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ok i started playing iccup a couple of months ago..
started to watch replays, work on build orders, and basically get my ass kicked with something learned from every loss (hopefully).
now my question is, how long did it take you to get comfortable and started to win most of your games? my record now including alts is 17-35.. the win ratio hasn't improved since i started. thats about 50 games, at what point did most of you start to see a huge improvement and general turnaround from losing to winning? (im obviously playing D level, with a goal of eventually D+ .. yes im a noob but i sill love this game)
i feel as if im learning still from my losses but its a slower process to learn the mid/late game compared to the early game..
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When iCCup first started I hit D- on every account I made, and now I can hit C with a ~52% record. It does take a while, but one day you'll just click and suddenly those fucking 9/9 gating Protoss players aren't auto-loss anymore!
EDIT : As to exactly how long, 3-4 seasons for me, more or less for you depending on the quality and frequency of your practice.
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how frequent would you play? with a job, gf, and sports its tough to find time although i try to play at least 1-2 games a day. i was thinking maybe just hardcore it for a while to get to a certain level and try to maintain it.
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in my first season (it was on theabyss, be4 iccup) i went like 20-30.
now after few seasons with lots of breaks, im C rank with 59-56 stats,
for me it always been like when i get better and i achieve new rank, ill be stuck on this rank for a while and keep a 50% win ratio(sometimes it goes lower), when i start winning my ratio will get a lil better and thats how i get to the next rank.
to sum it up, u have to keep playing till u get better (in ur case, lets say u manage to have a 40%
win ratio then it means u improve, always have a goal u want to reach),
always keep a goal in ur mind, that helps a lot (well at least for me).
check ur replays, find the mistakes, check what u have to work on, and work on it.
if u cant manage to find the mistakes, post a rep + description of the rep and im sure ppl will be glad to help u.
another thing i suggest to u, is to play only motw and play ppl that are the same rank as u (or better if u'r willing to improve).
what i like to do, is when there is a new motw, i pick one map, then i go and download replays with these maps played and watch them of course.
then i usually play only this map for 1 week till there is a new motw.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
for me my improvement came in big jumps that happened randomly, usually for specific matchup. i'd be playing a ladder game and all of a sudden something would click, and i'd suddenly be drastically better than i was before. this happened about once every few months when i was active, which was probably 50-100 serious games each period (i'm not really a massgamer). between each leap in skill i'd plateau and stay around the same.
i guess the best explanation for my pattern of getting better is the gradual culmination of little things that i worked on every game, coming together to make a significant impact on my overall play. not sure how other people get better though, i've never really experienced a linear improvement in my play.
this is boring advice, but it's the best and only way to get better - keep on going at it, ignore your record (at your level your priority should be getting better, not winning games), look over your replays, and remember to think critically about why you won or why you lost. i used to save only loss replays and watch them over and over in agony but they really paid off. everybody here who's laddered knows what it's like to feel like you're going absolutely nowhere, but don't give up! good luck!
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I never really massgame or anything, so when I game for periods of time, I always improve slowly.
If you are able to play 5-10 games per day, and carefully analyze games you lose / constantly thinking about mistakes you are making and work to fix them, you should see fairly rapid improvement, especially if you are only a D rank player.
If you really dedicate yourself to it, I think its pretty feasible to jump from D rank to C rank in about 1-2 months (2 if you are between 5-10 per day , 1 if you are 15-20 per day).
Higher than C ranks though becomes more difficult to improve rapidly.
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i guess i should play more often then .. i usually do 1-2 games a day with a few more on weekends. for the next couple of months ill try to play 5-10 games a day.
maybe ill post some replays but im sure everyone will just laugh.
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shouldnt this depend on the player? different players improve faster than others. I think it took me around 2 weeks to get from 7-16 to 16-7 after i sharpened my build orders and got my macro better. (my micro still struggling in some degree)
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I think the first iCCup seasons are really different to the current iCCup - it's so much harder.
For me personally, the first iCCup seasons, I hit C or C+ with like 60-70% win rate; but now, i'm at C+ and barely holding on with like 55% hahaha.
anyway, just remember, it gets harder as the ranks go up. from D to C wasn't too difficult for me, even though i was mainly a UMS and 2v2 player.
The only way to improve, is pretty obvious and general. you just keep playing.
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On August 02 2008 05:19 WindCalibur wrote:
shouldnt this depend on the player? different players improve faster than others. I think it took me around 2 weeks to get from 7-16 to 16-7 after i sharpened my build orders and got my macro better. (my micro still struggling in some degree)
yes it does depends on the player... but im talking more about an average gamer who wants to improve himself in a particular game. ive played RTS games since warcraft1 but i never played competitively (use map settings, storyline, 8 player bgh ffas etc.), the last time i played ladder was on bnet 8 years ago... and when i saw the level of play at iccup i was absolutely amazed and wanted to get better. im not aiming to be the best, i just don't want to be destroyed every game. From the looks of the replies getting a 50% ratio is considered pretty good.
someone who was just introduced to RTS games in general will take much longer than someone with gaming habbits and a bit of commitment. lucky for me this isn't my first RTS.
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Uh when I started playing PGT I was like D+/C- for about the first 2 seasons I think...
Then once I joined nV. I skyrocked to B+ in another season 
All you need is a team and good training partners that you can play 10 games in a row with.
