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If you are located in South America or Europe you match with mostly each other on ladder. Playing same opponent over and over at times. Hardly ever matching with koreans. If ever matched with koreans (which is rarely 1 out of 10?) most games are dodged or are too laggy.
Pretty sure in all other regions everyone else is matching with koreans at least 9 out of 10 games or more.
So is someone in South America or Europe gaining MMR by not playing koreans the same MMR as all other regions who have to beat koreans to gain their MMR considered the same?
SImiliar scenario would be before remastered when you had fish server vs iccup. iccup full of mostly non koreans vs fish mostly all koreans. fish server was lot more difficult moving up ranks than iccup.
We can all agree that koreans skill level in the game of brood war exceeds foreigners overall in general.
I remember when dandy was so called hitting 2900. That aint happening if he had to beat koreans (pros and amateurs) to hit it. Only way possible was by dodging koreans because outside of korea not many could probably beat him and almost no one in his local region of South America is beating him.
WIth this being said what is true mmr?
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This feels like an old CPL meme from Strom.
But to your point, I do not believe at the general level it makes a big difference. I play about 90% + vs koreans at low B ranks (i m in NA) and they seem a tad stronger in some things (timings, worker micro) and weaker in others (creativity i d call it). My winrate vs similar MMR players from other regions in practice or in tournaments isnt significantly different, so I think, again for C/B that it is about even.
The higher you go the harder potentially it might be but also the pool of foreigners shrinks at the top so all regions would play koreans.
For the normal ranks (B and below), Koreans are not on average better, some are good, a lot are terrible, usually they play more game so you hit them closer to their "true" MMR than foreigners who don't have as much time and only have 20 games.
South America is a bit special with latency that being said, so for those yes it might be a factor.
There seems to be way more korean smurfs at low ranks though so it may have an impact at D, possibly.
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this is something you will largely notice in S rank with high level koreans leaving whenever turnrate isnt perfect. You can see there is some slight inflation sometimes with some top foreigners being gifted some free wins every now and then.
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Eh, you only get mostly EU players if you play at EU evenings and that's it.
Otherwise there just isn't enough players and you end up playing mostly vs KR. A lot of higher ranked people play private games instead of ladder which makes ladder matching even worse. Or if they do ladder, they do it off KR VPN so you don't primarily run into them, anyway.
There's likely some MMR inflation, but it is probably in 100-200 MMR tops.
Obviously you could maximize the inflation by playing at specific time if your goal was to maximize your MMR for some reason, but most people just play when they have time, without such considerations.
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It's the hour that you play at and also Koreans being picky with latency. There is only 1 ladder, but foreigners do have their own mmr since they play at different hours. True mmr doesn't really exist though. Foreigner peaks are low to mid S, simply because they do not get low latency games against Koreans and lack practice against the best.
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[QUOTE]On February 22 2024 02:29 Soulforged wrote:
Eh, you only get mostly EU players if you play at EU evenings and that's it.
Otherwise there just isn't enough players and you end up playing mostly vs KR.
wrong. past EU evenings become SA evening time so second option for europeans is south america then north america then korea in that order. so if no players in south america then north america then u end up getting koreans which is very rare (1 out of 10)
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I agree that playing Korean ladder is generally harder than Europe and SA, but the problem is if you're playing Koreans you're more likely to get free mmr due to them instant leaving. But how much it inflates or deflates your mmr? Totally on luck I suppose.
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On February 22 2024 03:03 rusty23456 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2024 02:29 Soulforged wrote:
Eh, you only get mostly EU players if you play at EU evenings and that's it.
Otherwise there just isn't enough players and you end up playing mostly vs KR.
wrong. past EU evenings become SA evening time so second option for europeans is south america then north america then korea in that order. so if no players in south america then north america then u end up getting koreans which is very rare (1 out of 10)
This is not how ladder works at all, Soulforged's experience matches that of most of my EU clanmates. It s very rare to hit SA anywhere outside of SA itself since the latency is terrible
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I mostly hit Terror or Dandy from SA, and that's usually happening when playing past 4am. And it isn't SA players only, it is an even mix between SA and KR.
If I play at 11am-6pm it is just KR only.
7pm-2am would mostly be EU players, but on a week day you'd be hitting plenty KR players even at this prime time.
Starting at like 11pm their proportion starts to increase a lot.
Below 2.2k-ish you're more likely to hit EU players for sure, but after that there just aren't enough players to consistently match on good latency, so it is giving you whoever.
There is an additional consideration that KR players have decent likelihood of just leaving, which generates some inflation, but like...if you got inflated 100-200 MMR on a running hot streak getting free wins, you're still coming down pretty fast if you continue playing.
I don't know how this works for SA players, perhaps they keep matching with themselves and are unable to play KR, but this is not the case for EU. Whether SA players use VPNs to play more KR players or not, is also a factor - plenty EU players do(it isn't necessary to run into KR, but it increases the likelihood and latency)
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This is not how ladder works at all, Soulforged's experience matches that of most of my EU clanmates. It s very rare to hit SA anywhere outside of SA itself since the latency is terrible
if this is the case for example, why does blackmanpl hit so many SA opponents second to EU opponents when he ladders
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He's both playing in 7pm-2am time region for the most part, and usually hovering around 2.2k, so that makes perfect sense.
