• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:51
CEST 15:51
KST 22:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th12Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ I made an ASL quiz
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 1
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 25396 users

[ASL6] Semis Preview - Two of a Kind

Forum Index > BW General
25 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 Next All

[ASL6] Semis Preview - Two of a Kind

Text byBigFan
Graphics byBigfan
October 19th, 2018 20:01 GMT
logo
My oh my how the time flew by.
It's the semifinals of ASL6, the time is nigh.
The third quarterfinals had sparks flying,
as a mad scientist and a protoss player kept vying.
In the end, the scientist admitted defeat,
much to the dismay of his fans, and his colleagues.

The fourth quarterfinals was much more of a stomp.
A 3-0 win by Flash, a Terran scum.
Never doubt Flash, he was truly great.
He always brings hope to a doomed race.
Hope you all learned your lesson, I did too.
Now read our recaps, I know you want too!

The semifinals promise to be good, or at least they should.
Last vs EffOrt, fantastic Terran vs great Zerg.
Will EffOrt rise to the task, or will he despair?
Flash vs Shuttle, a match of titans.
Can Shuttle bring the hurt, or will he be sent home frightened?
Truly a great time to be a BW fan so witness the games, and be there!

Table of contents

  • Intro
  •  
  • Shuttle vs Action Recap
  • Flash vs Mini Recap
  •  
  • Last vs EffOrt Preview
  • Flash vs Shuttle Preview
  •  
  • (Wiki)Liquipedia
Group A Preview

Dryer Setting: Tumble Dry


Game 1 on Sylphid:
Action makes the exotic choice of fast mutas versus Shuttle's equally exquisite double stargate. The tension in the air was thick with strife between the two fleets waging for supremacy of the skies. However, before the two could even trade a single blow, Action was the first to turn his starry ambitions against himself. Based on the assumption that Shuttle would do the usual speed zealots and 1 stargate, Action had prioritized three fast gases and sunken colonies. His aims were held high - to make a single decisive move to overwhelm Shuttle's main base while holding off a ground attack.

Due to the tragic misread of Shuttle's play, Action had effectively handicapped his own economy. In fact, Shuttle had gone for the perfect antithesis to what Action could have done. Action's remaining tactic was to backstab after Shuttle's inevitable corsair push, but had few resources to defend overlords back home.

While in the aftermath Action won favorable engagements, his economy was far behind while Shuttle gladly massed units off of 2 bases. That eventually snowballed to losing his third, and despite Action's best efforts to stem the rushing flow of Protoss, he was overwhelmed.

[image loading]
Action's closing moments

Game 2 on Neo Transistor:
Action claimed victory from the outset, opening 9 pool versus Shuttle's fast nexus into delayed gateway. Employing sharp mind games, Action bargained Shuttle wouldn't expect him to take a risk while down in the first game. This was a pivotal turning point in a series for Action, to not go down 0-2.

Game 3 on Autobahn:
Action revealed his penchant for specialized strategies, opening 9 pool into 1 base mutas. Action's mutas made it barely in time to take care of Shuttle's warping-in cannons. Leveling Shuttle's main base, Action was far ahead until Shuttle had amassed enough corsairs at his natural to take a decisive victory in the air. Regaining control of his main, Shuttle's corsair reaver strategy finally had legs to stand on. Subsequent attempts were thwarted though by Action's now bustling economy. Going on for several more sprints, Shuttle was eventually worn down by Action's now thriving 5 bases worth of lurkers, lings, hydras, and defilers.

[image loading]
Mutas molded by cheese

Game 4 on Circuit Breaker:
Action once again threw another curveball, going 3 hatch hydra, but proxying the 3rd hatch at Shuttle's mineral only. A carefully crafted build, Action's third was meant to be scouted by Shuttle and cause an overreaction of cannons. Meanwhile, back at home, Action merrily droned and took his own mineral only third. He even began to mine from Shuttle's mineral only from the proxy hatchery. More clever than practical though, Action was slightly behind as the privy Shuttle had cancelled two cannons upon scouting with the corsair. To make matters worse, a DT had slipped by Action's front line of hydras. The DT went on to do great things, killing several more drones at Action's mineral only, and 9 o'clock base, setting up Shuttle's main army to land the killing blow.