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On August 02 2008 04:44 kilika wrote:
ok i started playing iccup a couple of months ago..
started to watch replays, work on build orders, and basically get my ass kicked with something learned from every loss (hopefully).
now my question is, how long did it take you to get comfortable and started to win most of your games? my record now including alts is 17-35.. the win ratio hasn't improved since i started. thats about 50 games, at what point did most of you start to see a huge improvement and general turnaround from losing to winning? (im obviously playing D level, with a goal of eventually D+ .. yes im a noob but i sill love this game)
i feel as if im learning still from my losses but its a slower process to learn the mid/late game compared to the early game..
I played so many games that even early on I was winning the majority of my games.
I started with blood bath and hunters 2v2 and 3v3. Then I joined $playaz$ and started playing 1v1 bgh and lotem. then I started playing ladder and maphacking. then I finally made the switch to broodwar(wasn't hacking anymore, too), and by then I was good enough that I almost always won pub games.
then gamei, etc, etc
basically I moved up so slowly that I was almost always winning, except once I finally got to where I was playing the absolute top foreigners and good koreans. then i resigned myself to the fact that there would be much losing.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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-play better players than yourself
-watch ur own replays after the game
for me the improvement comes like after gaming 15-25 games
hardcore and watching reps of your own games.
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1-2 games a day isn't enough at that level unless you're a genius. Mass games to gain experience.
Watch your own replays and sometimes have someone better comment on it. Better players can see things that you won't notice at all.
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On August 02 2008 06:59 [X]Ken_D wrote:
1-2 games a day isn't enough at that level unless you're a genius. Mass games to gain experience
Echoing this. 1-2 games a day really isn't enough since SC games are really short. There is no "key" to getting better at SC, just practice and observation.
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I found it helps to work on specific matchups, especially if you only play 1-2 games a day. Maybe practice BOs against computers first so you get the timings down, then only play that matchup on Iccup for a week or so. Rotate matchups until you can play them all well, then you can start moving up the ladder.
I started with a 1-10 record on Iccup, then it noticebally improved after i adopted this training tactic.
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On August 02 2008 07:23 Tomed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2008 06:59 [X]Ken_D wrote:
1-2 games a day isn't enough at that level unless you're a genius. Mass games to gain experience Echoing this. 1-2 games a day really isn't enough since SC games are really short. There is no "key" to getting better at SC, just practice and observation.
actually watching a lot of progamers while keeping a consistent 2-3 game per day and trying your best actually improves you. Why I know this? because i did this during the 2 weeks of when I went from D- to D. You have to be really critical on yourself though. You have to play like its life and death and analyze your replays well.
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So what do you do when you are A MASTER (not really..) of theorycrafting but your mind goes completely blank and you lose your focus as soon as he starts fucking around with his scout in your base?
I watch Z reps everyday and i know the build orders and everything, but i can not for the life of me stay focused whenever shit happens.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On August 02 2008 05:02 intrigue wrote:
for me my improvement came in big jumps that happened randomly, usually for specific matchup. i'd be playing a ladder game and all of a sudden something would click, and i'd suddenly be drastically better than i was before.
This.
I remember being 70apm, not wanting to use hotkeys because i found them uncomfortable to use. And then one day I incorporated 2 hotkeys to my play because i don't know, i just did and my multitasking improved a lot (apm went to 120 or so).
Then when i started playing longer matches i would include more hotkeys, and then more harrasing that required more multitasking, then maps that have shitty pathing and you need to babysit your units more, etc.
I play very little, and I play little to no ladder (50 or so was my highest number of games played on a ladder season, and the second would be like 10.
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United States42654 Posts
Play the same map, matchup and build over and over. When you lose think about how you lost and what you can do about that. Then next time don't lose. Rinse and repeat.
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On August 02 2008 04:47 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
When iCCup first started I hit D- on every account I made, and now I can hit C with a ~52% record. It does take a while, but one day you'll just click and suddenly those fucking 9/9 gating Protoss players aren't auto-loss anymore!
EDIT : As to exactly how long, 3-4 seasons for me, more or less for you depending on the quality and frequency of your practice.
Lol well at lest you didn't start out playing Terran and then said fuck it and changed to zerg because all the zergs playing zvt would just 4 or 5 pool you. I've been playing iccup for like 2 seasons C- with like maybe about 7 games in a week or so.
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you should never be winning if u are playing right  ,
meaning , you should be playing people better than you, at all times, to get better ASAP.
Therefore losing a lot ;o
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but if u want to play for fun then rawRR D:
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I'm kind of in the same boat as you. This is my first season on ICCup, and my record is 27-60.
I don't play a couple games a day though. My schedule goes from really busy for many days on end, to like 3 days off with no plans. So I tend to play many games over the course of a few days, then take a week or so off, and think about the games I played, what I could have done better, which strategies were successful for me, which strategies owned me, and how to better deal with them.
Basically, it takes time, like learning to get good at anything, but the most important thing is that you're putting in effort.
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This is my first iccup season, and I started playing with the intent of getting better about.. 3 weeks ago. It's been pretty tough for me, my APM is really really low and I haven't been able to get it much better so I haven't seen too much improvement. I think I would go about 0-50ish on iccup before a win so hopefully I can get better. I try to play 5-10 games a day and look over the replays when I don't know immediately what I did wrong, i.e. macroed horribly, messed up a wall, forgot turrets, etc.
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im just curious
i find it so difficult to improve without having somebody coach you in the right direction or to step you through a couple lessons whenever you hit trouble
i played so much this summer but i haven't gotten much better
i was basically D- since may, then moved up to low D, and within the past 2 weeks i hit as high as 2600, but for playing about... id say 700 games in that time period (2.5-3 months)... it doesn't seem all that great of an improvement considering the time i put in
is everyone here just playing alone or are they getting help from other people once in a while?
