EPTJaedong stream thread - Page 35
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Harem
United States11393 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4139 Posts
On January 04 2017 00:16 Netto. wrote: I think he could win that game if only he had made some sunkens at every base..  Yeah I watched it, what an epic game! I thought JD lost for sure when his 3rd fell but he somehow managed to claw back in the game. I'm not sure why he didn't build more sunkens he had sooo much time. Would definitely have won if he built more sunkens. | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
Also its crazy how upset JD gets after losing. You can tell why he is such a great player. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Jaedong: What did you think about Stork and JangBi? Flash: We didn't practice that much with Samsung Khan, they were both difficult, especially since I am terran. Jaedong: I think Stork was harder, but everyone else on my team rated JangBi higher. Flash: It must be because how well JangBi played during practice. They were quite different in style. JangBi fought well. Jaedong: Yeah, he had a really spectacular style of play. Really flashy. Flash: I wish I could have seen him playing on Afreeca, I always wondered what his FPVOD would look like, I guess it would be really fast. Bisu was exactly as I imagined. You matched my expectations as well. Stork too (laughs). Jaedong: It's really efficient. He suits the race he plays. Flash: Yes, I think it would have been difficult for Stork to play any other race, but he suits protoss well. | ||
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toriak
Slovakia477 Posts
On January 03 2017 14:01 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Jaedong(P) vs Killer(Z) Funniest game ever + Show Spoiler + Jaedong doesn't know how to trap his probe behind minerals. After that he didn't have storm researched when Killer attacks so he drops Killer lol. killer is back ? | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5188 Posts
On January 04 2017 01:06 Letmelose wrote: Jaedong and Flash talking about various players, Jaedong: What did you think about Stork and JangBi? Flash: We didn't practice that much with Samsung Khan, they were both difficult, especially since I am terran. Jaedong: I think Stork was harder, but everyone else on my team rated JangBi higher. Flash: It must be because how well JangBi played during practice. They were quite different in style. JangBi fought well. Jaedong: Yeah, he had a really spectacular style of play. Really flashy. Flash: I wish I could have seen him playing on Afreeca, I always wondered what his FPVOD would look like, I guess it would be really fast. Bisu was exactly as I imagined. You matched my expectations as well. Stork too (laughs). Jaedong: It's really efficient. He suits the race he plays. Flash: Yes, I think it would have been difficult for Stork to play any other race, but he suits protoss well. Thank you! | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Jaedong is by far the most disciplined player in the history of the game, and has been the most dedicated player not only in terms of sheer number of games, but the intensity to which he practiced. He wouldn't take breaks during the holiday seasons, he would take a conscious decision to not fool around with girls, he would carefully take notes and records of every single practice games he had, and wouldn't be satisfied until he was beating everyone and everything comprehensively. I have not heard of another player who was this dedicated to their craft in any realm of competition, sports, video-games, or otherwise. There are so many games he had in his career where he was chose the wrong build orders, ended up in dreadful situations, but overcame them through sheer force of will, and impeccable execution of plays that was unmatched for years on end. His read on the game, while not as bad as some claimed it was, was definitely not ahead of his time like sAviOr's read on the game used to be, and was definitely in direct correlation of the number of times he faced that exact situation before in practice. It's why Jaedong looked much less refined when he was thrown off by odd ball strategies, or new meta-game changes. It's why his early game execution was perfect from start to finish, but his late-game seemed to be surpassed by other more late-game focused zergs like ZerO, because Jaedong's killer instinct and early game strength allowed him to finish so many practice games early on. There's the problem with talent as well. Jaedong is not a superlative talent in my eyes. HiyA jokingly said that you can't trust Jaedong in 2v2 games, because he would win all the zergling battles, but would somehow find ways to still lose the game, and that's why he wasn't chosen for 2v2 games during his early years. Jaedong goes for early engineering bays to upgrade his marines in 3v3 hunter games. He isn't a lazy genius that Sea is. His career are the fruits of incredible discipline, dedication to the game, and immense mental fortitude with the belief that his efforts and skills at the game won't betray him, even if he is on the brink of defeat. These are all amazing traits for a professional player, and it's why Jaedong had so much success in his career despite not having the best talent, and being on a less than ideal team (which plays a vital role on a player's career). As a streamer that often plays less than a dozen games a day, his wrists and age preventing him from spamming mass games, and being forced to interact with fans. Jaedong's return to form will be extremely limited in my humble opinion, probably to a greater extent than the other streamers. He is still my hero, but sometimes you just have to face the truth. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On January 04 2017 15:09 Letmelose wrote: I love Jaedong, but I was thinking a bit more about his return to form. Jaedong is by far the most disciplined player in the history of the game, and has been the most dedicated player not only in terms of sheer number of games, but the intensity to which he practiced. He wouldn't take breaks during the holiday seasons, he would take a conscious decision to not fool around with girls, he would carefully take notes and records of every single practice games he had, and wouldn't be satisfied until he was beating everyone and everything comprehensively. I have not heard of another player who was this dedicated to their craft in any realm of competition, sports, video-games, or otherwise. There are so many games he had in his career where he was chose the wrong build orders, ended up in dreadful situations, but overcame them through sheer force of will, and impeccable execution of plays that was unmatched for years on end. His read on the game, while not as bad as some claimed it was, was definitely not ahead of his time like sAviOr's read on the game used to be, and was definitely in direct correlation of the number of times he faced that exact situation before in practice. It's why Jaedong looked much less refined when he was thrown off by odd ball strategies, or new meta-game changes. It's why his early game execution was perfect from start to finish, but his late-game seemed to be surpassed by other more late-game focused zergs like ZerO, because Jaedong's killer instinct and early game strength allowed him to finish so many practice games early on. There's the problem with talent as well. Jaedong is not a superlative talent in my eyes. HiyA jokingly said that you can't trust Jaedong in 2v2 games, because he would win all the zergling battles, but would somehow find ways to still lose the game, and that's why he wasn't chosen for 2v2 games during his early years. Jaedong goes for early engineering bays to upgrade his marines in 3v3 hunter games. He isn't a lazy genius that Sea is. His career are the fruits of incredible discipline, dedication to the game, and immense mental fortitude with the belief that his efforts and skills at the game won't betray him, even if he is on the brink of defeat. These are all amazing traits for a professional player, and it's why Jaedong had so much success in his career despite not having the best talent, and being on a less than ideal team (which plays a vital role on a player's career). As a streamer that plays less than a dozen games a day, his wrists and age preventing him from spamming mass games, and being forced to interact with fans. Jaedong's return to form will be extremely limited in my humble opinion, probably to a greater extent than the other streamers. He is still my hero, but sometimes you just have to face the truth. I actually think Stork has a very good chance of ending up more successful than Jaedong in this next era, for many of the reasons you've cited here. Those who've followed BW a lot might not find that statement surprising, but I'm guessing most people would default to putting their money on Jaedong. Jaedong is a lot of incredible things but he wasn't quite a "genius of the game" to the level of some other guys. Part of this is he didn't have to when he was so much more mechanically skilled than almost everyone for much of his career, which gave him consistent advantages others couldn't count on. I think that further stunted his innovation potential. This next phase of Jaedong's BW career is going to be a fascinating case study on the respective values of "will to win" and preparation, because he'll probably still have plenty of the former but not as much of the latter. Not that I think will to win can replace preparation by any means but it is also worth something. Is it worth an extra 1 in 20 games? 1 in 10? 1 in 5? Is Jaedong going to become someone who overachieves in tournaments? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 04 2017 15:35 darktreb wrote: I actually think Stork has a very good chance of ending up more successful than Jaedong in this next era, for many of the reasons you've cited here. Those who've followed BW a lot might not find that statement surprising, but I'm guessing most people would default to putting their money on Jaedong. Jaedong is a lot of incredible things but he wasn't quite a "genius of the game" to the level of some other guys. Part of this is he didn't have to when he was so much more mechanically skilled than almost everyone for much of his career, which gave him consistent advantages others couldn't count on. I think that further stunted his innovation potential. This next phase of Jaedong's BW career is going to be a fascinating case study on the respective values of "will to win" and preparation, because he'll probably still have plenty of the former but not as much of the latter. Not that I think will to win can replace preparation by any means but it is also worth something. Is it worth an extra 1 in 20 games? 1 in 10? 1 in 5? Is Jaedong going to become someone who overachieves in tournaments? I miss the days (way before his prime in terms of achievements in 2009) when Jaedong when he would let top players of his era such as Flash, Bisu, and Luxury get the build order wins they wished, and watch these demi-gods turn that advantage into what seemed like insurmountable leads, then open my mouth in awe as Jaedong just out muscled them through sheer late-game execution. I never had that feeling since I watched NaDa play (althought the shock value was bigger for NaDa). Considering how NaDa's career wilted once his laziness caught up with him, and his mechanics alone wouldn't get him anywhere, I fear Jaedong may suffer the same fate in this era. There's no way in hell he can replicate his old practice regimen, so we'll have to see him succeed through other means that aided his professional career, such as incredible mental resilience, and that killer instinct. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On January 04 2017 15:35 darktreb wrote: I actually think Stork has a very good chance of ending up more successful than Jaedong in this next era, for many of the reasons you've cited here. Those who've followed BW a lot might not find that statement surprising, but I'm guessing most people would default to putting their money on Jaedong. Jaedong is a lot of incredible things but he wasn't quite a "genius of the game" to the level of some other guys. Part of this is he didn't have to when he was so much more mechanically skilled than almost everyone for much of his career, which gave him consistent advantages others couldn't count on. I think that further stunted his innovation potential. This next phase of Jaedong's BW career is going to be a fascinating case study on the respective values of "will to win" and preparation, because he'll probably still have plenty of the former but not as much of the latter. Not that I think will to win can replace preparation by any means but it is also worth something. Is it worth an extra 1 in 20 games? 1 in 10? 1 in 5? Is Jaedong going to become someone who overachieves in tournaments? i think his main strengths, as most people said, were preparation and execution. long-term strategy, he does not touch flash. in management, he cannot beat soulkey. i will pick him to come out ahead though, but hopefully it will be a great match. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 04 2017 18:38 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Letmelose, could you please share some stories of Jaedong's practice experience and struggles throughout the years as you did with Flash in the other thread? If you have shared some of those but I missed these posts, could you link me to them? A lot of these stories are taken from various interviews (on sites that have closed down since then), by various streamers after they retired, and fun side shows on Ongamenet. Most have its sources unavailable, so I can't remember the exact details. These are mostly from memory, so cannot really be trusted. Details may be off, the exact wording is definitely off, and the timing of these quotes may be wrong as well. 1) Tales from 2006 Nal_rA (during a stream): I practiced against Jaedong in preparation for sAviOr. He would take the extra effort to replicate sAviOr's exact style of play, and was extremely helpful. Anytime (during a television show): At first? I toyed with him (laughs). After a while, he became a monster. He became so monstrous I couldn't understand why he couldn't qualify for the individual leagues. 2) Tales from 2007 Mind (during an interview that was carried out during his championship run in GomTV MSL S3): I practiced against Jaedong in preparation for sAviOr. I learned a lot due to the heavy losses I suffered. 3) Tales from 2008 YellOw (during a television show): I don't watch games of other players. But I watch the games that Flash or Jaedong play. In these KTF MagicNs in-house rankings, Flash is amazing, it's unreal how he spends all his money, yet somehow has enough for another expansion. Then I watched Jaedong play, and he made Flash look ordinary, it's almost soul-crushing how good he is. How can I dare to make another come back with this kind of player around? Luxury (after he won against Bisu in Shinhan 2008 ProLeague Play-Offs): I learned a lot from Jaedong 2 weeks ago. Coloseum map is a hard map for ZvT, but I realized it's okay for ZvP, but after watching Jaedong on Coloseum, he wins against protoss whatever they happen to do. Stork (when asked about who is the best out of Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang): In terms of skill? Jaedong. JangBi (when asked about who is the best): Jaedong. He is a machine. free (during a stream): You couldn't beat Jaedong during practice. He was even better than in televised games, in televised games, you could beat him. Remember how I beat him in Clubday Online MSL (laughs)? 