[image loading]

Game 5 on Sylphid:
Shuttle's 1 gate expand aggression was dealt with by Action in a tense micro exchange. The situation became dicey when in a moment of weakness, Action retreated all of his lings to his natural to defend a DT. However, the DT instead went to Action's third, delaying mining. Then, in another heart stopping moment, Shuttle lost several of his corsairs to scourge.

For Shuttle though, the story had not ended with the departure of his air fleet. It had only begun. Marching onwards from underneath their fallen comrades, Shuttle's zealot army struck quickly and decisively. Action had just barely gotten mutas out, hampered by taking his mineral only as his third. He microed the best he could with what mutas and hydras were left, but with no sunkens to strengthen his flimsy defenses, the situation looked grim. The turning point of the game finally yielded to Shuttle's uproarious charge, stealing victory from the jaws of defeat.

[image loading]

Group B Preview

Domination

Coming into this series as the undergod, many hoped that Mini would be able to beat Flash, or at the minimum, take a game or two to make it a close series. Alas, Flash is flash and for good reason. Mini played subpar, aside from some moments or two, and the end result was a 3-0 win by Flash.

Game 1 on Sylphid:
Mini spawning at 4 o'clock decided to open with 12 nexus, adding 2 gates and gas shortly after while Flash spawning at 12 went for a 1 rax fac expand. Upon scouting, Flash went on the offensive with a 7 SCVs, 4 marine+1 vulture push. A tussle took place at Mini's expansion, where Mini mismicroed, and Flash managed to plant a bunker and take down the nexus. From there, Mini tried dark templars, and held against Flash's first push, but the game was already over with the next large push from Flash.

[image loading]

"You trying this against me?"

Game 2 on Circuit Breaker:
Spawning in close positions, flash went for 1 rax FE while Mini went for 1 gate core into reavers, planting the nexus shortly before the reaver came out. With the reaver and 4 goons, Mini broke Flash's bunker, and killed lots of workers, but due to a reaver bug, the reaver was unable to kill the last tank. From there, Mini saturated his expansion, added stargates for carriers, and positioned himself at Flash's third. Unfortunately for him, Flash scouted the stargates, and when he moved out, he sniped both reavers and the shuttle.

[image loading]

Only Flash can come back from this

This put things back in Flash's favour as Flash mentioned in his post-game interview. From there, Flash kept pushing until he sieged Mini's main. Mini tried to hold on by targeting goliaths with his reaver, and going for a small counter, but the counter was denied, and his carrier+interceptor count was still low. Flash bulldozed his way up into the main, taking out structures then probes before Mini tapped out.

Game 3 on Neo Transistor:
Both players decided to go for an expansion with Mini going for 12 nexus while Flash opened with 14 cc. While Flash went for 2 fac, and added a starport, Mini opted for a robo, but added 2 stargates aiming for carriers. A drop from Flash netted some probe kills, and helped him scout the incoming carriers. The rest of the match was Flash getting a third then fourth easily, Mini defending a drop while trying to increase his carrier count, and then an engagement on the high ground outside Mini's new third base.

From there, Mini's third was denied (he does try to take it at another place), and he eventually went for a counter as Flash sieged his main from the low ground. Flash had more than enough to defend the counterattack while Mini lost his main, then the game shorty after.

[image loading]

The End

Thoughts: Another 3-0 for Flash. Dominating fashion as we've come to expect. Mini did not play his usual style, and aside from a great start to game 2, he looked really shaky in his games, so maybe something was off. Ironically, the current meta favours his style, but maybe that's why he mixed it up as well? A bit sad to see considering he's one of the big three Protoss at the moment, and he can be really good. Hopefully, this doesn't affect his mentality when he plays in KSL2 otherwise he might see an early exit there.

Group C Preview

From the Shadows he Lurks

Last has recently made headlines with his 4-0 KSL grand final victory, and a renewed reputation as a feared competitor. In a path paved on his sheer perseverance, he dominated Best 2-0 in the group stages, dropped a game to Mini, and tore through Sharp in a one-sided 3-0 in the quarterfinals. What lies ahead though is a figure covered in the shadows of legacy and mystique. He is EffOrt, champion of the last StarCraft tournament, SSL Classic, before remastered came out. Perhaps that alone is the one statistic needed to define his prevalence in tournaments so far.

