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Let's start off by saying that I understand that the balance behind Starcraft, particularly its pro scene, is extremely delicate. Fixing or altering things inside the game can have massive changes on the competitive aspect. This thread is aimed at addressing the future of Starcraft and focusing on preventing the game for turning stale, while maintaining that we keep the game as balanced as possible.
Now how about we take a look at the least commonly used units used for each race: The scout, ghost + nukes, and queens + infested terrans. How can we make this unit viable without upsetting the natural balance of the game?
Taking a look at the scout, we can clearly see we have an ineffective unit that is overshadowed by its superior air friends the corsair and the carrier. How can we give the scout a purpose without overlapping roles between these 2 other units? Well firstly we can see that the unit is too expensive. 275 for minerals and 125 for gas. Lowering these amounts should be the first order of business. Also we have 2 useless upgrades, one for speed and one for vision, that no one would ever care to research. These upgrades should come by default with the unit.
Now the issue persists however: the unit doesn't really have a clearly defined useful role. Originally the scout was designed to battle capital ships. Well battlecruisers arent built in PvT. Carriers havent been popular in PvP in ages and devourers are basically only seen late game on island maps. Lets put attack roles aside and turn to support roles. Maybe an ability could be used to create a useful strategy for the scout? What if we gave stargate tech an option for detection? How could we do this without stepping on the lonely observer's toes?
My idea is to the give the scout a detection ability that uses energy similar to how the ghost and the wraith use energy. 25 to enable and its drains to 0. Now we have a dedicated detection role (the observer) and a support detection role with worse detecting abilities but more robust and it can attack. Some might say stats buffs such as decreased cost and built in upgrades plus added detection might be too much. There is certainly an argument there but I believe the scout is such a poorly designed unit that it truly needs that much help.
Moving on to the nukes, we have a tech path that suffers from one fatal flaw. Its just way too damn costly. Honestly I feel like ghosts are actually a well designed unit in the sense that it could essentially be used in all 3 match ups. 25 minerals and 75 gas is a fair cost for the actual unit in this regard. Then you have to research cloak. Then you have to get the nuclear silo add on. Now its time to finally build your nuke. Wait I forgot the covert ops. So much investment that its almost impossible to get your money's worth.
Reduce nuclear silo from 100/100 to 50/50. Reduce nuclear missile cost from 200/200 to 100/100. 8 supply is absolutely ridiculous. Could argue anywhere from 4 to 6 supply as a fair range. To make this unit viable you might have to go as far as giving the cloak by default. It's just such a huge commitment to go down this tech path that making it worthwhile takes quite a bit.
Finally we have the queen which actually scares me to talk about changing because this unit does see competitive play. Spawn broodling against a meching terran is certainly a fair strategy that's seen from time to time. Any changes to this unit would have to be subtle. What's underused about queens? Well ensare never really pays off. It takes too much apm that is usually better spent somewhere else. Infested terrans are even more rare to see.
Perhaps an energy reduction from 75 to 50 on ensare could increase its usage overall. If this proves to be too powerful of a buff then perhaps increasing the range of the ability would be more subtle? I would also consider both of these changes to the parasite ability too.
Situations where infested terrans arise are so rare that judging what to change becomes difficult. Id start with reducing the cost from 100/50 to 50/50. Next I would give them some sort of melee attack similar to how kerrigan attacks in the campaign. The suicide ability would have to be manually triggered so you have control of when it is used.
Im not a game designer nor am I an expert in the matter. I am however very passionate about this game. Starcraft is my baby that I will love forever and I want its legacy to live on until Im an old man with arthritis who can barely get above 50 apm. I want to hear opinions from everyone. If changing units in broodwar (even the mediocre ones) seems like a terrible idea to you, I want you to tell me. Should things like scouts and nukes live on as bad mannered novelty units or should we try to figure out a way to implement them into the game?
Poll: Should we consider fixing starcraft's unused units?No, leave the game as it is. (170) 72% Yes (65) 28% 235 total votes Your vote: Should we consider fixing starcraft's unused units? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No, leave the game as it is.
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looks like this is a yearly returning topic? i think the community is pretty much done with these when i read trough this topic i get the feeling oh here we go again....
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On March 19 2019 14:57 kidcrash wrote:
This thread is aimed at addressing the future of Starcraft and focusing on preventing the game for turning stale, while maintaining that we keep the game as balanced as possible.
Use exotic maps with new design aspects. If it's shit, stop using it. Case closed, the game won't be stale in any way.
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On March 19 2019 15:08 onlystar wrote:
looks like this is a yearly returning topic? i think the community is pretty much done with these when i read trough this topic i get the feeling oh here we go again....
I respect your opinion to disagree. I apologize that i havent read through other posters threads on the matter. Id like my right to discuss the topic to remain somewhat constructive.
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On March 19 2019 15:12 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 14:57 kidcrash wrote:
This thread is aimed at addressing the future of Starcraft and focusing on preventing the game for turning stale, while maintaining that we keep the game as balanced as possible.
Use exotic maps with new design aspects. If it's shit, stop using it. Case closed, the game won't be stale in any way.
Exotic maps are certainly an effective way of keeping the game fresh. I feel like ignoring units that are in the game and are seldom (never) used is a bit stubborn however.
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On March 19 2019 15:08 onlystar wrote:
looks like this is a yearly returning topic? i think the community is pretty much done with these when i read trough this topic i get the feeling oh here we go again....
Yearly?
3 times a year at least.
The fact that they are underused makes it more interesting when they are used.