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United States17042 Posts
On August 02 2008 13:58 OMin wrote:
im just curious
i find it so difficult to improve without having somebody coach you in the right direction or to step you through a couple lessons whenever you hit trouble
i played so much this summer but i haven't gotten much better
i was basically D- since may, then moved up to low D, and within the past 2 weeks i hit as high as 2600, but for playing about... id say 700 games in that time period (2.5-3 months)... it doesn't seem all that great of an improvement considering the time i put in
is everyone here just playing alone or are they getting help from other people once in a while?
At least for me, I keep playing the same people over and over again (obviously with other people thrown in to keep it from getting too boring). That way you and hopefully your group of friends improves at almost the same rate, and you can try out strategies and see what wins against someone who knows your playstyle.
The other important thing is looking back at your games and seeing what you did wrong. It's not enough just to play- one must review their mistakes to see what you can do to make yourself better. Especially in mirror matches, and to some extent in every mu, reviewing what the other person did, and what you saw should tell you things that may be as simple as scout more, or as complex as matchup/tech timing.
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On August 02 2008 14:20 waterdragon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2008 13:58 OMin wrote:
im just curious
i find it so difficult to improve without having somebody coach you in the right direction or to step you through a couple lessons whenever you hit trouble
i played so much this summer but i haven't gotten much better
i was basically D- since may, then moved up to low D, and within the past 2 weeks i hit as high as 2600, but for playing about... id say 700 games in that time period (2.5-3 months)... it doesn't seem all that great of an improvement considering the time i put in
is everyone here just playing alone or are they getting help from other people once in a while? At least for me, I keep playing the same people over and over again (obviously with other people thrown in to keep it from getting too boring). That way you and hopefully your group of friends improves at almost the same rate, and you can try out strategies and see what wins against someone who knows your playstyle. The other important thing is looking back at your games and seeing what you did wrong. It's not enough just to play- one must review their mistakes to see what you can do to make yourself better. Especially in mirror matches, and to some extent in every mu, reviewing what the other person did, and what you saw should tell you things that may be as simple as scout more, or as complex as matchup/tech timing.
the bad thing is my rl friends SUCK at starcraft .. they aren't serious about it and even though APM isn't everything, theirs is 30 and below.
i was thinking of trying to find an active clan that would help criticize my games. the problem is i bet most active clans are too good and would rather recruit better players, and the nonactive ones won't be able to help as much.
... and holy.. 700 games? .. you must be improving though as going from D- to D (<850 to 2600 ) is a huge improvement id say. maybe i should start getting help instead of analyzing replays by myself and get 2nd and 3rd opinions. ill post some replays later on.
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i just checked my replays... it was just under 840 games
that doesn't seem all that great to me considering how much i was playing (since its summer, probably like 7 games a day)
but anyways... sometimes when I watch my own replays, I don't know what I did wrong. I mean, I find things that I know I could've done better, but past stuff like scouting a proxy or certain build (like if I didn't know they FE'd), I usually don't know whats wrong.
It's not like by watching my own replays, I'll start coming up with crazy timing pushes and stuff
it's just so much easier if somebody experienced tells you what you could've done to succeed where you failed in each situation.
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Well, I have two accounts and both are still in D since mid May of this year. It depends on the player how much he wants to improve.
I was very eager to start at the iCCup and I got schooled on basic build orders and strategies. It really took me a while to get basic BO's and another while (which was a little longer) to actually get them to work in actual games. I have a rough 100-130 apm, its a little low I know but it can shoot up to 230 when I get 2 gate zeal harassed (which is such a bitch). I don't care much about my apm, as long as I get my BO right and my timings right, I'm fine with that.
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On August 02 2008 15:00 kilika wrote:
the bad thing is my rl friends SUCK at starcraft .. they aren't serious about it and even though APM isn't everything, theirs is 30 and below.
i was thinking of trying to find an active clan that would help criticize my games. the problem is i bet most active clans are too good and would rather recruit better players, and the nonactive ones won't be able to help as much.
... and holy.. 700 games? .. you must be improving though as going from D- to D (<850 to 2600 ) is a huge improvement id say. maybe i should start getting help instead of analyzing replays by myself and get 2nd and 3rd opinions. ill post some replays later on.
There are tons of clans on bnet which aren't too overwhelmingly good and may be actively looking for members. Some have 20-30+ members and at least a few are good. For many, it is for socializing or playing for fun rather than hardcore training.
All my rl friends stop playing starcraft. I play with online friends that share the same passion.
Against lower skill level, it is easier to practice more. Against someone a lot higher, it's about trying to win by staying alive. lol
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wow maybe things are starting to turn around ive won my last 3 .... but the last one the player just left suddenly in the middle of the game... weird.
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Norway28665 Posts
hotkeys are sooooo key focus on them all the time even if it makes you a faggy spammer who has 220 apm while sucking ass
biggest single improvement I ever had was when I started hotkeying buildings :p
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You know, reading these kinds of threads always justify my feelings as a superior being (sarcasm).
In all honesty, I never thought that having positive stats ever since the first day I entered bnet counts for something, but it means I (was) at least somewhat talented, right?
Edit: Eriador is a b**ch for having a X-1 record vs me, that one win being a KoC PvRT, yay
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Norway28665 Posts
it means you started playing before people got good
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what do you guys think of using F keys instead of 1-0 hotkeys for buildings? I know you can't build stuff off screen, but other than that, it leaves you completely open to hotkey many units
i dont hotkey buildings past early game because im afraid of running out of control groups for units.. especially in a matchup like tvz where you have many marines + tanks+ medics + sci vessels for a total of at least 5 groups
so does that mean you guys just hotkey 1 or 2 buildings just so you can double hit the hotkey to bring them to the screen (and thus quickly lead you to the rest of ur production facilities?)
