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Alkeides
2 Posts
I'm kind of new to Broodwar so I need a bit of advice. I've just lost three times against the same terran buid (I play protoss). Basically, they bunker fast expand, turtle as hell and then push with lots of vultures+tanks at ~9min. I was wondering if someone could give me a hint on what kind of harass or units would be a good way to deal with that push. Thanks | ||
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CicadaSC
144 Posts
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sadego
6 Posts
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chozen86
United States57 Posts
One good solution is to scout it as soon as possible (get obs in ASAP, preferably around 7 mins or earlier), and if you see more than 3-4 facs and no CC / armory, go up to 10 gates, and add 1-2 shuttles for zealot bombs. If you hold, you should be able to expand behind that and win, cos T should be quite far behind. Take my advice with grain of salt, I am chobo. | ||
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yubo56
496 Posts
At the level of specificity you gave us, you should focus on zealots and dragoons, both with their upgrades (speed/range). Enough of those are always necessary to counter a timing push. If the push comes somewhat later, arbiters or high templar are your key support units. HT are for storm, while arbiters are useful for both their recall abilities (try to recall just as the terran is trying to push out) and stasis (if you stasis 3+ tanks, or even 5, that's a lot of their damage you've negated). Finally, one completely different option of tech is massing carriers. You'll want dragoons and storm to support them eventually. But carriers is not the best way to learn to play the matchup; while they're much stronger at lower levels, the playstyle is generally much more fragile until you're very good at the game (terran timing pushes when you have just 3-5 carriers are absolutely deadly), so I'd recommend playing a gateway style and adding arbiters once you're comfortable. That's the overall view of how to play the game. Now, the other posters have given you ideas of how to open the game, so you can check the liquipedia pages for those build orders. For most of them, if you scout the Terran trying to take a fast expansion, you should try to take your own fast expansion. Sadego hits on the key point in PvT though: you have to have an idea of when the Terran is trying to push. Usually, when you can see them adding factories (by sneaking in with an observer), you should be adding gateways of your own. Most 2 base Terran timing pushes hit with between 4-6 factories, and I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but I think you need 6-8 gateways off ~2.5 bases (don't fully saturate the third, add gateways once it has a few probes at it). Most 3 base Terran pushes have closer to 7-9 factories and push pretty close to maxed out. The answer to the maxed out push is to take at least 4, usually 5 bases, go up to about 10 gateways in your first main and ~6 at the second main, then max out yourself and wait for their push. You want to hit their push with everything you have, remax out of all your gateways, then attack their push over and over, very swarmy/zergy. Anything between the maxed out push and a 2 base 4-6 factory push, as well as any harass, you'll probably just have to guesstimate and learn, we can't provide you with exact numbers without exact replays (and your opponents probably won't be at the level where you need exact numbers). But the first big divergence is whether the terran adds many factories or a 3rd CC after his natural. So we've talked about the right units to build, and roughly the right amount of production, as well as how to know when to add it (optimally). The best way to get to this sort of game state is to open with dragoons + range (1 gateway is the professional build, but you can start with 2 gate when you're learning) and a fast expansion, then a robo for observers + third base, then twilight council for chargelots; that's the rough ordering of things, though obviously the exact timings will change from game to game. Lastly, when you take the fight, the most important thing is to not send your army in single file to a sieged line of tanks, that's the fastest way to lose. Your ideal engagement is if you can send your entire army at him as an entire front (like a wave) onto his unsieged tanks. This is hard, and you'll need to practice; the most important first step is to spread your army out before his push, so some army out on the map. If you think you can take cinematic engagements, the next steps you can try are (in no particular order): add a shuttle for zealot drops, add arbiters for stasis, get high templar for storms, or use arbiters to recall and force the terran home. Hopefully that gives you some idea of (i) what units to build, (ii) how to build them, (iii) how to get there), and (iv) how to fight! | ||
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Anc13nt
1324 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile1834 Posts
