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If you are located in South America or Europe you match with mostly each other on ladder. Playing same opponent over and over at times. Hardly ever matching with koreans. If ever matched with koreans (which is rarely 1 out of 10?) most games are dodged or are too laggy.
Pretty sure in all other regions everyone else is matching with koreans at least 9 out of 10 games or more.
So is someone in South America or Europe gaining MMR by not playing koreans the same MMR as all other regions who have to beat koreans to gain their MMR considered the same?
SImiliar scenario would be before remastered when you had fish server vs iccup. iccup full of mostly non koreans vs fish mostly all koreans. fish server was lot more difficult moving up ranks than iccup.
We can all agree that koreans skill level in the game of brood war exceeds foreigners overall in general.
I remember when dandy was so called hitting 2900. That aint happening if he had to beat koreans (pros and amateurs) to hit it. Only way possible was by dodging koreans because outside of korea not many could probably beat him and almost no one in his local region of South America is beating him.
WIth this being said what is true mmr?
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This feels like an old CPL meme from Strom.
But to your point, I do not believe at the general level it makes a big difference. I play about 90% + vs koreans at low B ranks (i m in NA) and they seem a tad stronger in some things (timings, worker micro) and weaker in others (creativity i d call it). My winrate vs similar MMR players from other regions in practice or in tournaments isnt significantly different, so I think, again for C/B that it is about even.
The higher you go the harder potentially it might be but also the pool of foreigners shrinks at the top so all regions would play koreans.
For the normal ranks (B and below), Koreans are not on average better, some are good, a lot are terrible, usually they play more game so you hit them closer to their "true" MMR than foreigners who don't have as much time and only have 20 games.
South America is a bit special with latency that being said, so for those yes it might be a factor.
There seems to be way more korean smurfs at low ranks though so it may have an impact at D, possibly.
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this is something you will largely notice in S rank with high level koreans leaving whenever turnrate isnt perfect. You can see there is some slight inflation sometimes with some top foreigners being gifted some free wins every now and then.
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Eh, you only get mostly EU players if you play at EU evenings and that's it.
Otherwise there just isn't enough players and you end up playing mostly vs KR. A lot of higher ranked people play private games instead of ladder which makes ladder matching even worse. Or if they do ladder, they do it off KR VPN so you don't primarily run into them, anyway.
There's likely some MMR inflation, but it is probably in 100-200 MMR tops.
Obviously you could maximize the inflation by playing at specific time if your goal was to maximize your MMR for some reason, but most people just play when they have time, without such considerations.
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It's the hour that you play at and also Koreans being picky with latency. There is only 1 ladder, but foreigners do have their own mmr since they play at different hours. True mmr doesn't really exist though. Foreigner peaks are low to mid S, simply because they do not get low latency games against Koreans and lack practice against the best.
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[QUOTE]On February 22 2024 02:29 Soulforged wrote:
Eh, you only get mostly EU players if you play at EU evenings and that's it.
Otherwise there just isn't enough players and you end up playing mostly vs KR.
wrong. past EU evenings become SA evening time so second option for europeans is south america then north america then korea in that order. so if no players in south america then north america then u end up getting koreans which is very rare (1 out of 10)
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I agree that playing Korean ladder is generally harder than Europe and SA, but the problem is if you're playing Koreans you're more likely to get free mmr due to them instant leaving. But how much it inflates or deflates your mmr? Totally on luck I suppose.
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On February 22 2024 03:03 rusty23456 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2024 02:29 Soulforged wrote:
Eh, you only get mostly EU players if you play at EU evenings and that's it.
Otherwise there just isn't enough players and you end up playing mostly vs KR.
wrong. past EU evenings become SA evening time so second option for europeans is south america then north america then korea in that order. so if no players in south america then north america then u end up getting koreans which is very rare (1 out of 10)
This is not how ladder works at all, Soulforged's experience matches that of most of my EU clanmates. It s very rare to hit SA anywhere outside of SA itself since the latency is terrible
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I mostly hit Terror or Dandy from SA, and that's usually happening when playing past 4am. And it isn't SA players only, it is an even mix between SA and KR.
