EPTExplain to me why allied mines is banned - Page 6
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ThoRk
Argentina78 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On June 19 2007 15:39 Jyvblamo wrote: If Hold-Lurkers could be abused to the extent that you say, then no doubt the professional community would have abused it to death, and it would be banned. Because almost EVERY zerg user plays muta first. And then holding lurkers becomes obsolete because a lot of terrans can scan everywhere with their fast expand or they may already have vessels. However what about if we played lurkers first ? I'd be glad if someone can link me a lot of vods including lurks first's games because i'm pretty sure we haven't seen it a lot and thus we can't yet judge if it should be allowed or not. | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On June 19 2007 15:49 RaiZ wrote: Because almost EVERY zerg user plays muta first. So you think progamers are just drooling retards who are SO LOCKED IN to using mutalisks that they just can't see the glorious might of hold lurker | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On June 19 2007 15:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: So I'm wondering again why you made this thread? No offense but WHY IN THE HELL we need to be a victim in order to prevent this ? Can't we prevent this BEFORE we're victims ? Not giving any insight about possible(s) imbalance(s) just because we're not involved or because it hasn't happened very often is simply retarded. What he meant by there is simply because it isn't used very often. If it was used a lot more i'm pretty sure there'd be imba thread involving hold lurks. Edit : On June 19 2007 15:51 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: So you think progamers are just drooling retards who are SO LOCKED IN to using mutalisks that they just can't see the glorious might of hold lurker Where did i say progamers are drooling retards ? :X Using mutalisk is undoubtely a good option as it can do a lot of thing. I'm just saying lurks strat are simply underused nothing more nothing less. It's also more difficult to control the lurks since we need glings support, but i can guarantee you that if we manage to move freely with the lurks, not a single terran would be moving ahead of their base untill they have vessels just because they fear a lot of holding lurks. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On June 19 2007 15:43 GrandInquisitor wrote: Next time I put my obs on your turret or gas stack hack to destroy your nexus in a ladder game, I'll be sure to cite this magazine article as a reference to WGT. the attacking w/ stacked workers bug is not even close to a surprised lurker attack, where the only thing it allows you to do is to KEEP LURKERS FROM ATTACKING, and all you have to do is hold it with another unit, spam Stop, or attack a building out of range, not do some weird crap in order to have a crapton of workers combine into some super worker that does massive damage ok? jeezes christ. as for obs over turret, doesnt that not always work? so it's a risk, you may just lose your obs trying to do this, and if any other unit that attacks air including another turret gets near it, obs is dead anyways, which he can see anyways as it still detects, but not fires (right?) is it even banned in leagues? that one is more iffy, i can see it being legal and being banned both, but still it's also not close to holding lurkers from attacking, there should be no shame in ever doing that. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 19 2007 15:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: So I'm wondering again why you made this thread? Maybe not all my threads are made to bitch and whine about what happened to me last night in op tl-west, but to spark some intellectual discussion. Tough concept to grasp, I know. Great, so for your example, you've described a situation where it doesn't actually matter if the lurkers hold position or not. You don't apply the theory to proper context, because evidently you don't understand what the proper context is. I can say it a hundred times and you're still gonna just mentally skip over it. Steve I want you to think real long and hard about the different implications of having a lurker at a minline shoot whenever something gets in range (aka a warping nexus), and a lurker that only shoots at the minline when a line of probes comes in. Hell, why don't you make a thread about how imbalanced burrowed zerglings and hydralisks are? No, I'm too busy making blog entries with shitty MSPaints that no one else finds funny anymore. What's the "proper context" for that? | ||
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yubee
United States3826 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On June 19 2007 15:59 GrandInquisitor wrote: Maybe not all my threads are made to bitch and whine about what happened to me last night in op tl-west, but to spark some intellectual discussion. Tough concept to grasp, I know. Steve I want you to think real long and hard about the different implications of having a lurker at a minline shoot whenever something gets in range (aka a warping nexus), and a lurker that only shoots at the minline when a line of probes comes in. No, I'm too busy making blog entries with shitty MSPaints that no one else finds funny anymore. What's the "proper context" for that? Did you know that a lurker behind some minerals may or may not be in range of a warping nexus?????? Put the fucking lurker in the correct place and see what happens. Why the fuck are you getting personal anyway? | ||