On September 11 2019 09:39 Alkeides wrote: Hi there, I'm kind of new to Broodwar so I need a bit of advice. I've just lost three times against the same terran buid (I play protoss). Basically, they bunker fast expand, turtle as hell and then push with lots of vultures+tanks at ~9min. I was wondering if someone could give me a hint on what kind of harass or units would be a good way to deal with that push. Thanks if they take fast expand, and they get tank after bunker, you can take 3rd nexus quick if they take fast expand, and get vulture after bunker, you need observers, then take 3rd nexus. you 1st observer has to clear mines and scout # of factories. 1st observer should be at his factories at arround 6:30-7:00 minutes. so you have 2 minutes to react properly to his # of factories. if more than 3 factories, delay arbiter tech and just get 8 gate off 3 nexus and citadel for speed zealots. ideal composition to deal with terran 5-6 factories is 12-14 dragoon 1 shuttle with zealots and, 1-2 control groups of zealots with speed. theres more complex ways of dealing with 5-6 fac timing, but involves mind games, good control or deep knowledge of the game. Check this thread : https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/524596-pvt-engagement-mini-guide | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1195 Posts
this is a strong build. nearly non-stop worker production + reaver for defending. | ||
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TT1
Canada9494 Posts
On September 11 2019 14:18 LaStScan wrote: 1 goon robo 21nexus. dr-pylon-range-dr-shuttle-dr-support bay this is a strong build. nearly non-stop worker production + reaver for defending. i saw snow bust a 15cc with this build, 3-4 goons with 1 shuttle reav u still do this opener if u probe scout FD tho? or just go standard nexus/robo timing? | ||
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Anc13nt
1324 Posts
On September 11 2019 13:10 XenOsky wrote: if they take fast expand, and they get tank after bunker, you can take 3rd nexus quick if they take fast expand, and get vulture after bunker, you need observers, then take 3rd nexus. you 1st observer has to clear mines and scout # of factories. 1st observer should be at his factories at arround 6:30-7:00 minutes. so you have 2 minutes to react properly to his # of factories. if more than 3 factories, delay arbiter tech and just get 8 gate off 3 nexus and citadel for speed zealots. ideal composition to deal with terran 5-6 factories is 12-14 dragoon 1 shuttle with zealots and, 1-2 control groups of zealots with speed. theres more complex ways of dealing with 5-6 fac timing, but involves mind games, good control or deep knowledge of the game. Check this thread : https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/524596-pvt-engagement-mini-guide Good advice. I'm surprised the protoss can switch to zealot production that quickly; I always have habit of making like 20 goons before massing zealots. On unrelated note, I wonder if this ratio should be maintained in the late game. I usually have like 30 something goons with around 20 zealots in the late game. | ||
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Chef
10797 Posts
- Your strategic understanding could be improved - Your build could be further optimized - Your execution could be smoother - Your focus could be used more effectively - Your micro management could be improved There are lots of things beginners have to learn though, and generic advice like - always build probes at all nexuses - try to be up one base versus terran - don't attack vulture tank without dragoons AND zealots - pull dragoons back after your zealots all die - try to attack terran while they're moving, not while they're seiged - don't let terran get an extremely fortified position right outside your base are all good ideas. You should be aiming to get some sort of tier 3 support unit, like carriers or arbiters or high templar with psi storm, don't be boring and just stay on zealot goon forever, or if you do, try to get lots of expansions and play very strategically with good flanks from multiple sides when you engage the Terran army. Try to watch a few pro games or replays and just take ideas from their games and just pick and choose what you think you can do, or let it be inspiration for ideas of your own you want to try. You're at a beautiful time in your StarCraft journey where you can probably focus more on gimmicky strategies and quirky maneuvers, seeing the fun side of this game. You can also do things that are completely invalid at higher levels, like leaving a builder bee worker to always be where he needs to be to build stuff, rather than sending him back to mine right away. You can throw down 4 stargates because you got caught up microing and let your bank build too high, and have a really powerful weird tech switch. | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5029 Posts
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1195 Posts
On September 11 2019 14:44 TT1 wrote: i saw snow bust a 15cc with this build, 3-4 goons with 1 shuttle reav u still do this opener if u probe scout FD tho? or just go standard nexus/robo timing? yes. fast robo is very strong. | ||
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PorkSoda
156 Posts
Would you really recommend shuttle/reaver to someone that is new to Brood war? I know it’s strong it the hands of an experienced player, but for a new player it sounds like a recipe for missing macro cycles whiles they micro or having the shuttle/reaver killed and being way behind. | ||
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