Less of an issue higher or outside of that time period. If that's the kind of player you're examining, sure, there's some inflation there relative to KR player of an equivalent MMR, but like I said, it'd be in 100-200 region.
The main difference between EU and SA would be that top EU players play plenty vs KR. And by top EU players, I mean top 5 EU players (if you're going to bring up Dandy from SA, compare to an equivalent EU player, see where they peak at, and who they played for their last 200 MMR points on the rise).
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On February 22 2024 04:12 rusty23456 wrote:
This is not how ladder works at all, Soulforged's experience matches that of most of my EU clanmates. It s very rare to hit SA anywhere outside of SA itself since the latency is terrible
if this is the case for example, why does blackmanpl hit so many SA opponents second to EU opponents when he ladders
without any data it is basically just an educated guess but I d say it is isp related for his particular setup and access point and transport infrastructure.
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most of the top 5 EU use VPN for better latency and to play vs kors because without it, it takes too long to match with them if they ever do. I dont understand what you mean by you match with "plenty" of Kor without VPN. like i said if you ever do your queue time will be way too long
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if you mean me, the explanation is simple: I do not live in EU anymore ;p
For Soulforged, he detailed it well. It is time dependent (also ISP dependent).
I am not sure what the point of your thread is if you just ignore every reply. But if you are trying somehow to lead the point that tournament qualifications are not entirely fair using a ladder (BSL for instance) then yes I agree with you.
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without any data it is basically just an educated guess but I d say it is isp related for his particular setup and access point and transport infrastructure.
this applies to all EU players ive seen laddering around or under same MMR
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I dont understand what you mean by you match with "plenty" of Kor without VPN. like i said if you ever do your queue time will be way too long
Yes. And yes, queue times are way too long, 5-15min+ queues with a KR player at the end are not uncommon.
It is the main reason to move from ladder to private games or VPN.
So if ladder experience falls of a cliff at let's say 2.4k, it sure as hell isn't getting inflated to 2.9k by having only in-region opposition. When top EU players hit 2.7k region, they played mostly KR to reach that.
If we're talking about MMRs when queues are still short, yeah, there's going to be inflation in EU and even more so in SA.
Are 2.2k NA players also hitting 9/10 KR players? If yes, then yeah, they certainly would have less inflation even at those MMR's.
Edit: the bottom of e.g. BSL ladder qualifying range is regionally unfair, yes.
But as a player, what would you pick? Easier time qualifying a tournament, or ready available games against quality opponents all year long?
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Are 2.2k NA players also hitting 9/10 KR players? If yes, then yeah, they certainly would have less inflation even at those MMR's.
Not only is it NA but all other regions besides EU/SA
China, all of Asia, Australia, etc... from what ive seen, all match mostly with kors compared to EU/SA
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Then yeah, that doesn't happen in EU unless you start hitting long queue times. Much envy.
In EU, you can hit both SA and KR after a long queue, but obviously short queues are going to be in-region.
The KR proportion is not going to go 9/10 unless you are either really high or playing in KR prime time(aka middle of the day in EU, a long queue each time).
That said, for personal experience, KR feels like 100 MMR stronger than EU? + free win from instant leaves effect can mess things up in "lucky" streaks beyond that. A 2.2k Korean doesn't feel like a 2.4k EU player, but a 2.3k Korean probably does, at least in my experience.
Overall, the matchup feels distinctly more impactful than the opponent's region. (for me personally the favored/unfavored matchups feel around 200 MMR difference relative to the mirror, of course that's individual)
SA def feels more inflated than EU, NA def feels less inflated than EU.
Don't really get to play anyone in Australia/Asia/China, so cannot comment.
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I dont think this is accurate about the Europe region. I match koreans all the time without using vpn but instead of Turnrate 16 low or 24 high is 14 low or 20 high or 12 low. The biggest difference is matching then in 30-60 seconds using a vpn and 3-4 minutes not using it. I also remember matching way more People from USA and Canada compared to South America players.I find it odd since in my head there are way more starcraft players in South America ? You are making it sound like Europe match koreans very rare. Players living in Russia match more koreans than people living in USA and with better latency proly. When i watch Artosis stream he match koreans often and the most common turn rate for him is 10 low. I dont know if that is the case for most of US players but with such turn rate im more inclined to believe koreans are droping more free pts for them..
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On February 22 2024 07:09 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I dont think this is accurate about the Europe region. I match koreans all the time without using vpn but instead of Turnrate 16 low or 24 high is 14 low or 20 high or 12 low. The biggest difference is matching then in 30-60 seconds using a vpn and 3-4 minutes not using it. I also remember matching way more People from USA and Canada compared to South America players.I find it odd since in my head there are way more starcraft players in South America ? You are making it sound like Europe match koreans very rare. Players living in Russia match more koreans than people living in USA and with better latency proly. When i watch Artosis stream he match koreans often and the most common turn rate for him is 10 low. I dont know if that is the case for most of US players but with such turn rate im more inclined to believe koreans are droping more free pts for them..
But 100% mmr below 2200 Europe region and South America matches less koreans overall than any other regions (NA, all of Asia. Australia, etc...) i doubt Russians match more with koreans than USA. USA matches almost 100 percent with koreans depending on the time but still i doubt russians would match more. russians match more with more other europeans than koreans compared to USA
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EPT
