly if terrain can be turned off.
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Yea sorry I didn't realise sc2 already had the option. Maybe in next bw patch they might include a feature to set shroud off.
Im pretty sure if they do, most games would be played with it off.
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I like how people are saying drone drill will be overpowered in SC2. IT WONT EXIST IN SC2 ITS A BUG
Or were they just talking about if the shroud of blackness was out of SC1?
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On January 03 2009 17:30 Ideas wrote:
I like how people are saying drone drill will be overpowered in SC2. IT WONT EXIST IN SC2 ITS A BUG
Or were they just talking about if the shroud of blackness was out of SC1?
No it will not be deleted, what they're talking about is clicking a mineral patch with a worker and as a result it will go through anything, now if you don't have vision of the patch you can't obviously click it but if you do have then there you go..
If Blizzard were to delete the ability for workers to go through others mineral lines would be such a hassle with everyone trying to dodge others.
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thanks for the pics geno
i think blizzard is on the right track there with their current system
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On January 03 2009 13:16 rushz0rz wrote:
I think the shroud of darkness taken out would encourage players to try new maps and I wouldn't see every game on iccup being played on Python.
Man, Python is played a lot because everyone loves it.
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You can remove most of the shroud of darkness now by using triggers, but it's mainly up to the map makers choice and the people that play on it
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Wow, how freaking hard is it to try a new map. Those who are afraid to play new maps because of shroud of darkness are just pussies.
Without shroud of darkness in SC you would forget where you already scouted and where you have yet to scout.
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On January 03 2009 20:34 BanZu wrote:
Wow, how freaking hard is it to try a new map. Those who are afraid to play new maps because of shroud of darkness are just pussies.
Without shroud of darkness in SC you would forget where you already scouted and where you have yet to scout.
It's not about being afraid, it's about being lazy. I'm lazy enough to not want to have to study a new map before playing so I end up playing same old maps. And yes, having a shroud of darkness more transparent would be enough to encourage me to try new maps on the fly.
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The fact that i know every map that i have played like the back of my hand gives me an advantage over someone who doesnt. It just adds another thing to learn which is why starcraft is such a good game.
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I hate it, I would like if it would have been removed.
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I like it.
Every game of broodwar is two species or sects within species fighting on land that is unexplored-uninhabited. I think it makes maps more interesting and makes good players be better.
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On January 03 2009 20:51 Hypnosis wrote:
The fact that i know every map that i have played like the back of my hand gives me an advantage over someone who doesnt. It just adds another thing to learn which is why starcraft is such a good game.
to bad on iccup things like that don't help =(
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I'm all for having the shroud of darkness removed, I would definitely play newer or more maps more often if I didn't have to try and memorize the damn thing in the map preview -_-
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Ya I agree with you and so does blizzard, if you watch that battle report video on starcraft2.com they removed the shroud of darkness and on the minimap it only has the fog of war. Can't tell you how many times I've lost on new maps due to the fact that I simply could not find a main in time to get a scout in or not knowing where my 3rd/4th was.
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Germany2762 Posts
lol i thought you meant that you can see your opponent all the time -.-
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Norway28665 Posts
theres no real reason why we still have the shroud of darkness, other than bw is old and it was there at the beginning and there has never been a movement to remove it
in multiplayer it serves no function.
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This like asking to play rock/paper/scissors in slow motion while telling your opponent what you are choosing.
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I don't mind the shroud of darkness. It reminds me of other old rts games I used to play which have the same shroud (such as Warcraft 1 and Red Alert 1). I don't think it should be removed, for old time's sake.
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Germany2896 Posts
I think there should be an option for a mapmaker to enable the shroud. For campaign and RPG maps total blackness in the unexplored regions is usefull, because you usually play these maps only once and you really have to explore them.
But for melee the different shades of gray solution apparently implemented in SC2 seems best.
@bubblegumbo You are not presenting any arguments which concern the shroud. Only about FoW. And nobody talked about removing FoW in melee games.
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I think this subject of discussion is no real problem. I will play with or without shroud.
I like the idea to be able to set shroud on or of.
Either at map creation(editor function) or at game creation(battle.net function).
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I think it will still hav some use, e.g. for units with blink ability,
iirc in war3 (atleast in DOTA) you cannot blink in unexplored terrain.
I think its a good way to prevent abuse of certain abilities as such, maybe.. just maybe.
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This not a question really. SC is highly skilled game and rewards the one who practice more. Not like wc3 or SC2. Its a difficult game to master really. Thats the reason it attracts progaming scene.
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At first I thought this was a huge troll but now I see what you're saying and I agree. It makes it easier for the player who plays casually to more easily try out new maps and be able to easily know where their expands and opponents mains could be.
edit: I would also love it if when you told workers to mine patches that you have previously scouted but can't currently see they'd actually mine it instead of standing next to it and just relaxing. It seems like sometimes they do mine it and sometimes they don't.
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On January 03 2009 23:36 Baddieko wrote:
This not a question really. SC is highly skilled game and rewards the one who practice more. Not like wc3 or SC2. Its a difficult game to master really. Thats the reason it attracts progaming scene.
Hey did you even play SC2? What's this flaming if you only seen low quality, bad clips on youtube?