EffOrt didn't participate in either KSL1 or 2, and has repeatedly failed to make it through the dreaded Ro16 group stages of the ASL. Now, finally he has broken through to new heights, tearing down Rain in a hard fought 3-1 to reach the semifinals. Jokingly, people say that the advent of Flash's 1-1-1 knocked EffOrt into playing endless 2v2 UMS and team games. In that regard, EffOrt has been known to not be the most hardworking or even the most competitive recently, but that trend is starting to shift. Pulling back the curtain, EffOrt's mechanics and competitive drive resemble the top tier Zerg Effort once was.

Despite all of EffOrt's merits, he'll have a hard time punching through Last's steady-handed and flawless play. He is, after all, playing in Last's single best matchup, which is aching to showcase itself again since dismantling Jaedong. EffOrt's best chances of winning will be in his realm of the chaotic and multitask intensive late game. In addition, EffOrt's mind games might be the key to throwing off Last, who himself has shown a penchant for great mind games himself. Any juvenile or even premature attempts at Shine or Action levels of trickery might just fall spectacularly on its face. In the end, I see EffOrt making the confident plays that attempt to win in mechanics, going for the late game. Last meanwhile will opt mainly for the more technical plays of the 1-1-1.

As much as I like EffOrt, and how great from a storyline perspective it'd be for him to win, I feel Last is just too solid to lose at the moment in his best matchup.

Prediction: (T)Last 3-0 (Z)EffOrt

(T)Last to advance to the grand final!

Group D Preview

Back to the Top?

With both players sitting out the ongoing season of the KSL, albeit for different reasons, performing well in the ASL is without a shadow of a doubt the only thing on their minds. Flash gave the Korea StarCraft League a miss, citing the need to focus solely on reclaiming the mantle of ASL champion after an unexpected Round of 8 defeat at the hands of Snow in the previous iteration of the tournament. With three OSL and three MSL championships under his belt during the KeSPA era, Flash, having returned from competitive StarCraft II, has already made a major splash during the Kongdoo/Afreeca era, claiming three ASL titles in a row.

Despite being an unprecedented feat of strength that’s not likely to be matched by anyone, Flash’s exploits have somewhat warped our definition of success and distorted the idea of a ‘realistic’ expectation. God Young Ho failing to emerge victorious in every single tournament is somehow an upset (not like it happens all too often, mind you). And the matter of predictability bears with it the inherent threat of a competitive environment becoming stale, with the same players winning over and over again to the point of tedium. I’d rather avoid bringing up the old ‘we need new blood’ discussion for the n-th time, so to cut to the chase - although I’m a massive Flash fanboy, I was well chuffed when he got eliminated from ASL5.

As far as Shuttle is concerned, per contra, the matter of relevance comes to mind. Losing to an amateur in the KSL qualifiers, however un-dignifying, seems to have given him the boost he needed. Shuttle’s ASL1 victory was promptly followed by a major slump, seeing him eliminated from the following season without picking up a single map. Things only seemed to be getting worse, as the Protoss failed to make it out of the Round of 24 in ASL3. Shuttle finally managed to step up his game in ASL5, where he got through to the Round of 8 (where his tournament run also came to a halt), having taken down the likes of Larva and EffOrt in the process.

It goes without saying that reaching the semi-finals of the current season of the ASL is by and large the best result Shuttle has had in a long time. Getting past Flash who's currently sitting at a 76% TvP winrate this month, and who has a winning record against him (Flash won 7 out of 10 games) will be a tall order. And as much as I’d like to see the champ of ASL1 perform well, I doubt he’ll manage to give the Ultimate Weapon a run for his money. No matter the result, though, Shuttle clearly did something right in ASL6. Fingers crossed he keeps it up.

Prediction: (T)Flash 3-0 (P)Shuttle

(T)Flash to advance to the grand final!