If I play at 11am-6pm it is just KR only.
7pm-2am would mostly be EU players, but on a week day you'd be hitting plenty KR players even at this prime time.
Starting at like 11pm their proportion starts to increase a lot.
Below 2.2k-ish you're more likely to hit EU players for sure, but after that there just aren't enough players to consistently match on good latency, so it is giving you whoever.
There is an additional consideration that KR players have decent likelihood of just leaving, which generates some inflation, but like...if you got inflated 100-200 MMR on a running hot streak getting free wins, you're still coming down pretty fast if you continue playing.
I don't know how this works for SA players, perhaps they keep matching with themselves and are unable to play KR, but this is not the case for EU. Whether SA players use VPNs to play more KR players or not, is also a factor - plenty EU players do(it isn't necessary to run into KR, but it increases the likelihood and latency)
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This is not how ladder works at all, Soulforged's experience matches that of most of my EU clanmates. It s very rare to hit SA anywhere outside of SA itself since the latency is terrible
if this is the case for example, why does blackmanpl hit so many SA opponents second to EU opponents when he ladders
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He's both playing in 7pm-2am time region for the most part, and usually hovering around 2.2k, so that makes perfect sense.
Less of an issue higher or outside of that time period. If that's the kind of player you're examining, sure, there's some inflation there relative to KR player of an equivalent MMR, but like I said, it'd be in 100-200 region.
The main difference between EU and SA would be that top EU players play plenty vs KR. And by top EU players, I mean top 5 EU players (if you're going to bring up Dandy from SA, compare to an equivalent EU player, see where they peak at, and who they played for their last 200 MMR points on the rise).
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On February 22 2024 04:12 rusty23456 wrote:
This is not how ladder works at all, Soulforged's experience matches that of most of my EU clanmates. It s very rare to hit SA anywhere outside of SA itself since the latency is terrible
if this is the case for example, why does blackmanpl hit so many SA opponents second to EU opponents when he ladders
without any data it is basically just an educated guess but I d say it is isp related for his particular setup and access point and transport infrastructure.
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most of the top 5 EU use VPN for better latency and to play vs kors because without it, it takes too long to match with them if they ever do. I dont understand what you mean by you match with "plenty" of Kor without VPN. like i said if you ever do your queue time will be way too long
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if you mean me, the explanation is simple: I do not live in EU anymore ;p
For Soulforged, he detailed it well. It is time dependent (also ISP dependent).
I am not sure what the point of your thread is if you just ignore every reply. But if you are trying somehow to lead the point that tournament qualifications are not entirely fair using a ladder (BSL for instance) then yes I agree with you.
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without any data it is basically just an educated guess but I d say it is isp related for his particular setup and access point and transport infrastructure.
this applies to all EU players ive seen laddering around or under same MMR
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I dont understand what you mean by you match with "plenty" of Kor without VPN. like i said if you ever do your queue time will be way too long
Yes. And yes, queue times are way too long, 5-15min+ queues with a KR player at the end are not uncommon.
It is the main reason to move from ladder to private games or VPN.
So if ladder experience falls of a cliff at let's say 2.4k, it sure as hell isn't getting inflated to 2.9k by having only in-region opposition. When top EU players hit 2.7k region, they played mostly KR to reach that.
If we're talking about MMRs when queues are still short, yeah, there's going to be inflation in EU and even more so in SA.
Are 2.2k NA players also hitting 9/10 KR players? If yes, then yeah, they certainly would have less inflation even at those MMR's.
Edit: the bottom of e.g. BSL ladder qualifying range is regionally unfair, yes.
But as a player, what would you pick? Easier time qualifying a tournament, or ready available games against quality opponents all year long?
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Are 2.2k NA players also hitting 9/10 KR players? If yes, then yeah, they certainly would have less inflation even at those MMR's.