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i wholeheartedly agree with the original poster. i think the change would benefit starcraft greatly
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Yeah, it makes sense lore-wise too to get rid of the shroud of darkness. What dumbass Terran commander or Protoss Executor would land on a planet without having explored the immediate environment?
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lol it would take the fun out of learning a new map and as Testie said, stuff coming out of the blackness is cool ^^
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On January 03 2009 17:30 Ideas wrote:
I like how people are saying drone drill will be overpowered in SC2. IT WONT EXIST IN SC2 ITS A BUG
I don't see why it wouldn't. It wasn't an error in the coding or anything, just an unexpected outcome of the game rules. The same mechanic that lets workers pass through other units when gathering exists, so depending on if they deal with stacked units the same way you could still easily be able to drone drill. Regardless people were just talking about sending workers through other units to scout, which should definitely still be in.
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On January 03 2009 17:30 Ideas wrote:
I like how people are saying drone drill will be overpowered in SC2. IT WONT EXIST IN SC2 ITS A BUG
I assume it does exist in SC2...it's not a bug it's just they act when maynarding.
And even if this was implemented in SC1 it wouldn't change drone drilling at all as the fog of war would still be covering the minerals so you can't maynard to them.
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Remind me to stab SCers everywhere the day they fear a bunch of drones climbing up their ramp.
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On January 03 2009 13:13 Loanshark wrote:
Wouldn't this cause some balance issues because of worker drilling into someone's main, using the minerals?
No only minerals that you have vision of, not fog of warred, can be used to worker drill.
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On January 03 2009 17:41 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2009 17:30 Ideas wrote:
I like how people are saying drone drill will be overpowered in SC2. IT WONT EXIST IN SC2 ITS A BUG
Or were they just talking about if the shroud of blackness was out of SC1? No it will not be deleted, what they're talking about is clicking a mineral patch with a worker and as a result it will go through anything, now if you don't have vision of the patch you can't obviously click it but if you do have then there you go.. If Blizzard were to delete the ability for workers to go through others mineral lines would be such a hassle with everyone trying to dodge others.
I know what they were afraid of. Maybe I was wrong to call worker-drilling/manyarding a bug, but it was just the only solution blizzard had with the limits of the SC1 engine. In SC2 the pathfinding will be so much better and units sizes so much better (zeals being EXACTLY as big as they appear, ect) that I don't think workers need to be able to go through everything when they are mining.
Although I haven't played SC2 at all, do workers still do through everything? I remember reading there is no more drone-drilling...
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Notice that the difference between unexplored terrain b/t SC and SC2 (from the screenshot) is that mineral patches are visible in SC2. I really like this since it saves you the trouble of searching for your natural/third on new maps that you haven't the opportunity to view beforehand, even if terrain isn't visible.
The first time I played on Loginus, I started at 7' and my drone just barely missed my natural on my way out >.< I was incredibly confused.
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On January 03 2009 22:36 bubblegumbo wrote:
This like asking to play rock/paper/scissors in slow motion while telling your opponent what you are choosing.
have you read the thread..? ._.
i'm for adding a trigger to enable or disable shroud of darkness, although i don't think that it's a significant reason why people don't play newer maps. it does give off a cool effect though.
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This was a decent thread Idea with terrible execution. Needs a poll really badly as well.
Poll: SC2: Shroud of Blackness
(Vote): Remove it (like they did in War3).
(Vote): Keep it (like in BW).
(Vote): Undecided.
(Vote): Other.
Me personally I think the shroud of blackness is good and the removal of it in warcraft3 is newbifying the game. Players who know maps and study them and practice them more are not rewarded for this.
Expanding is 1000 times easier (send your drone to the exact spot to morph without even scouting). Like I said if a noob doesn't know the map he can still see all the little nooks and crannies on the map used for proxying and find your hidden expo with a 1 click scout (or easy waypoint macroing).
Also it is a bit of an art/skill to send an overlord in just the right place on the map without even seeing the terrain or anything at all.
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Only read the first two pages, but there is a way to remove shroud of darkness in the map editors. We originally saw this being used to put the logos of leagues or stuff in the middle of the map, but since it is applicable on both melee and UMS maps you can easily remove it yourself if you really want to. Either way I don't believe it will be applied for the rest of SC:BW's career, and I like the shroud of darkness myself but think that the SC2 method seems the best.
Edit: Actually I like the shroud of darkness a lot better since it just makes the game much more epic ;D
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On January 04 2009 08:15 Superiorwolf wrote:
Only read the first two pages, but there is a way to remove shroud of darkness in the map editors. We originally saw this being used to put the logos of leagues or stuff in the middle of the map, but since it is applicable on both melee and UMS maps you can easily remove it yourself if you really want to. Either way I don't believe it will be applied for the rest of SC:BW's career, and I like the shroud of darkness myself but think that the SC2 method seems the best.
If you do it in Broodwar you can see ooze of any zerg player for some reason and therefor it is unapplicable to melee use.
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keep it, otherwise blizzard would add more bugs.
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Also without the map blacked u can select gather for ur scouting probes which eleminates a bit of micro. Also the worker could possibly pass through units being sent to ur base or at chokes making wall ins much harder.
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