Writers: Ty2, Bigfan and Ziggy
Graphics: Bigfan
Editors: Bigfan
Facebook Twitter Reddit
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19223 Posts
October 19 2018 20:49 GMT
#2
Pretty much how I picked them too. Although I think both players could have the potential for an upset since they are wildcards perform miracles at least once a year.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
Kurao
Profile Joined April 2018
215 Posts
October 19 2018 21:16 GMT
#3
Oh man, we're due for a sick finals where the Terran titans would clash it out; Neo-Flash versus the man himself.

I do believe that if an upset in the semis were to happen, it would be EffOrt beating Last. I just don't see a world where Shuttle beats Flash after what he did to Mini in the ro8.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10107 Posts
October 19 2018 22:35 GMT
#4
i think effort will take at least a game off last.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
Rodya
Profile Joined January 2018
546 Posts
October 20 2018 01:07 GMT
#5
Effort 3 - 2 Last
Flash 3 - 0 Shuttle

Whoever meets Flash in the finals I hope they play their best and we get really good games. I guess Last would be the better match for him.
Banned for saying "zerg players are by far the biggest whiners in sc2 history" despite the fact that this forum is full of such posts about Terrans. Foreigner Elitists in control!
Yanokabo
Profile Joined October 2018
268 Posts
October 20 2018 01:53 GMT
#6
I think both these series will go to a game 5 or at least a game 4 but I agree with your results predictions. Effort is the more likely person to perform an upset I’d say his odds are no worse then 40/60 at worst.
Essbee
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada2371 Posts
October 20 2018 02:25 GMT
#7
TvT between flash and last would be <3
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19223 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 12:59:33
October 20 2018 12:59 GMT
#8
On October 20 2018 11:25 Essbee wrote:
TvT between flash and last would be <3

The problem is that they practically mirror each other in TvT. Flash vs Fantasy was amazing cause Fantasy's strengths are so different.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
r33k
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Italy3402 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 13:18:41
October 20 2018 13:18 GMT
#9
On October 20 2018 21:59 BisuDagger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 11:25 Essbee wrote:
TvT between flash and last would be <3

The problem is that they practically mirror each other in TvT. Flash vs Fantasy was amazing cause Fantasy's strengths are so different.

Fantasy had absolutely zero strengths in TvT he was completely dogshit in the matchup, Skyhigh wiping the floor with him twice was all you need to see about the one trick pony's TvT.
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 15:33:47
October 20 2018 15:22 GMT
#10
On October 20 2018 22:18 r33k wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 21:59 BisuDagger wrote:
On October 20 2018 11:25 Essbee wrote:
TvT between flash and last would be <3

The problem is that they practically mirror each other in TvT. Flash vs Fantasy was amazing cause Fantasy's strengths are so different.

Fantasy had absolutely zero strengths in TvT he was completely dogshit in the matchup, Skyhigh wiping the floor with him twice was all you need to see about the one trick pony's TvT.


That is not true. I'll paraphrase some posts about the topic I've read elsewhere.

There are key fundamentals separate from decision making you need to hone for each of the match-ups. For protoss-versus-protoss match-up, for example, your ability to get advantages with superior dragoon and reaver micro-management plays a significantly large enough role in being able to find success within the match-up. It is why Mini has such high win rates in his mirror match-up in online sponsored matches, because his micro-management is more crisp than most of the other protoss players. It is most magnified in zerg-versus-zerg, where mastery over units such as zerglings, mutalisks, and scourges play an essential role in deciding the victor.

Being able to abuse siege tank range, and playing the game of inches with siege tanks was an ability that was found in many of the terran-versus-terran virtuosos. Flash, a terran-versus-terran beast of the highest calibre, was not blessed with such an ability (at least compared to his loftly status). His strengths lie elsewhere. It is why he struggled versus firebathero initially (watch his famous comeback versus firebathero on Neo Medusa, he loses most of the siege tank micro-management duels, which is why he ended up with a huge deficit in the first place). It is something Last abused when he defeated Flash 3:0 in the quarter-finals of ASL Season 1. When Flash lost to FanTaSy, it wasn't due to his poor game plan, it usually resulted from having inferior troop management, and losing more ground than expected from these micro-management duels that FanTaSy prefered to take.

FanTaSy struggled to find advantages against mechanically sound players who was able to keep up with his game of inches involving siege tanks. It is why he tended to struggle more versus players like Light, instead of a more cerebral, but less mechanically sound players such as Sea.