Not only is it NA but all other regions besides EU/SA
China, all of Asia, Australia, etc... from what ive seen, all match mostly with kors compared to EU/SA
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Then yeah, that doesn't happen in EU unless you start hitting long queue times. Much envy.
In EU, you can hit both SA and KR after a long queue, but obviously short queues are going to be in-region.
The KR proportion is not going to go 9/10 unless you are either really high or playing in KR prime time(aka middle of the day in EU, a long queue each time).
That said, for personal experience, KR feels like 100 MMR stronger than EU? + free win from instant leaves effect can mess things up in "lucky" streaks beyond that. A 2.2k Korean doesn't feel like a 2.4k EU player, but a 2.3k Korean probably does, at least in my experience.
Overall, the matchup feels distinctly more impactful than the opponent's region. (for me personally the favored/unfavored matchups feel around 200 MMR difference relative to the mirror, of course that's individual)
SA def feels more inflated than EU, NA def feels less inflated than EU.
Don't really get to play anyone in Australia/Asia/China, so cannot comment.
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I dont think this is accurate about the Europe region. I match koreans all the time without using vpn but instead of Turnrate 16 low or 24 high is 14 low or 20 high or 12 low. The biggest difference is matching then in 30-60 seconds using a vpn and 3-4 minutes not using it. I also remember matching way more People from USA and Canada compared to South America players.I find it odd since in my head there are way more starcraft players in South America ? You are making it sound like Europe match koreans very rare. Players living in Russia match more koreans than people living in USA and with better latency proly. When i watch Artosis stream he match koreans often and the most common turn rate for him is 10 low. I dont know if that is the case for most of US players but with such turn rate im more inclined to believe koreans are droping more free pts for them..
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On February 22 2024 07:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I dont think this is accurate about the Europe region. I match koreans all the time without using vpn but instead of Turnrate 16 low or 24 high is 14 low or 20 high or 12 low. The biggest difference is matching then in 30-60 seconds using a vpn and 3-4 minutes not using it. I also remember matching way more People from USA and Canada compared to South America players.I find it odd since in my head there are way more starcraft players in South America ? You are making it sound like Europe match koreans very rare. Players living in Russia match more koreans than people living in USA and with better latency proly. When i watch Artosis stream he match koreans often and the most common turn rate for him is 10 low. I dont know if that is the case for most of US players but with such turn rate im more inclined to believe koreans are droping more free pts for them..
But 100% mmr below 2200 Europe region and South America matches less koreans overall than any other regions (NA, all of Asia. Australia, etc...) i doubt Russians match more with koreans than USA. USA matches almost 100 percent with koreans depending on the time but still i doubt russians would match more. russians match more with more other europeans than koreans compared to USA
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also if u say europeans get koreans all the time. u can tell by the turn rate in game. if the game shows tr24 low for you in europe it is vs another european. If lower turn rate it is possibly most likely a south american or other country. Would u say if in europe u would get most of your games not at tr24 low and most games at tr14 and below?
USA and Canada almost never gets games at tr24 low because its mostly vs koreans.
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Would u say if in europe u would get most of your games not at tr24 low and most games at tr14 and below?
yeah
Overall I assume it is country/ISP specific, Europe can have large discrepancies. I'd expect NA on average to hit more KR players than EU, but specifics may vary.
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@eonzerg when u do ladder placement match from 0-0 new account stats. compare what players you match with VPN vs without VPN. WIth VPN you will match 5 out 5 with koreans. Without VPN you will by lucky to match 1 out 5 with koreans. WIll mostly likely be 5 out 5 europeans. This is the opposite for players outside EU/SA
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As others have already said it matters a lot when you play and at what MMR. If I play mornings/daytime EU I match mostly Koreans, normally I play most of my hours 22-04 CET and naturally match a lot more EU/Americas players. Through a lucky streak of koreans leaving and actually beating several 2300+ guys I once hit 2490+ and when I tanked that account back to 2300 I did it playing almost exclusively Koreans without using a VPN, while normally I match a lot of foreigners around 2k-2.3k. Also Koreans leaving seems to mainly be a thing at higher MMR, at A rank I feel most Koreans plays the game even though its TR16low or even worse, while people at 2400+ are way more likely to leave the game if its not 24low. So the higher MMR you get the more free wins you actually receive (which is another reason why ladder qualifications for tournaments is a bad format).