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On March 19 2019 15:25 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 15:08 onlystar wrote:
looks like this is a yearly returning topic? i think the community is pretty much done with these when i read trough this topic i get the feeling oh here we go again.... Yearly? 3 times a year at least. The fact that they are underused makes it more interesting when they are used.
agree let me sum it up for topic starter : previous topics conclude all these units have their niche when they CAN be used in some strategies&maps and some with an element of surprise to catch players off guards its a wonderful mechanic to see these niche strategies being put to use sometimes its perfect the way it is.
also queen ensnare/parasite/broodling is not so rare in tvz /tvz mech late game
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I think my argument would be that everything about starcraft is wonderful and beautiful for me and that not tapping into its full potential is a waste. Is seeing nada nuke someone in an asl match any more or less "interesting" than watching standard 20 minute tvp battles in the asl finals?
Edit: i guess entertainment is subjective in this regard
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this forum is pretty dead anyway, doesnt matter if this thread pop up from time to time.
queen ensnare not being used isnt really about apm, its just the fact that the ensnare aoe is too small to make it worth it.only way to catch a good chunk of MM is if they are packed together in one spot which rarely happens in a high level game with players proactively moving stuff.
and even if you catch them, you have to take advantage of it ASAP as the ensnare will run out soon. you can ensnare stacked wraiths but by the time you get queen and ensnare in a typical game where this happen, the momentum wuld have shift to zerg aggression/terran defense and the terrans will park their wraiths over turret and marines
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Nukes are nigh orgasmic because you so seldom get to see them. The same applies to queens and scouts. It does not seem so that all units have to be as mundane as zerglings for the game's full beauty to come to surface.
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Talking about changes to infested terran costs/behavior is silly IMO. I mean it only applies in one matchup, and the game is typically decided at the point one can be built. I'm not in favor of changing them at all, but frankly, I'd just as soon see them eliminated than get concerned about changing their stats.
Scouts.. your proposed changes are interesting, but only because of the unit name. I'm not in favor of changing them, but if you are going to make it useful as a scout (faster, greater vision, detection spell) then it shouldn't be able to deliver extreme air damage.
queens and nukes... certainly don't change these. we've already witnessed an interesting (possibly short lived) rush to nuke meta. It wouldn't surprise me if either or both of these are underused in error as is. ie, worth using more often real games. i've seen a few of ZvT with queens that were fantastic. also a queen or two in ZvZ can almost cause an instant win in the right circumstance.
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I would love to see more DA for protoss against zerg. I think it is the most underused unit in BW, actually. Looking at the potential this unit has, especially in mid and late game scenarios. But it is a matter of build order and creativity and not balance per se.
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The only change to ghosts/nuke which i would add is changing lockdown to work on bio units and changing splash damage for nuke zones, so that it works on burrowed units under swarm same as unburrowed. Now to kill lurker you have to put a nuke directly in its ass, which is ridiculous, when nukes could be used to move forward against zerg defending with swarm. Lockdown on bio would make sk terran more interesting and easier to play against hard countering mass ultra. Thats all changes I would like to see, basically directing tvz.
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Scout needs to go, or remain campaign only.
Even with the both upgrades (which I research, sorry, both of them when I'm using scouts) and 3/3/3, the only viable usage is with shield batteries (like 8-10) and speed upgrade at least. Even so, marines with stim or hydras absolutely destroys them with a fraction of cost. If we introduce also medics or defilers, the thing become ridiculous.
Even using like 8-10 for raids, they have troubles even with 2 spores or turrets (they handle better the cannons).
The main issue with scouts is not the price (albeit *very* costly for a harass unit), but their speed. Corsairs are better, even being air only, because of their speed. Make the corsair crawl like a scout and 3-4 hydras will clear them out instantly.
The only usage I found are on *some* islands or very large maps, with 10-12 shield batteries and at least 36 scouts (which is a good indication of playing against AI or rookies). Go straight into production, destroy factories/barracks, then fly back to recharge. Other than that, they are nothing more than a pretext of seeing other rare units like queens or ghosts, which demolish them with ensnere or lockdown.
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Infested terrans are a great unit, just not that great against terrans and their instant range damage.
Queens are fine, ensnare too. M&Ms with 50% damage reduction is a thing and nobody would call you out for cheesing if you use it.
Ghosts are tricky, APM intense and cost alot of gas. If their lockdown would have a greater range, they would probably be too strong against toss. Nukes aren't bad either. They just take up the spot of a possible scanner.
Scouts are just bad, but they too can have their use... building them is kinda like taunting in Street Fighter.
And sometimes, when they are totally unexpected they can deal some damage in the early PvT.
PS: Who cares if this discussion comes up every month on every BW related forum.
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scouts do have a use. it is used to show someone how much worse they are at the game when u kill them with mass scouts
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One change I’ve always wanted to see is moving D Web research from the fleet beacon to the cybernetics core (I.e. you could research it at the same point as goon range). I think it could open things up a lot in PvZ (especially given cair openings are standard) and also shake TvP up a bit.
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Scouts are a terrible unit, however they have their perfect space in pub games.
So do ghost/nukes.
Queens are underused though. I would like to see more of the broodling features, however it just costs way too much energy to get there.
Verdict: leave it where it is. Play games for fun and use those units.
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On March 19 2019 20:14 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
Scouts are a terrible unit, however they have their perfect space in pub games.
So do ghost/nukes.
Queens are underused though. I would like to see more of the broodling features, however it just costs way too much energy to get there.
Verdict: leave it where it is. Play games for fun and use those units.
queens are used often in tvz late mech.
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Bisutopia19391 Posts
If SCVs can repair air units then they should have an air attack. Glad I got that off my chest.
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EPT