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I was a D-/Drank for about a month with zerg. Then I discovered 2 simple strategies that can help you win 70% of games vs t and p: 3 hatch speedlings vs ran and 3 hatch hydralisk vs toss (I didnt play ZvZ but if I did I would just 4 pool). I got to C- in just 2 weeks by following this strat but then I decided I wasnt learning anything by just doing this so I tried to make my games longer, and I was actually quite terrible at it because I couldnt hotkey.
Now Im using protoss to learn the basics of hotkeying units and buildings cause they are the easiest to learn with
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On August 03 2008 06:49 Liquid`Drone wrote:
hotkeys are sooooo key focus on them all the time even if it makes you a faggy spammer who has 220 apm while sucking ass
biggest single improvement I ever had was when I started hotkeying buildings :p
Second that. I'd just recommend using the F-keys instead of hotkeying building. Some say it's favoritism - I say it's better. It's up to you.
In the early game I use hotkeys for my first few buildings. Even the vespene geyser but I'm a freak. Later on I overwrite these hotkeys with units.
As soon as hotkeys are your second nature you can go and learn to play without them for two main reasons.
Firstly you'll learn not to mess up your hotkeys. It's important to not add every single new unit to your army instantly or by intuition because depending on the situation this might screw up your gameplan. Lets say in TvZ you have a group of 9 mutalisks along with an overlord playing the harassment game, then you add 2 new mutalisks while moving around the enemy's base. You even realize that the new mutalisks are flying straight into some m&m's that are moving out but you're too busy harassing somewhere else at the same time so you can't control these 2 mutalisks because they don't have an individual hotkey.
You want to avoid those situations but you also want to do this gosu harassment so you have to use your hotkeys carefully. This is where true multitasking lies in. It's hard but if you keep trying you'll eventually end up with a strongly improved overall game sense and you'll be better prepared for different scenarios. This skill is an important tool that you need to not lose control in a confusing game.
Secondly you'll learn a different kind of unit control. You'll learn to use your mouse and every useful key that is not a hotkey to the max in stressful scenarios. You will learn to control several groups of different unit types splattered over 2 or 3 screens. You'll also learn to be extremely quick end efficient at every task you make, not wasting crucial seconds for unneccessary things. You'll learn to prioritize. All that and much more.
But I still think starting with using hotkeys in all situations is better. The rest starts when you're already pretty good.
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I don't want to turn this into a hotkey argumentation but there are lots of good players that doesn't use hotkeys for buildings. I only use it for nexus apart from army, and I don't feel handicapped or slow with multitasking at all. I think it's preference. Sure, it can be useful in early game when you have to use all attention to micro, but later on it's only troublesome arranging hotkeys for buildings since you usually need about five for units.
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Australia4514 Posts
For D level players there is not much you need to think about. Just do the basics well.
Steps 1-4 are the most important for all beginners.
1 - Load up a replay of yourself. Click on the nexus/CC (harder with Z - but click on hatchery and watch the larvae / minerals) and just watch the probe production. The nexus should never stop building. It should always have 1 queued. Particularly early -mid game. If you need to ask 'when do i stop building them' you aren't at the stage in skill to EVER stop!
2 - Hotkey buildings. more improtantly, hotkey Production buildings. and learn the unit production keys.
3 - Watch your mineral count. If it gets high, utilize step 1 and 2!
4 - Scout. i always scouted late, but i pretty much knew what most ppl would do. You do not. You must scout. Scouting provides information, and information provides counters to builds. So many people build canons, or build things just for the sake of doing it. Why waste lots of money building something you dont need? When you can build something you do need!
For beginners, just learn the 2-3 most common strats that your opponsition race uses. And scout for it. If you see 1 fact or 2, your basic build should switch over to a better counter. etc. The counter doesn't need to be 'huge' it just needs to take advantage of what you've learnt. If you see a 2nd upgrade going at a fact, you can expect vulture/mines soon! Get goons! etc etc
5 - When you get an advantage, expand.
6 - Learn early game builds. Late game doesn't matter, early game is where it counts. This used to mean a lot more until everyone became replay whores, but the point still stands.
7 - Macro well. this is all hotkeys, mineral expenditure, and expanding.
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Later on you will learn things like.
- Scouting also involves knowing when the army is moving out. Then utilize the terrain to attack them.
- Does it favour you to wait for them to move into open ground to attck, or move to high ground and keep them on the low ground.
- Expand to areas that help this, an expansion in a certain location might take longer to get up and running, but for them to attack it is a lot harder.
- Expand to other mains! Seriously why does noone do this. Especially when they have ramps. You can build a few gates up there, then for the entire game you can do flanking attacks, while purely defending all game. (DEFENSIVE fights almost always has an advantage - of course you can do defensive attacking as well...). Noone is going to attack up ramps vs an army half its size, while letting the other half army flank them (or attack a now undefended base). Thus you can macro and abuse the terrain!
************************************
Maybe more advanced thinking like -
- Is their starting position in the corner of the map (think 3 player maps like longinus with spots beign top left corner, mid right and bottom left.) Top left can only be 'attacked' from 1/4 of the total map area, while mid right can be attacked by 1/2. Thus if they are midright, harass is so much more powerful.
- What does your opponent know? What can you make him think? If he has a bigger army but you have more of the map, you may need to buy time, keep your army outside his base to make him scared, if he moves out (think pvt) keep attacking/retreating, seiging tanks takes a long time , and you can buy 2 lots of production cycles from your bases just by not even doing anything but making them think you are attacking.