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suprised you can even get tr16 vs kor without VPN which makes me a bit sus. All things considered from bottom F ranks to top of ladder S ranks EU/SA gets matched with the least amount of koreans compared to all other regions
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On February 22 2024 11:57 rusty23456 wrote:
suprised you can even get tr16 vs kor without VPN which makes me a bit sus. All things considered from bottom F ranks to top of ladder S ranks EU/SA gets matched with the least amount of koreans compared to all other regions
Thats where the "or even worse" part comes from. I get everything from TR16low that is playable to unplayable extra high 12/10/8 games and everything in between. I also get a lot of TR16low where the game is just slow and we need to turn on high latency for it to go at normal speed.
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there is a reason why that whenever EU ever does match with koreans they have the longest queue times to match with them compared to all other regions. In NA for example, if matched with koreans it is instantly matched like under 5 seconds at times. EU can and will never match with koreans instantly under 5 seconds.
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No matter what time it is in EU, will never ever match with a kor in under 5 seconds
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the long queue time is showing that it is first searching for EU and if no EU opp then SA and other. If cannot find any then lastly it matches with kor. So kor is last priority for matchmaking.
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It's obvious you're either trolling, completely clueless or both, but fine, I'll take the bait.
For every korean that EU doesn't match when queue-ing, there's one korean that dodges an NA game. We play our game, win or lose mmr, while you guys just get the +30 instead. It doesn't take a genius to figure that NA players consistently get more than twice the free wins we do because of that (but thank god you guys aren't inflated from only playing SA/EU, right?). EU players don't get that many dodgers, because foreigners don't usually dodge for latency reasons (not to a relevant degree anyway).
If an EU player does get a large amount of free wins, that's likely because they're arledy rated considerably high enough on the ladder that the matchmaking system doesn't have anyone to match them against except koreans, and in that case your argument falls flat.
The point is, these things mostly even out somewhere in the middle, but this shouldn't concern you anyway, you haven't posted in years before waking up yesterday and deciding today is the day to chatcraft so I can understand why you had no idea about the points I made above.
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On February 22 2024 11:02 Oystein wrote:
As others have already said it matters a lot when you play and at what MMR. If I play mornings/daytime EU I match mostly Koreans, normally I play most of my hours 22-04 CET and naturally match a lot more EU/Americas players. Through a lucky streak of koreans leaving and actually beating several 2300+ guys I once hit 2490+ and when I tanked that account back to 2300 I did it playing almost exclusively Koreans without using a VPN, while normally I match a lot of foreigners around 2k-2.3k. Also Koreans leaving seems to mainly be a thing at higher MMR, at A rank I feel most Koreans plays the game even though its TR16low or even worse, while people at 2400+ are way more likely to leave the game if its not 24low. So the higher MMR you get the more free wins you actually receive (which is another reason why ladder qualifications for tournaments is a bad format).
observed the exact same thing you detail here. Low S rank you are unlikely to get inflation from leaves or from Beating europeans. But it can happen. It is how Artosis got his 2300 or 2400 mmr one time. Once you reach Mid S rank you suddenly get a lot more top level koreans who just want good turnrates and dont care about losing mmr because they are good enough to easily get it back in good TR games. If you look at match history of some top amateurs or pros, they often leaves four to five games in a row to avoid bad turnrates.
If you want to extrapolate true mmr, track who the top foreigners are winning against and losing to, and which MMr they usually hang around. for example absolute tends to win against Dewalt, so Absolute would be higher than Dewalt. If you can somehow track individual stats against players you can extrapolate a rough true mmr
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On February 22 2024 12:42 rusty23456 wrote:
the long queue time is showing that it is first searching for EU and if no EU opp then SA and other. If cannot find any then lastly it matches with kor. So kor is last priority for matchmaking.
rusty23456: Here is my theory.