4) Tales from 2009 ZerO (after being asked the secret to his recent ZvZ success): I lost a ton playing versus Jaedong during practice. He is the ultimate boss in ZvZ. Bisu (during an interview): I was playing a random zerg player online. I lost ten games in a row versus him. I couldn't win at all, and I kept asking him if he was Jaedong or ZerO, but he wouldn't answer. TRUE told me that it was Jaedong's smurf. I was going to recommend this player to the coach if he wasn't recruited yet. Leta (during a television show): I lost a lost of games helping Jaedong practice for FanTaSy. UpMagic (during an interview): I was helping Jaedong out during his preparation for Batoo OGN StarLeague. I think Jaedong in posession of the best mechanics in the history of the game. 5) Tales from 2010 Sky (during a stream): Jaedong would never miss the number one spot on Hwaseung Oz during practice. We thought Central Plains was a zerg map because he wouldn't lose a single game on it. Then we had a practice session against Samsung Khan, and saw JangBi beat Jaedong to the ground. Then we realized how favoured the map was towards protoss. BeSt (during a stream): In-house ranking tournaments for SK Telecom T1 was really tough. We once had a practice session against Hwaseung Oz, and all the top six players in terms of practice results were from SK Telecom T1, with By.Sun as number one. Jaedong was the highest placed player from Hwaseung Oz as 7th. The next best Hwaseung Oz player was ranked 13th. 6) Tales from 2011 Sea (during a stream): I used to lose all the time against Jaedong. Then I started to use late-mech and won about half my games against him. Late-mech is broken. Jaehoon (during a stream): Jaedong would always get the first place during in-house team rankings. He would split the games with Sea, then come out ahead by having superior results against the rest of the field. He wouldn't lose games to protoss players. In summary, 2006~2007: Jaedong was rumoured to be even better than sAviOr during practice, but this was unconfirmed during official player interviews, but I remember reading a lot about the potential of Jaedong. 2008~2009: I don't think I have ever heard of any player saying a single negative word about Jaedong in terms of absolute skill during this era. Jaedong starts to slow down and practices about 11 hours a day, instead of his usual 16 hour daily practice marathons during the end of this period. 2010~2011: He starts to struggle heavily against late-mech during practice, and I start to hear rumours/confirmations of Jaedong having a negative record against players from other teams for the first time in his career. He still has an impeccable reputation in ZvP, but his other two match-ups doesn't seem to be as strong. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
They key to becoming the best, as before, in his eyes lies in ZvT. He considers relatively easier to become the best in ZvZ and ZvP. This is why, as before, JD will spend the most of his gametime practicing ZvT as this is the MU he struggles the most with. This will make his ZvZ and ZvP deteriorate meaning he would have been better in ZvZ and ZvP had he practiced those more and he will have harder time in those MUs as well. The result will be such because ZvT is the most unforgiving matchup and I believe adapting to the various challenges this MU presents (wrist exhaustion, late mech transition included) on these maps will be close to an impossible task. Jaedong is the player that executes the best micro and macro management in the cruicial 6th to 12th minute of the game in ZvT on modern maps in relatively standard korean game play. When you see his gasstation, hatchery and 4drone-saturation arrival at his newly made 3rd base in ZvT happen exactly at the same second, while during that time also maintaining extraordinary Mutalisk/Ling control vs the Terran army and macroing close to perfect, using his larvas to the best, you know the Z build order is close to perfect and can't get any better. Yet I have seen games vs Last where he excels flawlessly in order to see him lose in the next 2-3 minutes to Last's pressure while doing virtually no mistake, not to say being perfect. I do not doubt Last's skills but for a Z- staying sub 100mineral-100gas in ZvT while managing everything else close to perfect in this time frame is extremely hard and still losing relatively easy afterwards is beyond frustrating. This level of unforgiveness that occurs in the most high-level ZvT standardtized games before the T even begins the late switch is already too much. In practice, the key to JD's success in BW nowdays will be in being able to maintain 48%+ winrecord vs Last and Flash. This will eat up from his ZvZ and ZvP skills so it depends. Will he be able to learn from EffOrt's recent experience and strategies (as he seems to have the best winrecord vs these terrans)? Will his wrist allow for the needed practice? In relation to the ZvT another interesting question is if there is any viable solution to the late mech switch besides the very risky and expensive mass queen usage. He might be as disciplined, innovative and perfectly executing as he wants, but if there's no unit combo, he can't do much. Will mastering ZvT as he wants take too much time? etc. etc. | ||