- Buying time. One of my favourites. You may have sneaky expansions, but you have less units as a result. You know that if the game lasts just a bit longer you will have the same/more units while having more bases. But they are about to attack. So the key is to harass.
You see them get ready to move out. (ie they start buidling vults after massing tanks. you know in the next minute they will attack.) or if they start to move. Have a shuttle with a reaver waiting out of their vision, use it to attack when they move out. Or attack their expansion with some units. They will stop their attack and focus on defence, buying you time.
The important thing with these attacks is NOT to lose your 'attacking force' easily - remember, you are buying time, if they are about to be killed, run them to the corner. A few more seconds of them chasing your last 2 goons to the edge of the map and then having to retrace their steps can be critical. This is why i liked reaver drops so much, you kill a few units, run it away, then as they get ready to move out again, you drop it back in. You can hold them up for minutes.
The object is not to do critical damage (unless the opportunity arises) so you shouldn't do risky 'do or die' attacks on the mineral line defended by anti air stuff etcetc. If you can only attack a crappy building, then attack it! He will still be just as scared as if you have gone after the mineral line. (buying time is also for waiting for an upgrade to kick in etc)
- Do the map starting locations favour certain builds? Some have more open chokes, forcing them to do different openings. Thus you have better openigns to take advantage of it.
Tonnes more stuff.
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Australia4514 Posts
If you do steps 1 to 4, and KEEP doing it, you will become a C rank player.
Even for good players. Load up a rep of yourself and do step 1, i bet you dont do it perfect, i know i didn't.
These are all quite general thinking tips for improvement and can be applied across other games... sc2 comes to mind.
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wow thats really great
thanks a lot bro
just out of curiousity.. what rank (best rank) are you on iccup?
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is awesome32274 Posts
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CA10828 Posts
On August 03 2008 16:13 OMin wrote:
wow thats really great
thanks a lot bro
just out of curiousity.. what rank (best rank) are you on iccup?
lololol
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from D to C- in one season ;o, also some practise on hamachi, reading alot of guids, watching carefully every replay
note: D -> C- made on one map (tau cross), well its good in te beggining to learn one map and later progress to other
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great advice from a great player.
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Norway28665 Posts
haha leg I remember like 9+ years ago I was teaching assem and artosis
main thing I did was observe them play
every time either cc stopped blinking I typed
SCV
SCV
SCV
SCV
SCV
until it started
it was cool
also shauni, name 5 good players who don't hotkey buildings.. ;( I know gurram used to be one but I never heard of any others.
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On August 02 2008 05:02 intrigue wrote:
for me my improvement came in big jumps that happened randomly, usually for specific matchup. i'd be playing a ladder game and all of a sudden something would click, and i'd suddenly be drastically better than i was before. this happened about once every few months when i was active, which was probably 50-100 serious games each period (i'm not really a massgamer). between each leap in skill i'd plateau and stay around the same.
Recently I've been experiencing the same thing. I went on a 4 month break with absolutely no starcraft because I was at university. During that break I watched the games of the last stages of TSL which features Brat_OK in them because I loved watching a terran player play so well. All the Brat_OK games I watched were TvP too. Watching Brat_OK demolish his toss opponents made me think a bit about TvP and how to approach this matchup.
After my 4 month break I had an oppurtunity to play some bw at home. After not playing for so long (4 months away from sc is big for me lol) my rustyness was obvious in my mechanics. I had lost something like 50apm, was extremely clumsy with my clickying and hotkeys, and felt like I was playing twice as slow as before.
But the funny thing is, after 1 or 2 games I was playing TvP better than I have ever played it before. I was still playing slower than I normally would, but I had this weird clarity of mind and strange calm. It was like TvP had suddenly become so painfully obvious and I was wondering why I had not realised any of this before. Every click had a purpose, every move and every decision felt so effective. Controlling the gameflow was now an effortless task. My TvP was now easily my best matchup and not surprisingly I totally sucked in my other 2 matchups because I had not given them any thought while at uni.
I've also heard many times of other players playing far far better when they have just come back from a break. Maybe it's the subconcious thinking about starcraft while you're on your break, I dunno. You can easily get too 'stuck' in the game if you're mass gaming for example, and nothing seems to be happening and it feels like you're getting nowhere. Sometimes the best solution is to take a break as many people will say, and maybe watch one or two VODs of the matchup you're having difficulty with. The VODs give your mind some stimulus to work with while you're taking a break, and you might want to also spend some time reflecting more deeply than you normally would about your gameplay.
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I only hotkey my CC..
I use F3 to view my factories..
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On August 03 2008 16:13 OMin wrote:
wow thats really great
thanks a lot bro
just out of curiousity.. what rank (best rank) are you on iccup?
hahaha. try type his name into search on your left, or tlpd on your right and you tell us what you think his iccup rank is
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On August 03 2008 16:13 OMin wrote:
wow thats really great
thanks a lot bro
just out of curiousity.. what rank (best rank) are you on iccup?
You guys lolling really shouldn't expect everyone to be as knowledgeable of the scene as you are; especially when it comes to newer players.
Although I must admit it made for a good laugh, we still owe him a proper explanation.
 Legionnaire
One of few westerners to make it to Korea and become a progamer.
OT:
My best advice, when striving to become a better player, is to always opt for the standard macro oriented strategies. Use a build order that is universal, that players consider to be standard, i.e. common and safe.
Next step is to evaluate your implementation of this strategy. Watch the replay and constantly ask yourself (this is very similiar to Legionnaire's advice):
Where, in a concrete way, did I go wrong?