EU player: Eh, not entirely true in my experience.
rusty23456: Here is my theory.
Another EU player: Well, there are caveats, time considerations, etc.
rusty23456: Here is my theory.
Yet another EU player: Based on my games, this isn't true.
rusty23456: Here is my theory, except this time split up between three consecutive posts.
Ad nauseam.
Something tells me that you came in here already 100% convinced that what you believe is true, regardless of how many people disagree with you or what arguments they present. If so, then why waste your time making a thread and writing all these posts? Just felt a little spicy today, wanted to ruffle some feathers?
![[image loading]](https://thoughtcatalog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/a-flowchart-to-help-you-determine-if-yoursquore-having-a-rational-discussion.jpg)
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I'm not sold on the idea that matchmaking eventually makes you play most people at times, I think there's a hard region lock, mainly because over many years there are many many south americans that I have not matched even once, I play mostly vs KR. Just by chance I should be matching other people of the same mmr that are playing near my region, but I simply do not. In fact the game seems to prefer matching me 3 times in a row vs a korean on TR8 extra high rather than anyone else on the ladder.
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On February 22 2024 18:11 WorsT21 wrote:
It's obvious you're either trolling, completely clueless or both, but fine, I'll take the bait.
For every korean that EU doesn't match when queue-ing, there's one korean that dodges an NA game. We play our game, win or lose mmr, while you guys just get the +30 instead. It doesn't take a genius to figure that NA players consistently get more than twice the free wins we do because of that (but thank god you guys aren't inflated from only playing SA/EU, right?). EU players don't get that many dodgers, because foreigners don't usually dodge for latency reasons (not to a relevant degree anyway).
If an EU player does get a large amount of free wins, that's likely because they're arledy rated considerably high enough on the ladder that the matchmaking system doesn't have anyone to match them against except koreans, and in that case your argument falls flat.
The point is, these things mostly even out somewhere in the middle, but this shouldn't concern you anyway, you haven't posted in years before waking up yesterday and deciding today is the day to chatcraft so I can understand why you had no idea about the points I made above.
I think we can all agree that past 2300++, everyone starts matching with koreans and players get free pts because koreans at this level don't wanna play anything less than tr 24 low which is why you see dandy at like 2900. Is he 2900? Nope because thats the mmr where even likes of soma/hero struggle to win. They hover at around 2500-2700 and if dandy is 2900 that's a big joke
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On February 23 2024 00:07 LG)Sabbath wrote:
I'm not sold on the idea that matchmaking eventually makes you play most people at times, I think there's a hard region lock, mainly because over many years there are many many south americans that I have not matched even once, I play mostly vs KR. Just by chance I should be matching other people of the same mmr that are playing near my region, but I simply do not. In fact the game seems to prefer matching me 3 times in a row vs a korean on TR8 extra high rather than anyone else on the ladder.
Match making algorithm prioritizes MMR and then connectivity. If two locations are directly connected through a singular deep sea cable, and then high quality land net cables, you will have good connectivity even if you're on the other side of the world. But if you for example want to connect to Peru from Poland, you first connect to Amsterdam through a land cable. Then you connect to The Hague through land cable, then you connect to the deep sea cable which goes directly to Brasil. From Brasil to Peru you have just low quality land cables. That's just one possibility. Look at the map and you'll find that Matchmaking is heavily reliant on the physical medium that channels the connection. Also note that all of South America has NO direct Sea cable going to Asia. It goes to North America first, which then goes to Japan, and from japan another set of cables goes to Korea. Also note that there's massive Data centers inbetween each of these mediums.
+ Show Spoiler +
Also keep in mind Blizzard has squashed the entire MMR system since the first season. MMR used to go way over 3000 for the entire top part of S rank. Now it has all been squashed down to where S rank barely goes over 2600 in the top 10. Pros easily get 2500-2700 if they put some effort into it. top Amateurs get anywhere from 2400 to 2600 depending on their streaks.