Dismissing FanTaSy's terran-versus-terran abilities is like saying he only performed well in the terran-versus-protoss match-up because he abused the playmaking abilities of vultures, instead of focusing on more cerebral methods of winning the game. It doesn't matter which way you win as long as you can get results.
TL+ Member
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6538 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 15:36:42
October 20 2018 15:31 GMT
#11
patiently waiting effort to clean once for all the crap u guys are writting about him.just cuz in some article someone mentioned that chaotic muta now this is the only thing this monster player is capable of . .The Ronaldinho of starcraft will prove you wrong.

[image loading]
Wonk
Profile Joined March 2017
546 Posts
October 20 2018 22:45 GMT
#12
I think effort v. last will be much closer. A 3-2 is my bet. As cool as a Last v. Flash TvT would be I can't help but cheer for effort, it's been forever since he won anything and he deserves it.

As for shuttle vs. Flash, er, I think you guys might be spot on.
Yanokabo
Profile Joined October 2018
268 Posts
October 20 2018 22:56 GMT
#13
On October 21 2018 00:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
patiently waiting effort to clean once for all the crap u guys are writting about him.just cuz in some article someone mentioned that chaotic muta now this is the only thing this monster player is capable of . .The Ronaldinho of starcraft will prove you wrong.

[image loading]

Lol that’s the biggest fucking stretch I’ve ever read in my life. Effort is more like the kylin mbappe of sc, the weird looking guy who has talent but is less dominant then top of the top. Boxer is the rhonaldinho of sc, gutsy visionary founding father who shaped the sport in deeveloping times. Maybe effort is the eonzerg of Korean sc.

Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
October 21 2018 00:23 GMT
#14
On October 21 2018 00:22 Letmelose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 22:18 r33k wrote:
On October 20 2018 21:59 BisuDagger wrote:
On October 20 2018 11:25 Essbee wrote:
TvT between flash and last would be <3

The problem is that they practically mirror each other in TvT. Flash vs Fantasy was amazing cause Fantasy's strengths are so different.

Fantasy had absolutely zero strengths in TvT he was completely dogshit in the matchup, Skyhigh wiping the floor with him twice was all you need to see about the one trick pony's TvT.


That is not true. I'll paraphrase some posts about the topic I've read elsewhere.

There are key fundamentals separate from decision making you need to hone for each of the match-ups. For protoss-versus-protoss match-up, for example, your ability to get advantages with superior dragoon and reaver micro-management plays a significantly large enough role in being able to find success within the match-up. It is why Mini has such high win rates in his mirror match-up in online sponsored matches, because his micro-management is more crisp than most of the other protoss players. It is most magnified in zerg-versus-zerg, where mastery over units such as zerglings, mutalisks, and scourges play an essential role in deciding the victor.

Being able to abuse siege tank range, and playing the game of inches with siege tanks was an ability that was found in many of the terran-versus-terran virtuosos. Flash, a terran-versus-terran beast of the highest calibre, was not blessed with such an ability (at least compared to his loftly status). His strengths lie elsewhere. It is why he struggled versus firebathero initially (watch his famous comeback versus firebathero on Neo Medusa, he loses most of the siege tank micro-management duels, which is why he ended up with a huge deficit in the first place). It is something Last abused when he defeated Flash 3:0 in the quarter-finals of ASL Season 1. When Flash lost to FanTaSy, it wasn't due to his poor game plan, it usually resulted from having inferior troop management, and losing more ground than expected from these micro-management duels that FanTaSy prefered to take.

FanTaSy struggled to find advantages against mechanically sound players who was able to keep up with his game of inches involving siege tanks. It is why he tended to struggle more versus players like Light, instead of a more cerebral, but less mechanically sound players such as Sea.

Dismissing FanTaSy's terran-versus-terran abilities is like saying he only performed well in the terran-versus-protoss match-up because he abused the playmaking abilities of vultures, instead of focusing on more cerebral methods of winning the game. It doesn't matter which way you win as long as you can get results.