One of the most basic things for beginner players is the issue of worker production. Keep drilling it in until you get it right. What I personally noticed, the first 100-200 games or so, was basically that I could point out small/moderate mechanical mistakes in every single game within the first 2-5 minutes. I either forgot to build probes, missed the timing of a pylon, missed the timing/positioning of my forge (fast expansion), missed the timing of range upgrade, failed to scout in time/properly, failed to keep my scouting unit constantly moving when reaching an empty main, failed to keep my scout alive due to inattentiveness, failed to respond properly to an early pool (add 2 canons before forge), failed to notice the terran base i scouted had a perplexingly low SCV count (proxy barracks in the middle of the map). The list goes on and on. It will probably take you 500+ games just to clear out all the common mechanical errors normally made (in all the different match ups) within the first 5-6 minutes of gameplay.
The best way to truly learn these things, in my opinion, is to stick to a standard opening for each matchup. Stick to Fast expansion openings every game against zerg (if you're protoss). Stick to 1 fac/expo TvP. Stick to 1gate/assimilator/core openings PvP (if it's a ramped map). The point being: Play with the mind set of acquiring the skills necessary to being able to properly beat better opponents straight up in the future.
Every moron can 2gate. Anyone can 3hatch speedling break a FE:ing Protoss. Anyone can 2hatch hydra break a FE:ing protoss. Everyone can memorize a 2fac rush strategy.
The difference between the two above mentioned styles of play being that one of them actually requires you to learn how to adapt to your opponent's strategies. Don't get me wrong. Han bang (one-time) strategies are useful, but there's no point in doing them if you're in the process of wanting to learn how to become a better Starcraft player. Open aggressively all you want as you become a better player, but there's no point in doing it when you haven't gotten down the basic mechanics of the game.
The difference between a good player and bad player opening 2 fac is that one of them knows how and when to transition. He knows how to estimate how much damage he has inflicted and its future impact on the game. He knows how to best make use of this information, how to best proceed into mid and late game.
It will probably take you another batch of 500 games before you can respond reasonably well to every single opening thrown at you within the first 5 minutes.
Can I nexus before canon if my opponent 12 pools?
Why didn't I nexus before forge? 90% of zergs open 12hatch 11pool on this map.
Do I need to cut probes to cope with that 9 pool after i went forge/nexus?
I myself started out playing by a strict build order against each set race. Eventually I noticed the "Bisu build game 2 against Savior" actually didn't work out that well against everything. I watched my replays, watched other protoss players' replays, watched pro VODs always trying to get input as to how good/pro players handled such situations. How did stork respond to that 9 pool? How did Bisu respond to that 2hatch hydra break? Etc. etc..
Basically (how to improve):
1) Mechanics/memorize basic strategies/build orders
2) Adaptation to information
3) Game sense/timing
As you correct your early game mistakes and weed them out, new ones will arise for mid and late game. You have to perfect your mechanics first though before even thinking about things like game sense and timing. Your timing will never be right if you're still sloppy.
So take Legionnaire's crash course...
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On August 03 2008 19:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:
haha leg I remember like 9+ years ago I was teaching assem and artosis
main thing I did was observe them play
every time either cc stopped blinking I typed
SCV
SCV
SCV
SCV
SCV
until it started
it was cool
also shauni, name 5 good players who don't hotkey buildings.. ;( I know gurram used to be one but I never heard of any others.
I heard GiYoM didn't hotkey that many buildings.
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On August 03 2008 19:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:
haha leg I remember like 9+ years ago I was teaching assem and artosis
main thing I did was observe them play
every time either cc stopped blinking I typed
SCV
SCV
SCV
SCV
SCV
until it started
it was cool
Did you also teach NTT? ;p
As to the topic: I've noticed what a few other people have mentioned for my own improvement: it's sudden. As in, one day you're losing and then the next day you're winning in that same situation. It's like something just clicks and it becomes easier. Of course, this follows lots and lots of games where it didn't click, so it's not like it comes like manna from heaven or whatever.
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Just recently i went over many replays of my recent games to analyze them. I downloaded some of the new replays to analyze them, i open the folder and realize i missplaced them. In panic (not really) i decided to try and find other replays. I stumbled upon lots of old replays of my slow rise to my rank today. Going over my replays from first 1v1ing 11 months ago to 4 months ago where i broke 140 apm to now.. i had not realized how much i had improved.
Looking at every replay and then a replay about 1 month after that, im always doing little things different. There is basic core things like scouting, build orders and when to expand that you learn earlier but the little things that you do, like at the start rallying workers and moving to minerals so they don't pause and responding to things better... all the little things add up over time (like someone had said). I myself have not been much of a mass gamer, at times i had 1 game a day at best, then somedays i have 15 games vs a few friends, but no matter how many games you play, you have to understand what your doing (and doing wrong), what you require to do it and improve it and also knowledge and game sense. Ever since i got past d-, i was pretty much learning the game and the flow of it over macro ( also did that to avoid being called a noob macro P aswell haha). I watched many and i mean manny vods, from lots of recent ones, to replays, to old replays to learn the history etc, i did all that and i soaked the knowledge in. What i found out was when you know what your doing and what your goal is, the basic mechanics such as micro and macro come easier.
I used to fear going on iccup, playing 1-2 games a day like 2 days a week and then going offline. It felt weird gaming random people and i was worried about a record over improving. I got over that over time and currently game much more on iccup. My first iccup account i got 9-8 vs average people at D, the next i got 11-7 vs the same average people, and the last month i went on a 9-0 streak and am about 16-5 on iccup.
