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ASL vs FlaSh

Forum Index > BW General
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1 2 Next All
MineraIs
Profile Joined September 2020
United States846 Posts
January 17 2023 02:28 GMT
#1
✯ [ twitch.tv/MrMineraIs ] ✯ [ Check out my Maps: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/612442-official-maps-by-minerals ] ✯
Akio
Profile Blog Joined January 2019
Finland1838 Posts
January 17 2023 16:14 GMT
#2
Saw this on Arty's twitter, I think it was well-made! Aside from the guy saying "Brood Wars"
Mine gas, build tanks.
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2267 Posts
January 17 2023 21:41 GMT
#3
yet nobody talks about OSL trying to make BoxeR win his golden mouse.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
Sigrun
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1654 Posts
January 17 2023 23:17 GMT
#4
Don't map makers always do this when one player/race is dominating? I remember Savior getting shit awful Zerg maps during his OSL run.
Graphics
butchji
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany1531 Posts
January 18 2023 23:06 GMT
#5
Shouldn't his military service be done by now? :x When will God return?
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4187 Posts
January 19 2023 09:35 GMT
#6
On January 18 2023 08:17 Sigrun wrote:
Don't map makers always do this when one player/race is dominating? I remember Savior getting shit awful Zerg maps during his OSL run.

yes

BW's balance is mostly done with maps

been like this for years and years
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4126 Posts
January 21 2023 01:37 GMT
#7
On January 18 2023 08:17 Sigrun wrote:
Don't map makers always do this when one player/race is dominating? I remember Savior getting shit awful Zerg maps during his OSL run.


Yes but only slightly, ASL did it to the extreme that season with anti-Terran maps. Sparkle, Third World, Transistor, Gladiator were all bad for Terran.
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
January 21 2023 04:14 GMT
#8
Was Sparkle actually bad for TvP? Flash appeared to have solved that matchup on that map.
May the BeSt man win.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-21 04:38:19
January 21 2023 04:31 GMT
#9
Just because Flash managed to 'solve' a disadvantageous map doesn't mean he has 'solved' the deck stacked against him. The more time and energy spent 'solving' those difficult maps means losing time and energy to polish his practice on other standard maps. That's why Flash has sometimes won games on disadvantageous maps yet lost games on standard maps in a long series against a top Protoss or Zerg. People often incorrectly conclude from this to mean that the map-pool is balanced. But that's not necessarily true because the entire prep for the series need to be factored in and not just maps in isolation.

Also, during match day itself, the extra effort to win on a disadvantageous map will invariably take a toll on a player's performance in later games in the series. Imbalanced maps can affect a player's performance in an entire series and not just on games played on those maps alone.
gg no re thx
Avi-Love
Profile Joined November 2003
Denmark423 Posts
January 21 2023 06:17 GMT
#10
In general people seem to be very uninformed when it comes to Sparkle and balance, I can only assume it is due to watching one or two games only and/or listening to certain incredibly biased commentators. The sample size is obviously not large, but it's the best we have.

[image loading]
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2665 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-21 07:29:02
January 21 2023 07:24 GMT
#11
According to sponbbang:

- Sparkle: TvP 60.4% (255 games), TvZ 48% (373 games), Total 53% (628 games)
- Third World: TvP 48.9% (237 games), TvZ 68.5% (143 games), Total 60.8% (380 games)
- Transistor: TvP 42.9% (352 games), TvZ 50.3% (567 games), Total 47.4% (919 games)
- Gladiator: TvP 49% (878 games), TvZ 53.8% (1221games), Total 51.8% (2099 games)

Doesn't look too bad.

Meanwhile, the win rate of Terran on the de facto standard maps: Polypoid 54.8%, Vermeer 57% (lol), Sylphid 54.9%.

Maps which are actually balanced based on win rate: FS 50.6%, Eclipse 51.1%, Butter 50.2%.

You can see a pattern here:
- maps where Terran dominates (most maps actually) are considered standard, balanced
- maps where Terran have a 50/50 chance of winning, are considered slightly disadvantageous
- maps where one of the match-ups drops down under 50% for Terran, are considered extremely disadvantageous

Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-21 07:46:47
January 21 2023 07:44 GMT
#12
TMNT: You may be right, although if Flash’s games account for a high proportion of one’s sample, then I could see the argument that a map with 50-50 results is unfavorable for Terran. (I am not actually trying to contradict you, since I don’t know what proportion of the games you’re referencing were Flash games, but it’s an interesting wrinkle.) I think the best data for evaluating map balance would be games played by players ranked ~#5–10 within their own race, but I don’t know if anyone has ever spent the time to curate that information.