If Flash was not good at abusing siege tank range, but was a TvT player of the highest calibre, then where did his strengths lie? Are there games out there which are good examples of those strengths? And how would those strengths compare against Last's skillset?
Что?
Yanokabo
Profile Joined October 2018
268 Posts
October 21 2018 01:06 GMT
#15
I watched a flash vs last game from the KeSPA era to try to know who will have the edge if they face one another. I don’t know if it tells us anything important but flash owned with mass wraiths and tank on circuit breaker. I think last has improved a lot since the KeSPA times and flash I’d say has improved too.
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-21 02:21:57
October 21 2018 01:56 GMT
#16
On October 21 2018 09:23 Shady Sands wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2018 00:22 Letmelose wrote:
On October 20 2018 22:18 r33k wrote:
On October 20 2018 21:59 BisuDagger wrote:
On October 20 2018 11:25 Essbee wrote:
TvT between flash and last would be <3

The problem is that they practically mirror each other in TvT. Flash vs Fantasy was amazing cause Fantasy's strengths are so different.

Fantasy had absolutely zero strengths in TvT he was completely dogshit in the matchup, Skyhigh wiping the floor with him twice was all you need to see about the one trick pony's TvT.


That is not true. I'll paraphrase some posts about the topic I've read elsewhere.

There are key fundamentals separate from decision making you need to hone for each of the match-ups. For protoss-versus-protoss match-up, for example, your ability to get advantages with superior dragoon and reaver micro-management plays a significantly large enough role in being able to find success within the match-up. It is why Mini has such high win rates in his mirror match-up in online sponsored matches, because his micro-management is more crisp than most of the other protoss players. It is most magnified in zerg-versus-zerg, where mastery over units such as zerglings, mutalisks, and scourges play an essential role in deciding the victor.

Being able to abuse siege tank range, and playing the game of inches with siege tanks was an ability that was found in many of the terran-versus-terran virtuosos. Flash, a terran-versus-terran beast of the highest calibre, was not blessed with such an ability (at least compared to his loftly status). His strengths lie elsewhere. It is why he struggled versus firebathero initially (watch his famous comeback versus firebathero on Neo Medusa, he loses most of the siege tank micro-management duels, which is why he ended up with a huge deficit in the first place). It is something Last abused when he defeated Flash 3:0 in the quarter-finals of ASL Season 1. When Flash lost to FanTaSy, it wasn't due to his poor game plan, it usually resulted from having inferior troop management, and losing more ground than expected from these micro-management duels that FanTaSy prefered to take.

FanTaSy struggled to find advantages against mechanically sound players who was able to keep up with his game of inches involving siege tanks. It is why he tended to struggle more versus players like Light, instead of a more cerebral, but less mechanically sound players such as Sea.

Dismissing FanTaSy's terran-versus-terran abilities is like saying he only performed well in the terran-versus-protoss match-up because he abused the playmaking abilities of vultures, instead of focusing on more cerebral methods of winning the game. It doesn't matter which way you win as long as you can get results.


If Flash was not good at abusing siege tank range, but was a TvT player of the highest calibre, then where did his strengths lie? Are there games out there which are good examples of those strengths? And how would those strengths compare against Last's skillset?


I am of the opinion that Flash's make-up as a player suits the terran-versus-terran match-up the best, regardless of his actual results. It is why the clan master of the By. clan said Flash's best match-up was terran-versus-terran, why Flash annihilated top terran professionals during practice even before his debut, why his longest winning streak as a professional happens to be found in the terran-versus-terran match-up, and why his win rate in the mirror match-up in online sponsored matches since May 2017 (records before that are quite hard to find) are higher than his other two match-ups. It is the quintessential Flash match-up.

This is, in my opinion, due what qualities the terran-versus-terran match-up tends to reward. Flash is able to process given information and make decisions faster and more accurately than any player that has ever existed. This is a trait that is most important in the terran-versus-terran match-up, which is in my opinion, the most strategically complex match-up. Even during his 0-3 defeat against FanTaSy, I don't necessarily Flash made bad decisions to get into disadvantageous positions (in the first game for example, Flash had secured 5 gas bases in comparison to merely 3 gas bases from FanTaSy, but was unable to keep up with FanTaSy's troop movement and micro-management), but was somewhat complacent over how FanTaSy could overturn the situation with his unit mastery and utilization. It is how Flash usually loses games in general, where he underestimates the playmaking variables of certain key units, due to his general tendency to focus much more on decision making than playmaking with unit mastery. I think I've read an interview back when Flash was a professional, where he mentioned that he had difficulties mastering small scale terran-versus-terran micro-management duels, but can't seem to find it (most of the interviews from those days are lost anyways).