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merz
Sweden2760 Posts
Mines were designed to detonate no matter what, theres no "stop" button on them. Who knows, blizzard might intentionally have added the function which means that you can hold certain units if you place them in groups. However i'm sure they did not intend the "allie" function to be used to blow up 23239232 goons. | ||
semioldguy
United States7488 Posts
Scenarios for both: Hold lurkers: Before they are discovered are able to deal a bunch of damage to a portion of the army in a ranged line or two, taking out a decent sized force. Their presence is then known and the opposing player has time to react and avoid the lurkers. These lurkers are supply units that the Zerg player has invested and represent a part of his army. Allied mines: Before they are discovered are able to deal a bunch of damage to a large portion or potentially all of a large strike force, taking out a significant force anywhere thet they have been placed. The mines are gone, but so is the opposing army; there is no time for the opponent to react. His army is gone and any units left will not be able to avoid the incoming Terran armada. The mines did not use supply and did not represent a part of the Terran army. Hold lurkers will never be able to do damage equal to the potential of that from allied mines in any matchup. Furthermore, when hold lurkers are used, the opponent now knows where a chunk of the Zerg swarm is. The other portion of his swarm will be smaller because of the use of the hold lurkers. But when allied mines are used, the Terran army should still be at large and in full force and attacking a dwindled army. However, one might say that in the case of the hold lurkers that the zerg now has a larger army and can attack in full. This is true, but the victimized army will be much weaker in the case against allied mines. Hold lurkers cannot win the game on the spot, they just can't attack enough units at once to do so. By the time there are enough lurkers to eliminate a group of units, the opposing play should have additional units. The hold lurkers should never be able to eliminate enough of the opposition at once to just outright win. Sure, the hold lurkers can tip the scales decidedly in the Zerg players favor and lead him, even directly, to victory. Though it is much easier to defend and make a comeback against hold lurkers than it is to do so against a successful allied mine assault. | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
If you want complete honesty, I think the reason it is not banned is because it basically doesn't effect ZvPorZ and ZvT is the "hard" matchup. In addition, it most certainly does not break ZvT at a pro level either. Some might even go so far as to say that it helps balance early game ZvT. I can't say I necessarily disagree with those points. I can't stand seeing it used in Progames though, as a fan, since it can basically be a game decider if the Terran blows it. I guess that could be said for a lot of things as well though. So in the end, I realize that my hatred of HL is somewhat irrational and I'll never try to convince others to feel the same as I do about it, since I can't even come up with a good reason for it. However, I reserve the right to call a Zerg player a lameo for getting lucky using it. Chojja and Savior...I'm looking at you.  | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
And merz that is true, but for a reason I stated above. The answer is not unacceptable, because thats why is was banned. | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 19 2007 16:11 Zelniq wrote: you lost a bunch of probes maynarding to an expo by a surprise lurker attack then make a thread wondering why allied mines is banned but hold lurker isnt? Hold Lurker never happened to me, sorry, guess I only explained that in the posts you ignored. FakeSteve: if you don't want to get offended don't come in here and start shit like "You're too newb/stupid to understand The Proper Context in which Said Tactics are Employed Unlike Me. Go create topics on how burrowed zerglings are so imba lololol" | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On June 19 2007 16:15 Zelniq wrote: not enough TLnetters respect zerg. give them a break, it's rough not being able to always mass spam workers like the other races can. That's why i've nothing wrong with holding drones at ramps since we "sacrifice" 1 larvae for that... While the p or t can make non stop peons while having offensives units at the same time. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On June 19 2007 16:16 GrandInquisitor wrote: FakeSteve: if you don't want to get offended don't come in here and start shit like "You're too stupid to understand The Proper Context in which Said Tactics are Employed Unlike Me. Go create topics on how burrowed zerglings are so imba." You do not understand the proper context surrounding Hold Lurker. This is not a personal attack, its a statement of fact. I told you that it doesn't have to matter if lurker hold position or not and it didn't even occur to you that its entirely possible for lurkers to be in range of probes at the minerals and not in range of the nexus. Accept this, and either learn something or drop it entirely. Keep your petty bullshit to yourself, this thread ain't a spotlight to be shining on yourself so the world can see GrandInquisitor 0wnin nubz left and right. | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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