Re:Sparkle — My take is that the organizers wanted it to be unfavorable for Terran and they just messed up. Balance is hard to predict.

Third World had incredible games.
May the BeSt man win.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2665 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-21 08:08:19
January 21 2023 08:06 GMT
#13
On January 21 2023 16:44 Djabanete wrote:
TMNT: You may be right, although if Flash’s games account for a high proportion of one’s sample, then I could see the argument that a map with 50-50 results is unfavorable for Terran. (I am not actually trying to contradict you, since I don’t know what proportion of the games you’re referencing were Flash games, but it’s an interesting wrinkle.) I think the best data for evaluating map balance would be games played by players ranked ~#5–10 within their own race, but I don’t know if anyone has ever spent the time to curate that information.

Re:Sparkle — My take is that the organizers wanted it to be unfavorable for Terran and they just messed up. Balance is hard to predict.

Third World had incredible games.

I see this argument a lot (Flash skewing the win rate), but every time I checked, it really wasn't the case.

Sponbbang allows you to filter record by date, so if we look at the stats from July 2021 to now when he's been away, the win rates for Terran are:
- Polypoid 55.4%, Vermeer 56.3%, Sylphid 53.9%
- FS 51.%, Eclipse 51.5%, Butter 50.2%

So no difference at all. Also Vermeer and Butter were created after Flash went to the military (there's a slight difference for Vermeer probably due to the sources I took - the previous one is from eloboard).

It really is basic statistics. He has to play like, a number of games equal to every other Terrans combined to have any sort of influence on the whole race win rate.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10006 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-21 22:41:38
January 21 2023 11:39 GMT
#14
Transistor was def insane for TvP, it's the best modern PvT map ever made (funny enough Flash beat Snow on it with a mindgame 2 fact tank push, that was lucky tho).

Sparkle ended up being T favored once T's figured out how to play it optimally (early exp into wraith contain style while mass exping/taking map control, Snow tried to mindgame this b.o with an early DT drop which ended up doing a ton of damage.. but he still lost), it happened towards the end of the season. That said i still don't think the map was explored enough, that's why it's the best map ever made kek.

3rd World was kinda hard cus T was forced to go 2 base 2-1 pretty much every game cus it's a carrier map. That b.o is pretty versatile tho so the stats were about 50/50. It made for super boring games tho, terrible map overall.

But ya obv Terran is broken in the hands of a godly optimizer/mechanics player w/ great decision making like Flash. Tours have to figure out how to keep things spicy, which is doable with maps. It def makes life hard for other pro T players because they're nowhere close to his lvl (RoyaL has that potential tho). If you get super bots to play each race to their maximum ability/efficiency Z would be the best, but with human limitations it's T.
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-21 12:06:32
January 21 2023 11:54 GMT
#15
Map imbalance is not just about raw numbers of win probability and actual win rates. But also in a qualitative sense - a map that forces a race to play with a limited build and style (while the other race has a wider repertoire of options or limited but more easily executable builds).

For example, let's say a super small 1v1 map which doesn't allow for any macro play. Flash may still have a higher chance of winning with early game builds against most opponents due to superior mechanics and star sense. But the chance is still lower than a standard map where he can both outplay opponents in early game and long macro game (which is actually where he really shines above all other players).

gg no re thx
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-21 17:01:04
January 21 2023 17:00 GMT
#16
On January 21 2023 20:54 RKC wrote:
Map imbalance is not just about raw numbers of win probability and actual win rates. But also in a qualitative sense - a map that forces a race to play with a limited build and style (while the other race has a wider repertoire of options or limited but more easily executable builds).

For example, let's say a super small 1v1 map which doesn't allow for any macro play. Flash may still have a higher chance of winning with early game builds against most opponents due to superior mechanics and star sense. But the chance is still lower than a standard map where he can both outplay opponents in early game and long macro game (which is actually where he really shines above all other players).


Probably not a good example. It's actually pretty hard to make a "super small map" (something like PA) that is not heavily Terran favoured, because it's either gonna have very few expansions, which will favour Terran due to lack of P/Z's ability to out-expand them, leading to relative fast and easy even map split situations in many games, which ultimately are heavily in Terran's favour, or it will have a high density of expansions with small distances in between, which again favours the less mobile, more area-defence reliant race.
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2665 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-21 17:49:56
January 21 2023 17:49 GMT
#17
On January 21 2023 20:54 RKC wrote:
Map imbalance is not just about raw numbers of win probability and actual win rates. But also in a qualitative sense - a map that forces a race to play with a limited build and style (while the other race has a wider repertoire of options or limited but more easily executable builds).