Stylistically speaking, someone like FanTaSy stylistically struggles more versus the likes of Last (regardless of results), because the playmaking part that FanTaSy tended to rely on is thwarted more easily, because Last puts a little more emphasis on troop management. It does not mean Last is any better, because this is just a stylistic rock-scissor-paper type situation, where the dynamic between two players does not necesarrily speak for their overall capabilities. The dude that gives the overall best player in the scene a lot of trouble isn't necessarily the second best player overall, while a player that gives the overall best player in the scene zero difficulties may actually have superior results against the rest of the field. It is just how competition works.

Take their shortkey preferences for example. Last uses 6,7 for his command centre hotkeys, whereas Flash uses 3. This means that Last has the upper hand in comparison to Flash during initial micro-management duels soley from the hotkey set-up. Flash uses all of 4,5,6,7, and 8 hotkeys for factory production, while Last has to look at his base rather than just hammering away at his keyboards in order to keep up with the unit production. This means that the set-up is in favour of Flash once the mid-game hits. This is a stylistic preference meant to cater towards the strengths of the players in question. Flash does not look to playmake by getting more out of his units than what is usually expected from them, he wants the superior set-up.

If both Flash and Last had a duel of who can execute a fixed build order with the exact same sequence of set plays over the course of the match more cleanly, I'd choose Last every single time. It is why Flash dubbed Last as AlphaGo, when Flash himself actually resembles AlphaGo more in a lot of ways (in terms of perfect decision making), due to Last's clean robotic execution. I never thought of Flash as someone who was fantastic at executing certain plays picture perfectly, but it is not what makes him so special.
TL+ Member
RxMidnight
Profile Joined July 2014
United States251 Posts
October 21 2018 05:13 GMT
#17
If I'm not mistaken Flash never properly got his revenge on Effort for his OSL finals loss. I'm hoping Effort can prevail over last so we can get a rematch. Obviously ASL will never come close to the old starleagues in terms of prestige, but it's the best we've got.
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
October 21 2018 11:43 GMT
#18
To anyone watching: What are the names of the songs used by the ASL before the games?
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
[AS]Rattus
Profile Joined March 2017
427 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-21 15:12:37
October 21 2018 12:10 GMT
#19
+ Show Spoiler +
i fear for flash now
This user tried to ruin games by spoilers in a news thread.
crsh
Profile Joined May 2018
2 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-21 15:13:00
October 21 2018 12:29 GMT
#20
+ Show Spoiler +
I like the predictions they make, because they are always wrong.
This user tried to ruin games by spoilers in a news thread
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
AllThingsProtoss
11:00
Team League - Grand Finals
Gemini_19174
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Hui .299
EnDerr 97
ProTech90
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 6570
Sea 5920
Rain 3116
Shuttle 2397
Horang2 2193
Bisu 1136
EffOrt 617
Hyuk 555
firebathero 514
Mini 296
[ Show more ]
actioN 274
ggaemo 156
Snow 126
sorry 123
Hyun 94
TY 87
Aegong 74
Pusan 66
sSak 56
Rush 43
Sea.KH 41
Barracks 40
Killer 32
Mong 26
GoRush 18
Sacsri 17
JulyZerg 17
Sharp 15
sas.Sziky 13
Terrorterran 13
yabsab 10
soO 7
ivOry 4
Britney 0
Dota 2
Gorgc6387
qojqva2240
XcaliburYe341
Fuzer 288
syndereN230
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1571
allub361
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor296
Other Games
singsing2210
B2W.Neo950
mouzStarbuck455
XaKoH 99
ArmadaUGS85
KnowMe4
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream8909
StarCraft 2
angryscii 34
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 21
• MJG 5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3501
League of Legends
• Jankos1330
Upcoming Events
Fire Grow Cup
1h 9m
BSL: ProLeague
4h 9m
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
10h 9m
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 20h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
3 days
GSL Code S
3 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
GSL Code S
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-05
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.