The point is mass/hardcore gaming is ofcourse good but you have to realize what your doing, what your mistakes are and how you can improve instead of just gaming and getting angry because your, say.. 2 gate pvp keeps losing or why your record isn't as good as your friends.
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i find it so difficult to improve without having somebody coach you in the right direction or to step you through a couple lessons whenever you hit trouble
i played so much this summer but i haven't gotten much better
Your problem is you're using strategies you don't understand. I honestly believe it's detrimental for new players to copy pro-strategies, because how are you supposed to know how to utilize them?
My advice is to make your own strategies, guess what will happen (be specific, like how your opponent might react, your contingency plan to his reaction...), then test it out and using your theory of how you expected the build to work out, you'll feel much more comfortable adapting it to the situation, because you know what was important for it to be a success, and you know what leeway you have when situations get sticky.
As a new player, expect to lose on any private server like iCCup. Play to win, but don't be discouraged by loses. Take things one step at a time, and focus on improving in game. Maybe you had better marine micro than you've ever had, maybe you pulled a gosu drone drill. Even if you end up losing those games, you know that you've improved, and you know what parts of your game still need improving. Make mental strategies to fix the holes in your game play... Do you always seem to end up with 1000 minerals? Tell yourself next time to build more unit producing buildings, or to not get so focused in an unimportant battle you forget macro.
There's always one thing you know you did wrong if you look hard enough; sometimes it's just your build, others it's your mechanics, and still others it's a critical decision gone awry. You really don't need a coach to tell you that. An experienced player can help tell you tips you never knew before, like how to stack mutalisks, hold lurkers, patrol drones, ctrl click, shift click, etc. But beyond that, the strategy is on you to understand.
I have two concrete ingame pieces of advice for anyone new to StarCraft. The first is to have confidence in your actions. That means if you tell a unit to move somewhere, trust that they'll go there, and don't bother watching them the whole time unless you have nothing else to do (which is never, because there's always something else to do). The second is to be like a tiger. Be aggressive. Take risks. Expand when you can barely defend it. Expand when you can't defend it, but you don't think your opponent will catch you. Harass as often as possible; make your opponent have to worry about where you'll come from next. Don't let up the pressure. Winning a game of StarCraft is about besting your opponent, not playing your own personal game. Don't forget that if you're simply toiling away in your base without checking up on your opponent, he can be doing anything he wants, up to and including infesting an observer's command centre, and planning to drop Infested Terrans on your probes. Play like you want to win, not like you want to survive as long as possible (an instruction I usually save for FMP human's vs comps players who miss the concept of competition in StarCraft entirely).
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On August 03 2008 16:13 OMin wrote:
wow thats really great
thanks a lot bro
just out of curiousity.. what rank (best rank) are you on iccup?
dude, Legionnaire competed in the WCG 2004 I think, where he got until to the round of 16 if I counted it right.
Given that, I'd say he's got the Olympic Ring thing, or at least A+, because I saw SteelHeart (A fellow Filipino who got owned bad by Hwasin after the group stages) and he had a B account.
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On August 03 2008 11:56 Legionnaire wrote:
For D level players there is not much you need to think about. Just do the basics well.
Steps 1-4 are the most important for all beginners.
1 - Load up a replay of yourself. Click on the nexus/CC (harder with Z - but click on hatchery and watch the larvae / minerals) and just watch the probe production. The nexus should never stop building. It should always have 1 queued. Particularly early -mid game. If you need to ask 'when do i stop building them' you aren't at the stage in skill to EVER stop!
2 - Hotkey buildings. more improtantly, hotkey Production buildings. and learn the unit production keys.
3 - Watch your mineral count. If it gets high, utilize step 1 and 2!
4 - Scout. i always scouted late, but i pretty much knew what most ppl would do. You do not. You must scout. Scouting provides information, and information provides counters to builds. So many people build canons, or build things just for the sake of doing it. Why waste lots of money building something you dont need? When you can build something you do need!
For beginners, just learn the 2-3 most common strats that your opponsition race uses. And scout for it. If you see 1 fact or 2, your basic build should switch over to a better counter. etc. The counter doesn't need to be 'huge' it just needs to take advantage of what you've learnt. If you see a 2nd upgrade going at a fact, you can expect vulture/mines soon! Get goons! etc etc
5 - When you get an advantage, expand.
6 - Learn early game builds. Late game doesn't matter, early game is where it counts. This used to mean a lot more until everyone became replay whores, but the point still stands.
7 - Macro well. this is all hotkeys, mineral expenditure, and expanding.
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Later on you will learn things like.
- Scouting also involves knowing when the army is moving out. Then utilize the terrain to attack them.
- Does it favour you to wait for them to move into open ground to attck, or move to high ground and keep them on the low ground.
- Expand to areas that help this, an expansion in a certain location might take longer to get up and running, but for them to attack it is a lot harder.
- Expand to other mains! Seriously why does noone do this. Especially when they have ramps. You can build a few gates up there, then for the entire game you can do flanking attacks, while purely defending all game. (DEFENSIVE fights almost always has an advantage - of course you can do defensive attacking as well...). Noone is going to attack up ramps vs an army half its size, while letting the other half army flank them (or attack a now undefended base). Thus you can macro and abuse the terrain!
************************************
Maybe more advanced thinking like -
- Is their starting position in the corner of the map (think 3 player maps like longinus with spots beign top left corner, mid right and bottom left.) Top left can only be 'attacked' from 1/4 of the total map area, while mid right can be attacked by 1/2. Thus if they are midright, harass is so much more powerful.