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On January 04 2017 19:23 shadymmj wrote: i think his main strengths, as most people said, were preparation and execution. long-term strategy, he does not touch flash. in management, he cannot beat soulkey. i will pick him to come out ahead though, but hopefully it will be a great match. To clarify, I think Jaedong is more likely to beat Stork in their upcoming BO5. Neither player has been back for long, but Jaedong's been back longer. While Stork's looked good in his ASL games, he hasn't had to play PvZ. But I think over time, Stork can get further with less practice:
On the other hand, with Jaedong:
I hope I'm wrong, as BW would be so much more interesting if Jaedong was anywhere near peak form. And I'd never count Jaedong out of a BO5. He's one of those rare players where you can say "he's a winner" and have it not just be empty rhetoric. If Jaedong plays Flash in the ASL semi-finals, I think he absolutely has a chance to steal the series, as he'll be playing with no pressure, and it's one of those player matchups where it feels like skill difference matters much less than the personal history between the players. Calm vs Fantasy always felt like this for instance. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Shine's assessment of modern day zergs. 1) Jaedong: Gets in the driving seat of the games with pro-active play. 2) ZerO/SoulKey: They like drones. They go for the late-game even at the cost of giving away the initiative to the opposing players. 3) Calm: Very strategic, and adept at mind-games and one-off strategies. He knows how to win without being mechanically proficient. 4) herO: Taylored specifically against protoss. 5) EffOrt: Incredibly appealing in his playstyle. Very instinctive, and there's wit about his play. Taylored for messy games where his sudden moments of inspiration can shine the most. 6) hydra: Incredibly aggressive, but backed up with solid macro-management play. Slightly different from Jaedong. 7) Shine thinks Jaedong and EffOrt were the best zerg players. He stated it as if it were a fact. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 04 2017 20:12 Letmelose wrote: http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=stoccatore&logNo=220832790655&categoryNo=27&parentCategoryNo=0&viewDate=¤tPage=1&postListTopCurrentPage=1&from=postView 7) Shine thinks Jaedong and EffOrt were the best zerg players. He stated it as if it were a fact. It kinda is, isn't it? With maybe Hero at #3. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 04 2017 21:09 [[Starlight]] wrote: It kinda is, isn't it? With maybe Hero at #3. Depending on the era, sometimes yes, other times, no. Shine covered a lot of zergs over the years, including players like hydra who must have been judged by his performances during the professional era of Brood War. | ||
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 04 2017 21:23 Letmelose wrote: Depending on the era, sometimes yes, other times, no. Shine covered a lot of zergs over the years, including players like hydra who must have been judged by his performances during the professional era of Brood War. Well, you did say it was Shine's assessment of modern day Zergs. So I went by that, i.e. who's the best currently or in the pretty recent past. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4139 Posts
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darktreb
United States3016 Posts
On January 04 2017 22:00 Dante08 wrote: I think you guys are thinking too much. IMO it's really simple, with JD's ultra aggressive style it is not surprising he would take longer than others to get back to form. There are so many timings/nuances involved that only with time and practice can he fully grasp them again. Give him a few more months I'm sure he'll be playing much better. I'm not saying he won't be good. Just that I'm less confident he can get all the way back to near his peak skill, the way Bisu and Flash were able to relatively easily, because of what "peak skill" entails for him. I fully expect JD to be a top 3-5 Zerg soon if he's not already. But Bisu has been the best Protoss for most of the time he's been back, and Flash has been the best Terran, just like they were back in the day. That's the standard Jaedong's going to be held to as well, and I'm sure he wouldn't have it any other way. | ||
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