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Does rusty23456 have first-hand experience from playing NA S rank ladder, or is this entire thread just based on their perception of how the ladder works at that MMR?
Seems like the latter to me.
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yeah it is super unclear if facing less koreans is an upside when we don't really know how many koreans are free points due to leaving because of bad TR..
could very well be that facing (not playing ofc!) koreans is an upside on ladder for individual mmr in the grand scheme of things..
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could be one of the biggest bait threads in a while
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On February 22 2024 18:11 WorsT21 wrote:
It's obvious you're either trolling, completely clueless or both, but fine, I'll take the bait.
For every korean that EU doesn't match when queue-ing, there's one korean that dodges an NA game. We play our game, win or lose mmr, while you guys just get the +30 instead. It doesn't take a genius to figure that NA players consistently get more than twice the free wins we do because of that (but thank god you guys aren't inflated from only playing SA/EU, right?). EU players don't get that many dodgers, because foreigners don't usually dodge for latency reasons (not to a relevant degree anyway).
If an EU player does get a large amount of free wins, that's likely because they're arledy rated considerably high enough on the ladder that the matchmaking system doesn't have anyone to match them against except koreans, and in that case your argument falls flat.
The point is, these things mostly even out somewhere in the middle, but this shouldn't concern you anyway, you haven't posted in years before waking up yesterday and deciding today is the day to chatcraft so I can understand why you had no idea about the points I made above.
So first off you agree to the fact that EU hits less koreans on ladder as well as overall play less koreans compared to NA (but its not only NA, other regions Australia,China, etc...). Your are saying that mmr just balances out by koreans leaving due to latency. The latency isn't as bad as you would assume and koreans play it out enough. EU vs EU good latency has a fair share of games left due to mirror matchups MMR diffrences as well.
I mean above 2200 mmr, mmr differences may be less of a case however this is definitely the case below 2200 mmr.
The lower the MMR the more of a factor this becomes. At the mid point of 1900 ish MMR for example, there is a substantial skill gap between a 1900 MMR korean vs a 1900 MMR EU. A 1900 MMR EU vs 1900 MMR EU ladder game is NOT played at the same skill level as a 1900 MMR korean vs 1900 MMR korean ladder game, If you think otherwise i suggest u get yourself a VPN to korea and test it out yourself before you come to your conclusion.
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On February 23 2024 00:07 LG)Sabbath wrote:
I'm not sold on the idea that matchmaking eventually makes you play most people at times, I think there's a hard region lock, mainly because over many years there are many many south americans that I have not matched even once, I play mostly vs KR. Just by chance I should be matching other people of the same mmr that are playing near my region, but I simply do not. In fact the game seems to prefer matching me 3 times in a row vs a korean on TR8 extra high rather than anyone else on the ladder.
As a sample i just checked couple of your most recent accounts you are based in SA.
Around last 10 games or so
ACCOUNT : ZAELOT
1. Ra-mss - unknown
2. freeStar[GCN] - korea
3. zYojuan -peru
4. IIIIIlIllII - peru
5. LeaSt - usa
6. Rkd_Joe- peru
7.yatchmaster - peru
8. IllIIIllIlIII - finland
9. 432434242343424- peru
10. K-Hub_Port - unknown
11. JangKaYouSul - korea
12. JangKaYouSul - korea
13. suarez - uruguay
ACCOUNT : GRankZerg
1. EzOk - russia
2. aaaaaaaaaav - korea
3. dM-Zasz - costa rica
4. Samwiseee - usa
5. mackerel. - korea
6. x2v2m - croatia
7. Shadow)Drunken - argentina
8, Shadow)Drunken - argentina
9. BM]akrangel - peru
10. 090807'6'5'4'3 - unknown
11. HSP1112 - brazil
Just by chance I should be matching other people of the same mmr that are playing near my region, but I simply do not
Data shows you match mostly with people near your region of South America
I play mostly vs KR.
You should make sure you check your data before you assume u play vs MOSTLY vs kr. As you can see you DO NOT mostly vs. koreans.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/T1JUwSk.jpeg)