- What does your opponent know? What can you make him think? If he has a bigger army but you have more of the map, you may need to buy time, keep your army outside his base to make him scared, if he moves out (think pvt) keep attacking/retreating, seiging tanks takes a long time , and you can buy 2 lots of production cycles from your bases just by not even doing anything but making them think you are attacking.
- Buying time. One of my favourites. You may have sneaky expansions, but you have less units as a result. You know that if the game lasts just a bit longer you will have the same/more units while having more bases. But they are about to attack. So the key is to harass.
You see them get ready to move out. (ie they start buidling vults after massing tanks. you know in the next minute they will attack.) or if they start to move. Have a shuttle with a reaver waiting out of their vision, use it to attack when they move out. Or attack their expansion with some units. They will stop their attack and focus on defence, buying you time.
The important thing with these attacks is NOT to lose your 'attacking force' easily - remember, you are buying time, if they are about to be killed, run them to the corner. A few more seconds of them chasing your last 2 goons to the edge of the map and then having to retrace their steps can be critical. This is why i liked reaver drops so much, you kill a few units, run it away, then as they get ready to move out again, you drop it back in. You can hold them up for minutes.
The object is not to do critical damage (unless the opportunity arises) so you shouldn't do risky 'do or die' attacks on the mineral line defended by anti air stuff etcetc. If you can only attack a crappy building, then attack it! He will still be just as scared as if you have gone after the mineral line. (buying time is also for waiting for an upgrade to kick in etc)
- Do the map starting locations favour certain builds? Some have more open chokes, forcing them to do different openings. Thus you have better openigns to take advantage of it.
Tonnes more stuff.
wow thanks for replying, ill definitely use your advice as i continue to practice.
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On August 03 2008 11:56 Legionnaire wrote:
For D level players there is not much you need to think about. Just do the basics well.
Steps 1-4 are the most important for all beginners.
1 - Load up a replay of yourself. Click on the nexus/CC (harder with Z - but click on hatchery and watch the larvae / minerals) and just watch the probe production. The nexus should never stop building. It should always have 1 queued. Particularly early -mid game. If you need to ask 'when do i stop building them' you aren't at the stage in skill to EVER stop!
2 - Hotkey buildings. more improtantly, hotkey Production buildings. and learn the unit production keys.
3 - Watch your mineral count. If it gets high, utilize step 1 and 2!
4 - Scout. i always scouted late, but i pretty much knew what most ppl would do. You do not. You must scout. Scouting provides information, and information provides counters to builds. So many people build canons, or build things just for the sake of doing it. Why waste lots of money building something you dont need? When you can build something you do need!
For beginners, just learn the 2-3 most common strats that your opponsition race uses. And scout for it. If you see 1 fact or 2, your basic build should switch over to a better counter. etc. The counter doesn't need to be 'huge' it just needs to take advantage of what you've learnt. If you see a 2nd upgrade going at a fact, you can expect vulture/mines soon! Get goons! etc etc
Well, I think i have #1 and #3 ok. I know the unit production hotkeys but i don't hotkey buildings much. I play Terran btw. Should i keep my buildings hotkeyed until late or just early when its ultra important? How important is it to use control groups for units? Should I just set hotkeys right before a battle or what?
Control groups confuse me, I used to use them but they would get confused and i felt like I was wasting APM. I have a friend who is probably a C or C- who playes terran and doesnt use control groups at all.
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Im getting quite annoyed by trying to engage units and people just running.
What would be the tips for having a larger army but the person absolutely REFUSING to engage you, and you know you are in trouble if you allow them to just buy time.
I dont really know what to do, it pisses me off that I play terran and shit like this happens 24/7.
Also, how do you keep your units from getting stuck behind one another and not attacking, I get raped by mutas 24/7 because half of my shit stays back and doesnt attack.
The obvious answer is to spread my units but it doesnt seem to help, with the current map design it seems like my units just go into straight lines and i get fucked because only 1/2 my units attack.
Or why suddenly my marines decide to walk forward before attacking as opposed to just starting to shoot, what the fuck am I doing wrong? It becomes SUPER annoying when this happens vs zeal rushes and TvZ. Any ideas?
Sorry if I hijacked thread, but this could help more advanced players.
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D to C- was really easy for me, but going from C- to C+ is just some matchups. i cannot go beyond c with pvt. im fine with the other match ups, its one MU that makes me struggle. i think you just need to keep playing and refine yourself. then just keep playing and when you lose, analyze what you did wrong, etc.
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On August 04 2008 12:33 Raithed wrote:
D to C- was really easy for me
Protoss scum.
back on topic: I feel like im on the cusp of figuring enough of this game out to be D, maybe even D+. Last weekend I was winning about 1 in 3 iccup games, mostly at D level. I was thinking and multitasking and generally playing well, and running into some n00bs that I could beat
Then this week happened and I can't seem to win a real game. I lose every game except against gigantic n00bs that i just trample. Zergs absolutely destroy me. TvP is my best chance, but i can never keep them from getting 4+ bases and carriers or arbiters without suiciding my army in the process.
In the next few weeks or so hopefully i will start doing better again.
Something I've noticed is that studying and exploiting maps is very important. Knowing where you can cliff, drop, push or contain is really important for Terran. Im starting to get that you win battles not when you attack, but when you force your enemy to engage your entrenched army on your terms. Seiging an expo, Slow push contain, 4 base macro mode (to a point). Hiding in 2 base the whole game isn't gonna work. Neither is marching your army into their army without an important strategic purpose.
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i've probably played about 200 games now and i'm still only around 1500 rating.
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EPT