For example, let's say a super small 1v1 map which doesn't allow for any macro play. Flash may still have a higher chance of winning with early game builds against most opponents due to superior mechanics and star sense. But the chance is still lower than a standard map where he can both outplay opponents in early game and long macro game (which is actually where he really shines above all other players).


I agree that map balance also has to be judged from a qualitative sense. Like, you can look at the "natural expansion" on Transistor and see it's horrible for TvP or TvZ (I'm actually surprised that TvZ is 50% for this map given the areas Muta can abuse - maybe someone can explain this?)

But I don't think limiting a race's build or style on a given map can be considered disadvantageous to them, as long as they're still winning it. I mean, the gameplay itself already forces you to do so. Terran has to go mech in TvP, Protoss has to build Corsair in PvZ, Zerg has to build Muta in ZvT,...

On the other hand, wider repertoire for the other race doesn't mean they have a better chance of winning the matchup. Take PvT for example. "Protoss can do anything", a great man once said - while Terran can't do anything until they take a 3rd. Now if we create a map where Protoss can only go Carrier but consistently has 55% win rate over Terran, while Terran has the option to go bio, would you say Protoss is at a disadvantage?


Eywa-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada4876 Posts
January 22 2023 19:49 GMT
#18
On January 21 2023 20:54 RKC wrote:
Map imbalance is not just about raw numbers of win probability and actual win rates. But also in a qualitative sense - a map that forces a race to play with a limited build and style (while the other race has a wider repertoire of options or limited but more easily executable builds).

For example, let's say a super small 1v1 map which doesn't allow for any macro play. Flash may still have a higher chance of winning with early game builds against most opponents due to superior mechanics and star sense. But the chance is still lower than a standard map where he can both outplay opponents in early game and long macro game (which is actually where he really shines above all other players).



Map balance is purely about statistics, any argument that the overall win rate doesn't accurately reflect map balance should be backed with statistics.

A map that has a 50/50 win rate, but one race can only do 1 build is equally balanced as a map where any build is viable, but the win rate is 50/50. If Light wins 50% on a map that he can only do 1 rush build, and 50% on a map where he can do any build, which map is he most likely to win a game on? The assumption that more choice means a player has better control over their win rate is a common gambling fallacy.

Of course, maps will have stylistic tendencies that will affect the win rates of individual players... This doesn't matter for overall map balance.

I think understanding how the win rate is achieved (i.e. only 1 build is viable) is important analysis for the quality of the map and enjoyment of the map, but it's irrelevant for any balance discussion.

There could be statistical differences between ASL results and sponsored match results because ASL has more prep, but the sample size makes it pretty difficult to draw any definitive conclusion and arguably this is irrelevant unless you're top 8 which means it only really affects 1-3 players.

It's worth noting though when a map is introduced into a tournament setting, often the race with the most intuitive good strategies will be favored, and we might later discover that the map is actually balanced / imbalanced. This novelty effect could skew perception / ASL stats because maps are often first introduced in ASL.
Being mannered is almost as important as winning. Almost...
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28649 Posts
January 22 2023 20:48 GMT
#19
Sparkle actually did get its stats somewhat skewed by Flash, at least when there were fewer games played. I remember removing Flash from the statistics and TvP would then move from being 60% for terran to being 54% for terran, and tvz changed from being roughly 50-50 to being 45-55. In TvP, Flash had a 25-3 record (much better than his overall TvP) while other terrans were breaking even, and a 39-20 record TvZ (worse than his regular) while other terrans were also overall losing (which is also worse than regular).

So basically Sparkle was overall worse for TvZ no matter what terran opted for (terran basically had some various openings that could give them big advantages or outright win - but if Z hadn't been hurt the first 10 minutes, they'd win almost every time), while for TvP, it became a fantastic map when terran played it correctly and executed flawlessly, but it wasn't a particularly strong TvP map for most people.
Moderator
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2665 Posts
January 22 2023 21:23 GMT
#20
On January 23 2023 05:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:
for TvP, it became a fantastic map when terran played it correctly and executed flawlessly, but it wasn't a particularly strong TvP map for most people.

I mean, for "most people", TvP isn't a strong matchup anyway

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